Whining Furloughees

[SkyLiner]

No one is happy with any of the concessions including myself. Furlough pay alone did not save this company from BK, it was the whole package. We ALL took big cuts.

Do you really think that John Ward gave up furlough pay (when it wasn't even asked for) to save the company? _____ (Your answer here)

And of course everyone recognizes the sacrafices of all employees. But I don't know many active employees that are on food stamps now or that give to a fund that has been set up (by us)(the F/A WEcare family foundation) to help those amoung us who haven't been able to find jobs yet. So caring about the loss of long nyc layovers or food for you just isn't one of our top concerns at the moment, sorry.

 

[MiAAmi]

Do you really think that John Ward gave up furlough pay (when it wasn't even asked for) to save the company? _____ (Your answer here)

And of course everyone recognizes the sacrafices of all employees. But I don't know many active employees that are on food stamps now or that give to a fund that has been set up (by us)(the F/A WEcare family foundation) to help those amoung us who haven't been able to find jobs yet. So caring about the loss of long nyc layovers or food for you just isn't one of our top concerns at the moment, sorry.

I don't under estimate the hardship of the furloughees, like I said before I've been there and know what its like. I understand that you have your own priorities right now with just trying to get by. The f/a's who are working have every right to try and better their working conditions and the conditions of any of the furloughees that are now returning to work. A poster as said that we have set the profession back 30 yrs. This is a very important subject in my eyes. I agree that we need to salvage whats left of our profession. Keeping our pay scale higher to me is worth more than furlough pay. It affects more people. Those that are returning to work now will have a higher pay level to return to because furlough pay was given back. The company may not have asked for furlough pay but that was something that has helped us keep our pay scale at a higher level. Keeping the pay scale higher also keeps us at a higher level to negotiate from when negotiations start again.

 

[SkyLiner]

I don't under estimate the hardship of the furloughees, like I said before I've been there and know what its like. I understand that you have your own priorities right now with just trying to get by. The f/a's who are working have every right to try and better their working conditions and the conditions of any of the furloughees that are now returning to work. A poster as said that we have set the profession back 30 yrs. This is a very important subject in my eyes. I agree that we need to salvage whats left of our profession. Keeping our pay scale higher to me is worth more than furlough pay. It affects more people. Those that are returning to work now will have a higher pay level to return to because furlough pay was given back. The company may not have asked for furlough pay but that was something that has helped us keep our pay scale at a higher level. Keeping the pay scale higher also keeps us at a higher level to negotiate from when negotiations start again.

Didnt answer the first question...

Also what giving furlough pay back does is make every furloughed flight attendant "seasonal."

Another question if I may.

Does John Ward have an agenda against the majority of the furloughed f/as? Yes or No will do.

I know it annoys you terribly that we "whine" (in your eyes) otherwise you would have never started the topic, but we aren't going away, so get out some danish harvati (that's cheese) and enjoy the whine.

 

[MiAAmi]

Didnt answer the first question...

Also what giving furlough pay back does is make every furloughed flight attendant "seasonal."

Another question if I may.

Does John Ward have an agenda against the majority of the furloughed f/as? Yes or No will do.

I know it annoys you terribly that we "whine" (in your eyes) otherwise you would have never started the topic, but we aren't going away, so get out some danish harvati (that's cheese) and enjoy the whine.

Seasonal f/a's hasn't happened yet. If it does then we will have to deal with it. You really have to pick your battles when it comes to the next round of negotiations. If the company starts using furloughees as seasonal flight attendants then we will probably negotiate for furlough pay again. This seasonal f/a subject is something that yes we should be concerned with but hasn't happened. Pay rates are whats happening and I think pay rates right now are a higher priority for most. I don't know what to tell you about John Ward, I would like to think his agenda is do whats best for the APFA group as a whole. Everyone whines about something or another and you are entitled to your own issues. I metioned in an earlier post that I started this thread in responce to the tread titled "The Whining Continues...". Just pointing out that we all have things that are important to us.

 

[jsn25911]

This is a very important subject in my eyes. I agree that we need to salvage whats left of our profession. Keeping our pay scale higher to me is worth more than furlough pay. It affects more people. Those that are returning to work now will have a higher pay level to return to because furlough pay was given back. The company may not have asked for furlough pay but that was something that has helped us keep our pay scale at a higher level. Keeping the pay scale higher also keeps us at a higher level to negotiate from when negotiations start again.

Miami - you state that the furlough pay was given up so that the working f/a's could keep the pay level higher, so that when people come back they will make better money than if they hadn't given up the furlough pay. Since the furlough f/a's were forced to give up their furlough pay - what do they get in exchange? If you specifically take from them - I would think that they should benefit someway that would be exclusively for them. (I got the furlough pay).

