2014 Fleet Service Discussion

[ograc]

Your kidding me, right ?????? I've been around plenty long enough to know that this particular group will NEVER get back probably HALF of what we lost in the past, but be realistic here, CARGO -------Doing your math, 2-3 contracts under this catch and stall negotiating concept under the Railway Labor Act will set us out what --- 20 years ?????? not sure about YOU, but WE don't have 20 years !!!!!!!!! This was supposed to be the one    ----- According to the UNION itself (( Section 6  )) that WE, had and will have THE MOST LEVERAGE we will ever have ---- So explain to me, exactly what all that time negotiating with NOW, not only the most profitable airline in the world, but the largest ---- GOT US ?????   Like I said, most of our raises are only bringing us back to where we would have been anyways had the company HONORED our current agreement, and things like the extra weeks vacation are things that other groups have had back for years now !!!! Hell, we didn't even get PROFIT SHARING back ?????????? So yes, when I say that we should have at least been made whole on the company being held responsible for giving us those raises in RETRO, --- I STAND MY GROUND FIRMLY on that, ---- BE realistic,, if you want to wait another 20 years for 2-3 more contracts, then you've already thrown in the towel and given up !!!!!!!! SAD

Just being realistic JN. Exactly what has been your involvement in the union and the negotiation process in the past? Have you ever served on a Negotiating Committee?  I'm guessing not; with such misguided expectations. Your post reveals a complete ignorance of the company's posture in negotiations. The company could give at rat's arse about what you feel you are entitled to or what is fair! You are viewed as nothing but a liability to this company. One step at a time brother. With all that was taken, through two bankruptcies, it will take more than one contract to regain everything. I STAND MY GROUND! Why has it taken so long? Simple; the company was not willing to negotiate in good faith until they had the groundwork laid for the AA merger. Remember; it takes two parties to negotiate in good faith. Only after the groundwork was laid and the company needed SCS filing did the negotiations begin in good faith. Additionally, The 'snapbacks" other groups have realized that you refer to were rejected the last go around by our membership in pursuit of a "better second offer".      

 

 

[Tim Nelson]

...
Its called a compromise, another multisyllabic word you have no idea the meaning of.  it gives us 4 years or more of health care plans we have come to enjoy.  it gives the company the guarantee that in four years(or more) if the plan gets hit with an excise tax that the union will work with them to fix it.  And if the union is run by idiots that will bet the farm instead of negotiate in good faith it gives the company the ability to 
 
 
and another multisyllabic word you do not understand the meaning of arbitrator.  
 
ar·bi·tra·tor

ˈärbiˌtrātər/

noun
noun: arbitrator; plural noun: arbitrators

1.  
2. 
   
   
   
   an independent person or body officially appointed to settle a dispute.
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   synonyms:
   adjudicator, arbiter, judge, referee, umpire; 
   
   
   mediator, conciliator,intervenor, intercessor, go-between
   "the litigants met with a court-appointed arbitrator"
    
    
   
   
   
   
   
   
   

Most of your post was senselessness.  What remained was utterly absurd.  First off, there is no compromise in that health care letter.  The union has 90 days to beg for mercy, then the bloody arbitrator does this, "an arbitrator determines the modifications.  Of course the arbitrator has to guarantee that his/her whack job will be enough to wish away any ole tax away from being a burden for the bloody company.  What's worse, mate, is that if he can't guarantee, then the bloody plan gets terminated.  Me thinks that not so good.  errrrrrrrr
 
BTW, the union couldn't convince the company that it should pay no attention to the tax behind the curtain, and with plenty reason.  BTW, there is a very real increase in the risk that we already know exist today.  If the Republicans water down some aspects of Obamacare, some analyst are claiming it would weaken Obamacare and make it twice as burdensome.  So, put the kool aid down, nobody knows what Obama care is going to look like in 2018.  Another hammer comes from the Supreme Court next week in which I suspect the Republicans may lose regarding the exchanges but make no mistake, this will be even a bigger mess in 2018 than I'm even giving it credit for.  It's a big political crap shot.

 

[Tim Nelson]

Just being realistic JN. Exactly what has been your involvement in the union and the negotiation process in the past? Have you ever served on a Negotiating Committee?  I'm guessing not; with such misguided expectations. Your post reveals a complete ignorance of the company's posture in negotiations. The company could give at rat's arse about what you feel you are entitled to or what is fair! You are viewed as nothing but a liability to this company. One step at a time brother. With all that was taken, through two bankruptcies, it will take more than one contract to regain everything. I STAND MY GROUND! Why has it taken so long? Simple; the company was not willing to negotiate in good faith until they had the groundwork laid for the AA merger. Remember; it takes two parties to negotiate in good faith. Only after the groundwork was laid and the company needed SCS filing did the negotiations begin in good faith. Additionally, The 'snapbacks" other groups have realized that you refer to were rejected the last go around by our membership in pursuit of a "better second offer".      
 

