2014 Fleet Service Discussion

[Jimmy Neutron]

 
I know who JN is. His post his spot off. Never held a union position. Never served on a NC. Never been involved. Your endorsement speaks volumes. He has the luxury of playing Monday Morning Quarterback. One who continues to believe the company will do what is right and fair to the Fleet Service. One who follows false prophets and votes for leadership teams who campaign on empty promises. One who expects a Leadership Team to bring the company to their knees while sitting on the sidelines and not getting involved. One who assigns blame to the union instead of the company. You're right... I know JN, Tim Nelson and many others who fall into this category. Your endorsement of JN speaks volumes Tim.
 

I'm glad you know more about me than I know about myself 🙂 and your WRONG --- been involved, but that's besides the point -- what speaks VOLUMES (OGRAC) is the ONLY thing I point out is FACTS !!!!! Facts about what the NC has been saying all along, facts about what they say about SECTION 6 and LEVERAGE, FACTS about how they have been telling THIS MEMBERSHIP that they MUST DO, what they have to do (( FREEDOM )) to ACTUALLY move those companies EYELASHES that WE ARE INDEED PISSED off and won't settle for sub-standard treatment --- FACTS where we were told about certain (( 6 ITEMS)) that would NOT be compromised to reach an agreement !!!!!!
 
 If you TRULY did know me, I deal very logically in FACTS !!!!!! The truth here is, the company withheld what was rightfully OURS in the first place, so long, knowing that just like a pack of hungry wolves, if you throw ONE piece of meat into the den, there will be a bloodbath between the pack to get even ONE BITE of that meat !!!! THIS IS A FACT !!!
 
If you read my posts, you would have seen that I DID NOT BLAME any one person or the NC in whole --- but the entire process and between the Govt. and the REAL enemy (( The Company )) the membership,  (( THAT"S US - YOU and I INCLUDED-- )) Are really the ones who failed to MOVE THAT meter ---- I see it EVERY DAY when I come to work, guys running around like maniacs making sure the operation is absolutely TOP- NOTCH, breaking EVERY one of the COMPANIES own ((SAFETY POLICIES )) that are in place to do just that, unloading bulked out 321 bins by themselves, and the list goes on and on and on ............................... So DON'T throw stones OGRAC ---- LOOK AT THE FACTS !!!!! THEY DON'T LIE

 

[Jimmy Neutron]

Just being realistic JN. Exactly what has been your involvement in the union and the negotiation process in the past? Have you ever served on a Negotiating Committee?  I'm guessing not; with such misguided expectations. Your post reveals a complete ignorance of the company's posture in negotiations. The company could give at rat's arse about what you feel you are entitled to or what is fair! You are viewed as nothing but a liability to this company. One step at a time brother. With all that was taken, through two bankruptcies, it will take more than one contract to regain everything. I STAND MY GROUND! Why has it taken so long? Simple; the company was not willing to negotiate in good faith until they had the groundwork laid for the AA merger. Remember; it takes two parties to negotiate in good faith. Only after the groundwork was laid and the company needed SCS filing did the negotiations begin in good faith. Additionally, The 'snapbacks" other groups have realized that you refer to were rejected the last go around by our membership in pursuit of a "better second offer".      
 

And for some reason --- YOU think I'm NOT well aware of ALL of this --- YOU, need to go back and re-read what I said !!! and when the company tells the NC -- that we won't budge another inch, because they know for a fact that those crumbs they threw on the floor will be gobbled up so fast !! that's what speaks VOLUMES here !!!! Maybe that SCOPE will buy you enough time to get to retirement !!! Just sayin'

 

[WeAAsles]

APFA Update:

This week your JNC met in Philadelphia and continued negotiations. Sections in discussion this week were:

• Hours of Service
• Vacation
• International Flying 
• Crew Rest
• Reserve
• Leaves of Absence
• Crew Accommodation

We will continue to keep you up-to-date as we continue down the path to a Joint Collective Bargaining Agreement (JCBA).

As of today, there are 30 face-to-face scheduled meetings remaining between the JNC and the Company in the 150-day path to a Joint Agreement as agreed to in the Negotiations Protocol Agreement (NPA).

http://us1.campaign-archive1.com/?u=1450c9c25bd3b5096022a9f71&id=a650991259&e=00890ede63

 

[Tim Nelson]

Prez
how does this letter guarantee anything for fleet service now?

 

[WeAAsles]

PHXConx,

You have given Tim the information he needs but as you can see, he will never give you an answer. He is not dumb, he has an agenda and will only post to accomplish his agenda. I personally like that you are hammering him but in the end you will not get an honest dialogue with him.

P. Rez

[/QUOTE]
It seems to me that Tim's agenda is one long ongoing campaign to derail anything that may benefit the membership moving forward? If it can't be accomplished through honest means he'll attempt it through deceit and confusion. My guess is after the vote for the TA is over his next agenda will be against the Association vote and then onto whatever comes from JCBA talks. I don't completely understand what his motivation is but I do know that he can't be ignored, because whatever dissension he attempts to cultivate if he's left alone it could cause to grow.

