2014 Fleet Service Discussion

[WeAAsles]

Yes but your AA TWU is superior to US IAM.

Josh

Wrong. The reality is in timing and scale. US started from a lower wage tier than AA because it was growing together from the merger of AW and US to become larger. The combined entity never had the International scale that AA had and 2 BK's gutted pay and benefits. AA had 2 of there own let's not forget, 2003 concessions and the actual BK itself. But we were still higher up the ladder so the cuts didn't appear as deep. By percentages though we all took roughly the same hits when you compare the two groups.

And BTW my guys were very impressed that the IAM negotiators were able to secure the Station Staffing language that they did. The rest I assumed was a given after the merger was finalized but that SCOPE language even threw me for a loop and was well done work. 

 

[737823]

If your guys are impressed with what the IAM has done like Robbed they have been conditioned to set their expectations ridiculously low. Yes AA is only in 17 stations but they are the 17 largest stations that matter, no use giving away the store to keep more head count. If anything the TWU should have stuck with 10-12 stations and gotten a better base wage. That would have killed ATL, LAS, SAT, STL, and TPA.

Josh

 

[cltrat]

you're correct I did say that and still stand by it. anyone who brought that agreement should be  held accountable.
 
the recently passed agreement has much better scope in it
 
what  the new joint deal will have I don't know but yes that UA deal will be a point of discussion
 
 
If I had to pick one I'd take IAM over the TWU though I couldn't be called a huge fan of either I just understand they are needed in this industry.
You as your post history will show,the only thing you might hate more than USairways is the IAM so your opinions on them are o be taken with a bit of a grain of salt.

 

[WeAAsles]

If your guys are impressed with what the IAM has done like Robbed they have been conditioned to set their expectations ridiculously low. Yes AA is only in 17 stations but they are the 17 largest stations that matter, no use giving away the store to keep more head count. If anything the TWU should have stuck with 10-12 stations and gotten a better base wage. That would have killed ATL, LAS, SAT, STL, and TPA.

Josh

That's all subjective depending on a particular individuals point of view? Sure I could be making $30.00 per hour had our negotiators given up all the out stations, bagrooms and other non core work but who's to say in the seniority structure that my 19 year head wouldn't have been on the chopping block?

And what you fail constantly to point out is that these were concessions in a Bankruptcy case. There are no forward expectations under that scenario. The forward expectations will come during the negotiations that are ahead now after the merger which has put the company in a much better footing to provide.

 

[737823]

That's all subjective depending on a particular individuals point of view? Sure I could be making $30.00 per hour had our negotiators given up all the out stations, bagrooms and other non core work but who's to say in the seniority structure that my 19 year head wouldn't have been on the chopping block?
And what you fail constantly to point out is that these were concessions in a Bankruptcy case. There are no forward expectations under that scenario. The forward expectations will come during the negotiations that are ahead now after the merger which has put the company in a much better footing to provide.

But how and why should TWU members in the five hubs and locations like BOS, DCA, SFO that are relatively high cost places to live and actually have sizable AA operations give away the store so people in ATL, LAS,SAT, SJU, STL, and TPA stay on the headcount? To me that is wrong, everyone can keep saying US IAM scope is better but thy have away the store to get the scope they have now.

Until recently UA had people in places like Columbus and Harrisburg PA which are largely/exclusively Express stations and don't need mainline personnel.

Josh

 

[WeAAsles]

But how and why should TWU members in the five hubs and locations like BOS, DCA, SFO that are relatively high cost places to live and actually have sizable AA operations give away the store so people in ATL, LAS,SAT, SJU, STL, and TPA stay on the headcount? To me that is wrong, everyone can keep saying US IAM scope is better but thy have away the store to get the scope they have now.

Until recently UA had people in places like Columbus and Harrisburg PA which are largely/exclusively Express stations and don't need mainline personnel.

Josh

They didn't give away the store. We lost on future money in benefits mostly which yes we do have to make up. The reality is that the high COLA areas do not hold the vote and anything that provided them more relief over DFW would have been rejected by the membership. That's reality.

I am a proponent of COLA depending on where members live and work but that could be difficult considering the two largest hubs in the new AA are DFW and CLT which are low COLA areas. 

How do you convince greedy people that they should provide some relief to their brothers and sisters in the area's you quoted?

 

[737823]

What I don't get is everyone in here keeps harping on Freedom saying he sold out the small stations (he was one vote) in the 2008 agreement yet defend the UA agreement in a single breath saying the membership ratified it (after being lied to and mislead about LOAs and the contact language). If the US scope in 2008 was deficient then now is the current scope any better now? Why was it ok to sell out the small stations at UA but not US? You work in a hub WeAA, AA is the single largest employer in Dade County and a big part of our local economy. You should get paid more and the small stations vendored out, people can move to the hubs after all as 700 said "no one is guaranteed a job in their city for the life of their career".