Maybe since the working flight attendants are working and making the money that was "higher" because of the furlough f/a's - possibly the union could start a fund for those that did not get furlough pay. Since the working f/a's have been working one year with that "extra" pay - they could share a little with those that are on food stamps, losing homes, etc. I find it amazing that it takes furloughed flight attendants to start a fund for those in need - when there are 20,000 f/a's working making the "higher" pay because of the furlough pay. Is the hate that deep that not a single f/a cared to start a fund for those in need - and that doesn't mean just TWA - that means also AA f/a's.

I think you all need us more than you realize!

 

[TWAnr]

Miami - you state that the furlough pay was given up so that the working f/a's could keep the pay level higher...

MiAAmi is plain wrong on this one.

Furlough pay is a one time item while working flight attendant salaries are recurring annual expenses. Both the company and the union assumed that all the furloughs which resulted from the changes to the work rules were going to take place by July 2003. Thus, the value of the furlough pay which was computed into the concession package was only for that single wave of lay offs. That one time savings hardly funds a higher rate of pay for the surviving flight attendants over the lifetime of the concessionary agreement. If my memory serves me correctly, this particular concession was valued at $6 million; divided by the number of active flight attendants this works out to approximately $5 per month per employee. It was an act of pure vindictiveness by the APFA against the TWAers, plain and simple (don't forget that John Ward argued to the company, unsuccessfully, that the April 30 furloughees were not entitled to furlough pay) ; some nAAtives were caught in the crossfire.

Don't let this John Ward apologist rewrite history.

 

[L1011Ret]

Right on TWAnr!!! That was pure vindictiveness on the part of JW. Remember too JW argued that TWA F/As should start at beginning salaries when the merger took place despite Carty's promise to the Congress that they would keep pay seniority. And a host of other insults by JW on the TWA F/As. He even went so far as to keep the TWA F/A representatives out of union meetings claiming lawsuit confidentiality when other union members testified that no confidentiality issues were being discussed. JW is a real divider, one would think the best approach to being a union would be to create some form of unity. Instead he plays off one subgroup of F/As against another and then the union leadership whines about apathy of the members? JW has no idea how to create an inspired unified group, none whatsoever. His leadership (sic) borders on the criminal.
Too bad there are so many apologists and rationalizers for his behavior.

 

[MiAAmi]

Miami - you state that the furlough pay was given up so that the working f/a's could keep the pay level higher, so that when people come back they will make better money than if they hadn't given up the furlough pay. Since the furlough f/a's were forced to give up their furlough pay - what do they get in exchange? If you specifically take from them - I would think that they should benefit someway that would be exclusively for them. (I got the furlough pay).

Maybe since the working flight attendants are working and making the money that was "higher" because of the furlough f/a's - possibly the union could start a fund for those that did not get furlough pay. Since the working f/a's have been working one year with that "extra" pay - they could share a little with those that are on food stamps, losing homes, etc. I find it amazing that it takes furloughed flight attendants to start a fund for those in need - when there are 20,000 f/a's working making the "higher" pay because of the furlough pay. Is the hate that deep that not a single f/a cared to start a fund for those in need - and that doesn't mean just TWA - that means also AA f/a's.

I think you all need us more than you realize!

I think you are forgetting that everyone took big pay cuts. Anywhere from $500 to well over $1000 per month depending on seniority. Everyone at AA is adjusting to losses not just the furloughees.

 

[MiAAmi]

MiAAmi is plain wrong on this one.

Furlough pay is a one time item while working flight attendant salaries are recurring annual expenses. Both the company and the union assumed that all the furloughs which resulted from the changes to the work rules were going to take place by July 2003. Thus, the value of the furlough pay which was computed into the concession package was only for that single wave of lay offs. That one time savings hardly funds a higher rate of pay for the surviving flight attendants over the lifetime of the concessionary agreement. If my memory serves me correctly, this particular concession was valued at $6 million; divided by the number of active flight attendants this works out to approximately $5 per month per employee. It was an act of pure vindictiveness by the APFA against the TWAers, plain and simple (don't forget that John Ward argued to the company, unsuccessfully, that the April 30 furloughees were not entitled to furlough pay) ; some nAAtives were caught in the crossfire.

Don't let this John Ward apologist rewrite history.

Care to share your calculations with us on how $6 million doesn't affect the outcome of the total package?

 

[TWAnr]

Care to share your calculations with us on how $6 million doesn't affect the outcome of the total package?

It is quite simple.

The total savings of eliminating furlough pay was valued at $6 million. Since is was calculated to be a one time savings, amortizing it over the life of the RPA equals to $1 million per year during the period of the concessionary contract.

Divide that $1 million figure by the approximately 18,000 active flight attendants and you are left with $55.55 of higher average pay per year for the non furloughed flight attendants which can be funded by that spiteful targeted concession. That is less than five dollars per month before taxes. I guess you can buy a Big Mac at McDonald's with that windfall. Hardly what you need to salvage what is left of the profession.