 

[mike33]

APFA Update:

This week your JNC met in Philadelphia and continued negotiations. Sections in discussion this week were:

• Hours of Service
• Vacation
• International Flying 
• Crew Rest
• Reserve
• Leaves of Absence
• Crew Accommodation

We will continue to keep you up-to-date as we continue down the path to a Joint Collective Bargaining Agreement (JCBA).

As of today, there are 30 face-to-face scheduled meetings remaining between the JNC and the Company in the 150-day path to a Joint Agreement as agreed to in the Negotiations Protocol Agreement (NPA).

http://us1.campaign-archive1.com/?u=1450c9c25bd3b5096022a9f71&id=a650991259&e=00890ede63

This is a sign that the company may be a decent, not good, but decent bargainer for its future and the future of its employees. It is not all Doom and Gloom as some think. CBA negotiating, especially from BK recovery mode,  is much like the Stock market. When it takes a tumble, it usually takes 5-10 yrs to fully recover.  It's a Sh**y process, but nonetheless, it is still a process........Yes this TA gives up Sec 6 leverage. But it is progress nonetheless........This is what i mean regarding companies attitude going forward in regards to the FA TA.
 
" FOURTH: The NPA provides that if an agreement is not reached and/or ratified, a panel of arbitrators will decide the outstanding disputes.

FIFTH: The arbitration must begin 90 days after the disputes are submitted to the panel and an award must be issued no later than 30 days after the first day of the hearing.

FINALLY: The arbitrators’ decision must provide a joint contract that is (1) “market based in the aggregate;' with the “market” defined as United, Continental and Delta; and (2) greater in aggregate value than the existing AA Agreement as applied to pre-merger American Flight Attendants and greater than the US Agreement as applied to pre-merger US Airways Flight Attendants."
 
Also only the disputed items are arbitrated.................

 

 

[mike33]

Prez
how does this letter guarantee anything for fleet service now?

Seems to me that the only guarantee is you getting a (-) neg comment on all your posts........lol

 

[ograc]

I'm glad you know more about me than I know about myself 🙂 and your WRONG --- been involved, but that's besides the point -- what speaks VOLUMES (OGRAC) is the ONLY thing I point out is FACTS !!!!! Facts about what the NC has been saying all along, facts about what they say about SECTION 6 and LEVERAGE, FACTS about how they have been telling THIS MEMBERSHIP that they MUST DO, what they have to do (( FREEDOM )) to ACTUALLY move those companies EYELASHES that WE ARE INDEED PISSED off and won't settle for sub-standard treatment --- FACTS where we were told about certain (( 6 ITEMS)) that would NOT be compromised to reach an agreement !!!!!!
 
 If you TRULY did know me, I deal very logically in FACTS !!!!!! The truth here is, the company withheld what was rightfully OURS in the first place, so long, knowing that just like a pack of hungry wolves, if you throw ONE piece of meat into the den, there will be a bloodbath between the pack to get even ONE BITE of that meat !!!! THIS IS A FACT !!!
 
If you read my posts, you would have seen that I DID NOT BLAME any one person or the NC in whole --- but the entire process and between the Govt. and the REAL enemy (( The Company )) the membership,  (( THAT"S US - YOU and I INCLUDED-- )) Are really the ones who failed to MOVE THAT meter ---- I see it EVERY DAY when I come to work, guys running around like maniacs making sure the operation is absolutely TOP- NOTCH, breaking EVERY one of the COMPANIES own ((SAFETY POLICIES )) that are in place to do just that, unloading bulked out 321 bins by themselves, and the list goes on and on and on ............................... So DON'T throw stones OGRAC ---- LOOK AT THE FACTS !!!!! THEY DON'T LIE

You are correct JN; a Negotiating Committee is only as strong as the membership they represent. What you and I see every day, concerning the work habits of the group, the company sees as well. The company knows this group is starving for what has been sacrificed in the past. The trouble is the company has taken so much they know they only have to return items to a CBA a little at a time. Through two bankruptcies there was not one Article of the 1999 CBA, regarding compensation, that wasn't compromised. There is so much to be regained you and I will be retired before it is all won back (opinion). There were statements made to the membership during negotiations. There were items achieved and not achieved with this agreement. That's negotiations. Neither party walks away with everything they came in for. As with any CBA negotiations there is always "sabre rattling" from both parties. Is this TA everything for everyone? No. I do believe it's a good first step and it puts us in a good position when we enter into JCBA negotiations. 