Josh

 

[robbedagain]

Current scope the company cannot sell out unless the flights goes below 7 a week..... the scope is hell of a lot better. Since this contract went effect u have not seen hardly anyone harping on freedom. May be he learned from the past may be he didnt time will tell when the time comes to vote on a JCBA. But the bottom line is josh the scope gave us far more protection now than 08. And the wages went up too

 

[WeAAsles]

What I don't get is everyone in here keeps harping on Freedom saying he sold out the small stations (he was one vote) in the 2008 agreement yet defend the UA agreement in a single breath saying the membership ratified it (after being lied to and mislead about LOAs and the contact language). If the US scope in 2008 was deficient then now is the current scope any better now? Why was it ok to sell out the small stations at UA but not US? You work in a hub WeAA, AA is the single largest employer in Dade County and a big part of our local economy. You should get paid more and the small stations vendored out, people can move to the hubs after all as 700 said "no one is guaranteed a job in their city for the life if their career".

Josh

I don't consider that those members were lied to. Yes the pamphlet that was sent out was very colorful and eye catching and did highlight the improvements over items that were not so good. But the reality still stands that many of those stations were not protected and were going to be closed by UAL whether or not the TA was ratified. And you know that's a fact. There was nothing the IAM negotiators could do about that. They were handed a shitty deal from the IBT prior contract language. Members were given jobs in other locations for the most part whether they wanted them or not. Either way they had no choice. 

That's not where we stand. Both Unions have language that protects small stations.

"You work in a hub WeAA, AA is the single largest employer in Dade County and a big part of our local economy. You should get paid more and the small stations vendored out, people can move to the hubs after all as 700 said "no one is guaranteed a job in their city for the life if their career"

Maybe you're right and maybe you're not? As an individual I have to live with the consequences of my actions or the vote I make. Am I comfortable making that decision even though yes it does benefit the majority over the minority? Am I just helping the majority against the minority and are they who are the minority being selfish for their own wants as well?

Your comment is more of a philosophical dilemma that I'm not sure I would want to have to make and if I was a negotiator could I be cold enough to say economically I have to agree with you?

Star Trek:

"The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few, or the one" 

 

[737823]

WeAA:
Do you support closing the small stations (especially USAIR) so the hubs can get $30+ hour? Most of the AMTs on here support that view. The agents I know at MIA don't like the CWA because they want to keep people in small stations like Pensacola, Sarasota, etc that are USAIR and don't see any mainline.

Josh

 

[Jester]

"The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few, or the one" 

Careful with "Greater Good" arguments, as your next trip to the E.R. for a broken leg may lead to cannibalizing of your heart, liver, kidneys, skin, cornea, etc. as there are many more people in "need" to keep them alive and you are just one.
 
 

 
Scapegoating is one of the few things local management is able to do competently at my station so I hold the opposite opinion.

Greatest union recruiting tool ever created... lousy Managers who abuse workers.

 

[WeAAsles]

WeAA:
Do you support closing the small stations (especially USAIR) so the hubs can get $30+ hour? Most of the AMTs on here support that view. The agents I know at MIA don't like the CWA because they want to keep people in small stations like Pensacola, Sarasota, etc that are USAIR and don't see any mainline.

Josh

The one thing I have absolutely admitted to agreeing with and supporting is "Cost Of Living Allowances" COLA. No I do not think that people in DFW, CLT and PHX should make the same wages as people in NY, PHL, BOS and MIA. But that's also why I've used the phrase "Creative Solutions". I don't believe small stations should be closed just to benefit me or us. 

UAL, IAM did try to have a solution by negotiating against the sub contractors but there was no way they were going to beat those rates and no way that I would have stuck around if they did. So what would be the solution though? No again I don't support a big FU to the small stations so that one is out for me. A wage cap or freeze? A slight wage reduction with a guarantee that people can leave or stay if they want?

We'd be ridiculous to think that the company is not going to come after those small stations. So the question is how long and how rigid should we be meanwhile making the majority wait for gains?

 

[WeAAsles]

Careful with "Greater Good" arguments, as your next trip to the E.R. for a broken leg may lead to cannibalizing of your heart, liver, kidneys, skin, cornea, etc. as there are many more people in "need" to keep them alive and you are just one.

Good point Jester. Balance and compromise should be made on both sides though.
 
 
Greatest union recruiting tool ever created... lousy Managers who abuse workers.

 

[737823]

The one thing I have absolutely admitted to agreeing with and supporting is "Cost Of Living Allowances" COLA. No I do not think that people in DFW, CLT and PHX should make the same wages as people in NY, PHL, BOS and MIA. But that's also why I've used the phrase "Creative Solutions". I don't believe small stations should be closed just to benefit me or us. 

UAL, IAM did try to have a solution by negotiating against the sub contractors but there was no way they were going to beat those rates and no way that I would have stuck around if they did. So what would be the solution though? No again I don't support a big FU to the small stations so that one is out for me. A wage cap or freeze? A slight wage reduction with a guarantee that people can leave or stay if they want?

We'd be ridiculous to think that the company is not going to come after those small stations. So the question is how long and how rigid should we be meanwhile making the majority wait for gains?

I wonder what BLUTO thinks. He supports keeping catering not sure about cargo.

Josh

 

[WeAAsles]

I wonder what BLUTO thinks. He supports keeping catering not sure about cargo.

Josh

I support both and reacquiring cabin service as well. I'm not a fan of anyone touching my aircraft when I work it accept my own Brothers and Sisters. That goes for fueling the aircraft as well.