You know Jimmy Neutron and he is a very reasonable guy.  His post is 'spot on'.

 

[WeAAsles]

Most of your post was senselessness.  What remained was utterly absurd.  First off, there is no compromise in that health care letter.  The union has 90 days to beg for mercy, then the bloody arbitrator does this, "an arbitrator determines the modifications.  Of course the arbitrator has to guarantee that his/her whack job will be enough to wish away any ole tax away from being a burden for the bloody company.  What's worse, mate, is that if he can't guarantee, then the bloody plan gets terminated.  Me thinks that not so good.  errrrrrrrr
 
BTW, the union couldn't convince the company that it should pay no attention to the tax behind the curtain, and with plenty reason.  BTW, there is a very real increase in the risk that we already know exist today.  If the Republicans water down some aspects of Obamacare, some analyst are claiming it would weaken Obamacare and make it twice as burdensome.  So, put the kool aid down, nobody knows what Obama care is going to look like in 2018.  Another hammer comes from the Supreme Court next week in which I suspect the Republicans may lose regarding the exchanges but make no mistake, this will be even a bigger mess in 2018 than I'm even giving it credit for.  It's a big political crap shot.

Tim I just re-looked at everything and you were right about it all. In 2018 we're doomed and it's going to cost us all $300.00 for a stinking band-aid.

Oh well.

Next.

 

[WeAAsles]

Some unions will face a decision about whether to bargain for increased wages instead of health ben-
efits. If a large number of union members are eligible for subsidized coverage in the exchange, those
workers may be better off receiving the amount an employer would have contributed to their health
benefits in the form of higher wages and purchasing subsidized coverage in the exchange. The suit-
ability of this approach will be highly dependent on the specific circumstances of each workplace. In
general, workers and employers may be better off forgoing group health insurance if the cost to the
employer of providing group coverage is more than the cost of paying the penalty and providing wage
increases sufficient to enable workers to purchase coverage through the exchange after taxes.

http://laborcenter.berkeley.edu/healthpolicy/acaguide12.pdf

 

[Tim Nelson]

Tim I just re-looked at everything and you were right about it all. In 2018 we're doomed and it's going to cost us all $300.00 for a stinking band-aid.

Oh well.

Next.

Maybe generic band-aids would be cheaper.  The health care is toast in 3.5 years. Live healthy today!

 

[Tim Nelson]

 
Some unions will face a decision about whether to bargain for increased wages instead of health ben-
efits. If a large number of union members are eligible for subsidized coverage in the exchange, those
workers may be better off receiving the amount an employer would have contributed to their health
benefits in the form of higher wages and purchasing subsidized coverage in the exchange. The suit-
ability of this approach will be highly dependent on the specific circumstances of each workplace. In
general, workers and employers may be better off forgoing group health insurance if the cost to the
employer of providing group coverage is more than the cost of paying the penalty and providing wage
increases sufficient to enable workers to purchase coverage through the exchange after taxes.

http://laborcenter.berkeley.edu/healthpolicy/acaguide12.pdf
 

So why did we let the company off the hook without a cap on the health care?  Why just cough it up with a blank check and give the company a free pass out of its obligations?

 

[WeAAsles]

Will he read it? Will he? C'mon Tim, read. You can do it. C'mon now. I am going to have faith that Tim will read it. 

 

[WeAAsles]

So why did we let the company off the hook without a cap on the health care?  Why just cough it up with a blank check and give the company a free pass out of its obligations?

This message is sponsored by the Legal Team of Nelson, Nelson and Mellonhead.

If you've been frightened and scared by a skinny educated Black man calling himself The President of the United States, give us a call. You may have a case.

We'll get you the healthcare you deserve. 

 

[ograc]

You know Jimmy Neutron and he is a very reasonable guy.  His post is 'spot on'.

 
I know who JN is. His post his spot off. Never held a union position. Never served on a NC. Never been involved. Your endorsement speaks volumes. He has the luxury of playing Monday Morning Quarterback. One who continues to believe the company will do what is right and fair to the Fleet Service. One who follows false prophets and votes for leadership teams who campaign on empty promises. One who expects a Leadership Team to bring the company to their knees while sitting on the sidelines and not getting involved. One who assigns blame to the union instead of the company. You're right... I know JN, Tim Nelson and many others who fall into this category. Your endorsement of JN speaks volumes Tim.
 