 

[WeAAsles]

This is a sign that the company may be a decent, not good, but decent bargainer for its future and the future of its employees. It is not all Doom and Gloom as some think. CBA negotiating, especially from BK recovery mode,  is much like the Stock market. When it takes a tumble, it usually takes 5-10 yrs to fully recover.  It's a Sh**y process, but nonetheless, it is still a process........Yes this TA gives up Sec 6 leverage. But it is progress nonetheless........This is what i mean regarding companies attitude going forward in regards to the FA TA.
 
" FOURTH: The NPA provides that if an agreement is not reached and/or ratified, a panel of arbitrators will decide the outstanding disputes.

FIFTH: The arbitration must begin 90 days after the disputes are submitted to the panel and an award must be issued no later than 30 days after the first day of the hearing.

FINALLY: The arbitrators’ decision must provide a joint contract that is (1) “market based in the aggregate;' with the “market” defined as United, Continental and Delta; and (2) greater in aggregate value than the existing AA Agreement as applied to pre-merger American Flight Attendants and greater than the US Agreement as applied to pre-merger US Airways Flight Attendants."
 
Also only the disputed items are arbitrated.................

 

I like the premise that the APFA and the company adopted for their negotiations. The biggest issue we would have with agreeing to something similar though would be our Station Staffing language. Knowing what's going on over at UAL and Delta having second class stations it could crucify us if we took it before an arbitrator? That would be about the only area where it shouldn't be taken out of the Unions hands for bargaining. Basically IMO I would want an agreement in place for station staffing before going into any agreement for fast track bargaining.

 

[Black Magic]

Has the IAM leadership had to take salary cuts during the last rounds of bk's?

 

[mike33]

I like the premise that the APFA and the company adopted for their negotiations. The biggest issue we would have with agreeing to something similar though would be our Station Staffing language. Knowing what's going on over at UAL and Delta having second class stations it could crucify us if we took it before an arbitrator? That would be about the only area where it shouldn't be taken out of the Unions hands for bargaining. Basically IMO I would want an agreement in place for station staffing before going into any agreement for fast track bargaining.

  I do agree with you. I was looking more at the negotiating strategies now in relation to previous. Our classification situation is a whole different animal when it comes to arbitrations.....

 

[PHXConx]

The letter deals with 2018.  What are you talking about regarding our health care right now? 

without the letter now....
 
which is an assurance of we will negotiate with the company in good faith to keep the plans within the law in 2018
 
the company would have had to renegotiate our plans right now... to guarantee no excise tax right now... not until necessary in  2018. if we wouldnt agree to negotiating later, and only at the imposition of an excise tax.  
 
So we would have to either accept the 2018 plans right now...  at the expense of everything we won in this TA including what you yourself said was most important, SCOPE.
 
The union would not reasonably accept 2018 plans now, but the company can not afford to risk the multi million dollar tax that would be imposed by the IRS who is trying to make it too expensive for the company to offer those plans.. the point of the cadillac plan penalty in the first place
 
so letter of compromise or new plans, since the union would not agree to that we would have never gotten out of section 6 the nmb would have never released us, and we would be in stalemate so for the next four years 
 
no scope protections
no pay raises 
no vacation changes 
no changes to sick policy
no shift trade improvements
no comp day improvements 
no dat day improvements
no increase in pension
no merger seniority protection
 
 
 
none of that, because you think the union should  hold it all off for caps in our costs for plans that we would never be able to keep because they go over the excise tax and the company will  never budge over...
 
so the letter was the compromise.  we understood the company's dilemma  and it understood ours.  we understand they will not fold on the excise tax issue, and we wont fold on losing coverage now over something that might happen in four years...  
 
This is why ALL the other unions have agreed to the same compromise.  because its better for their membership to keep the best plans for as long as possible.  then deal with it when the law written by congress forces us to...  this is what you get for being a good team player, WE Labor unions should have used our considerable leverage with politicians to insure that this excise tax would have never affected us, but the unions fell in line  and defended the bill... and now we will pay the price of it in 2018.   
 
Obama care is coming, we defended it, we campaigned for it, and now we are going to pay for it.  
 
http://www.forbes.com/sites/theapothecary/2013/08/06/labor-unions-latest-problem-obamacares-cadillac-tax-harms-their-gold-plated-health-insurance-plans/

 

[PHXConx]

Prez
how does this letter guarantee anything for fleet service now?

without it we would not have a contract... 
 
do you not still think that scope was the most important thing? because we would have never gotten a ta without that letter... period...  
 
you do see why that scope language was more important to our membership now... dont you?
 
what good is health care if your station was closed due to no scope language?  
 
"it sucks that i have no job, but at least those that do have a cap in their health care costs...  that was a well fought victory"

 

[WeAAsles]

July 12, 2014 update — District 141 Officer election results appear below, and tabulation of votes will be available early next week. Congratulations to ALL the candidates, and thanks to all Brothers and Sisters for their vigorous participation and years of service.

http://iam141.org/election/results.html

Congratulations to everyone who stood up to be a part of the Democratic process.

 

[700UW]

http://iam141.org/election/results.html