 

[PHXConx]

Most of your post was senselessness.  What remained was utterly absurd. 
 

 
oh look he found a multi-syllabic word that he knew the meaning of amazing!!!  you calling my post names is actually senseless... but what can you do lol 
 
 

 
 First off, there is no compromise in that health care letter.  The union has 90 days to beg for mercy, then the bloody arbitrator does this, "an arbitrator determines the modifications.  Of course the arbitrator has to guarantee that his/her whack job will be enough to wish away any ole tax away from being a burden for the bloody company.  What's worse, mate, is that if he can't guarantee, then the bloody plan gets terminated.  Me thinks that not so good.  errrrrrrrr

 
no  sh|t stupid... the letter is the compromise... 
 
you can either have the letter. which guarantees the membership their current well liked health care plans, all of them. for the next 4 years.
 
or you can have new substandard health care.. for right now and the next four years and possibly  beyond
 
the fact you cant get this simple premise is scary..  
 
 

BTW, the union couldn't convince the company that it should pay no attention to the tax behind the curtain, and with plenty reason.  BTW, there is a very real increase in the risk that we already know exist today.  If the Republicans water down some aspects of Obamacare, some analyst are claiming it would weaken Obamacare and make it twice as burdensome.  So, put the kool aid down, nobody knows what Obama care is going to look like in 2018.  Another hammer comes from the Supreme Court next week in which I suspect the Republicans may lose regarding the exchanges but make no mistake, this will be even a bigger mess in 2018 than I'm even giving it credit for.  It's a big political crap shot.
[/QUOTE] 
what do you think the supreme court is going to do next week?  since its in summer recess???  look out for that hammer oh.... its coming,,, here it is....  wait never mind...  talk about kool aide drinking wow... seriously wow...  
 
in your attempt to seem like you know whats going on with the law, you failed miserably...  nothing new though...  

 

[PHXConx]

So why did we let the company off the hook without a cap on the health care?  Why just cough it up with a blank check and give the company a free pass out of its obligations?

you do realize that your idiotic cap in costs wont ever come to fruition because the company is going to cut costs of the plans to avoid the excise tax so much we would never get close to the spending cap...
 
again you are missing the point...  
 
the letter gives us our plans for 4 years.. maybe a lil more... if obama care stays the way it is..
 
If the law changes, if the exemption of our price goes up, ie instead of 27500 it goes to 30000 thus allowing more plans in without the excise tax the letter is less likely going to happen.  
 
If they repeal obama care (not likely) but if they do, then the letter doesnt come into play.
 
IF they give unions a pass... then the letter becomes moot...
 
you were right earlier we dont know what ocare will look like in 2018, but we do know what it looks like now, and the company wants the assurance that we will negotiate in good faith to keep the price low.  to keep the chance of an excise tax, without that assurance then they will have to negotiate now with substandard plans, i know you understand this...  you cant be this stupid...  you cant possibly want the membership to have substandard post 2018 health care plans now... noone who wants to be leadership in the union can possibly want something so horrible for their membership.  if they do they should be forced out of the union and tar and feathered for good measure... im being serious anyone that wants to force the membership to accept needlessly lower standard health care, has no business being in a union, let alone in a leadership position 

 

[Tim Nelson]

 
I know who JN is. His post his spot off. Never held a union position. Never served on a NC. Never been involved. Your endorsement speaks volumes. He has the luxury of playing Monday Morning Quarterback. One who continues to believe the company will do what is right and fair to the Fleet Service. One who follows false prophets and votes for leadership teams who campaign on empty promises. One who expects a Leadership Team to bring the company to their knees while sitting on the sidelines and not getting involved. One who assigns blame to the union instead of the company. You're right... I know JN, Tim Nelson and many others who fall into this category. Your endorsement of JN speaks volumes Tim.
 

Take it easy.  I can see why you would vote for this, I would too if I were in JAX.  But the NC fell far short of everything they said they were locked and loaded on.  Pretty much looked like they just packed it in.  The scope was a wash. It only goes to the joint talks, it exchanges 8 small stations in return for 12 mid stations that now will open up their work to TWU, and restricts insourcing of two stations.  I'd say that Ole AH came out ahead on that headcount.
 
Nothing else was addressed as stated other than they got topped out folks a wage increase and a very fair pay parity. Retirement blows, and the health care bomb is clear and future.  You guys keep saying not to pay attention to it and how it won't affect anything but they certainly didn't convince Ole AH that it wouldn't matter.  Not even a cap negotiated.  I'm not arguing with you, and there is no reason for you to take personal shots, this contract will be voted in.  But JN is right and is 'spot on'.  One doesn't have to be the watchmaker to be able to tell time.  The witness to the NC work is the TA.  Like I said, I couldn't imagine anyone in JAX voting No.  But ORD and 11 other stations that had scope are now open to other unions doing our work.  That's far different than JAX.

 

[Tim Nelson]

 

Most of your post was senselessness.  What remained was utterly absurd. 
 

 
oh look he found a multi-syllabic word that he knew the meaning of amazing!!!  you calling my post names is actually senseless... but what can you do lol 
 
 

 
 First off, there is no compromise in that health care letter.  The union has 90 days to beg for mercy, then the bloody arbitrator does this, "an arbitrator determines the modifications.  Of course the arbitrator has to guarantee that his/her whack job will be enough to wish away any ole tax away from being a burden for the bloody company.  What's worse, mate, is that if he can't guarantee, then the bloody plan gets terminated.  Me thinks that not so good.  errrrrrrrr

 
no  sh|t stupid... the letter is the compromise... 
 
you can either have the letter. which guarantees the membership their current well liked health care plans, all of them. for the next 4 years.
 
or you can have new substandard health care.. for right now and the next four years and possibly  beyond
 
the fact you cant get this simple premise is scary..  
 
 

BTW, the union couldn't convince the company that it should pay no attention to the tax behind the curtain, and with plenty reason.  BTW, there is a very real increase in the risk that we already know exist today.  If the Republicans water down some aspects of Obamacare, some analyst are claiming it would weaken Obamacare and make it twice as burdensome.  So, put the kool aid down, nobody knows what Obama care is going to look like in 2018.  Another hammer comes from the Supreme Court next week in which I suspect the Republicans may lose regarding the exchanges but make no mistake, this will be even a bigger mess in 2018 than I'm even giving it credit for.  It's a big political crap shot.
[/QUOTE] 
what do you think the supreme court is going to do next week?  since its in summer recess???  look out for that hammer oh.... its coming,,, here it is....  wait never mind...  talk about kool aide drinking wow... seriously wow...  
 
in your attempt to seem like you know whats going on with the law, you failed miserably...  nothing new though...  


 


The letter deals with 2018.  What are you talking about regarding our health care right now? 

 

[P. REZ]

Most of your post was senselessness.  What remained was utterly absurd.

 
oh look he found a multi-syllabic word that he knew the meaning of amazing!!!  you calling my post names is actually senseless... but what can you do lol 
 
 

 
 First off, there is no compromise in that health care letter.  The union has 90 days to beg for mercy, then the bloody arbitrator does this, "an arbitrator determines the modifications.  Of course the arbitrator has to guarantee that his/her whack job will be enough to wish away any ole tax away from being a burden for the bloody company.  What's worse, mate, is that if he can't guarantee, then the bloody plan gets terminated.  Me thinks that not so good.  errrrrrrrr[/size]

 
no  sh|t stupid... the letter is the compromise... 
 
you can either have the letter. which guarantees the membership their current well liked health care plans, all of them. for the next 4 years.
 
or you can have new substandard health care.. for right now and the next four years and possibly  beyond
 
the fact you cant get this simple premise is scary..  
 
 

BTW, the union couldn't convince the company that it should pay no attention to the tax behind the curtain, and with plenty reason.  BTW, there is a very real increase in the risk that we already know exist today.  If the Republicans water down some aspects of Obamacare, some analyst are claiming it would weaken Obamacare and make it twice as burdensome.  So, put the kool aid down, nobody knows what Obama care is going to look like in 2018.  Another hammer comes from the Supreme Court next week in which I suspect the Republicans may lose regarding the exchanges but make no mistake, this will be even a bigger mess in 2018 than I'm even giving it credit for.  It's a big political crap shot.[/size]

 
what do you think the supreme court is going to do next week?  since its in summer recess???  look out for that hammer oh.... its coming,,, here it is....  wait never mind...  talk about kool aide drinking wow... seriously wow...  
 
in your attempt to seem like you know whats going on with the law, you failed miserably...  nothing new though...  

[/quote]

PHXConx,

You have given Tim the information he needs but as you can see, he will never give you an answer. He is not dumb, he has an agenda and will only post to accomplish his agenda. I personally like that you are hammering him but in the end you will not get an honest dialogue with him.

P. Rez