Wheres the TWU Leadership?

[NYer]

Well all I know is the leadership just got relected up there so you must be in the minority or that would not have happened. I do not dispute the fact that it was very unlikely we would have been released and given that fact it was hard to understand why the refusal by the int'l ask for it, hell they had to use a roll call vote to stop the committee from asking for it {thanks 514} then they turn right around and set the Nov 30th date to ask for it, I was thinking this makes no sense, then boom the company files on the 29th and it is clear they were taking no chances the company could not afford a release and the int'l made sure there would not be one plain and simple.

Most of the ballots were already submitted by the time American filed for BK. It was a done deal by that point. I don't agree there was a refusal, I remember that the Fleet group asked for theirs and never got it. The reason they waited for the release on November 30 was to see what would happen with the pilot negotiations. All the groups are waiting for each other and no one got a deal.

 

[TWU informer]

Well all I know is the leadership just got relected up there so you must be in the minority or that would not have happened. I do not dispute the fact that it was very unlikely we would have been released and given that fact it was hard to understand why the refusal by the int'l ask for it, hell they had to use a roll call vote to stop the committee from asking for it {thanks 514} then they turn right around and set the Nov 30th date to ask for it, I was thinking this makes no sense, then boom the company files on the 29th and it is clear they were taking no chances the company could not afford a release and the int'l made sure there would not be one plain and simple.

First you claim it did not matter what we did or said because BK was coming due to the Pilots going to cause the filing regardless.
Even claimed you have been predicting it for months if not years.

Then you post as if we had some ability to change the outcome and even demean local 514 for their position.

Your postions:

It made no difference voting Yes or No on T/A....correct?
It made no difference to ask for release or not....correct?
Bob Owens had no influence to the T/A vote count.....correct?

So if we had asked for and gotten a release and as you claim, that means we could have executed self help now even after filing which I doubt, then what would we be doing right now, running as fast and as hard as we can into Chapter 7 liquidation? And how we would be better off doing that? Or is it that we had more bluff left in our bag of imaginary power and strength and we didnt get to use it?

I just cannot get a grasp on the idea that nothing mattered as far as our actions, yet you and others place blame on others within our group as if it really did matter. Seems much like oxy-moron or grasping at straws to me.

Fact is there was not a better deal on the table and still iis not one there now.
Fact is many will now lose their jobs.
Fact is we will end up much worse now.


Fact is that will not save us either because the other airlines will match or beat any concession gained from us this time.

So why do you figure we bother to blame and argue? Is it denial? I mean it just sounds like most freely admit that we have no power and no say in the outcome of anything except for Bob Owens, yet we point fingers at each, blame each other, and engage in verbal lashings as if we really do have the ability to make a difference. I keep my finger pointed at Bob because he keeps posting as if he has some super natural power and intelligence beyond the capacity of the lesser man than he.

 

[eolesen]

If they were professionals and they take action based in what they see, then they would have released the parties. There would not have been put on ice. Since they have first hand knowledge of what is happening within the Company, it is safe to say they knew the possibility of BK and decided to let the cards fall where they may. The sides get a deal or the Courts get a deal. Either way, the current Administrations wouldn't have to deal with a hot potato during campaign season.

No, it is not safe to assume the mediators knew about the bankruptcy filing. You'd have to be an idiot to buy that conspiracy... If there was no outward sign of a bankruptcy filing detected by the the people who follow this for a living were able to detect (i.e. the Wall Street analysts), I seriously doubt a mediator would have figured it out, nor do I believe that anyone in negotiations would have tipped their hand because that would have amounted to a violation of securities law.

What far too many of you are late in realizing is that the company appears to have been quite transparent about its positions since 2008. The unions and company antagonists remained in denial.

Seriously, I find it so laughable that everyone else is to blame but the membership here. It's the NMB, it's the crooked judges, it's the evil banks, it's the greedy executives, it's the Tea Party/Republicrats/Demoncrans.... It's always someone else's fault for the position you find yourself in.

Time for the unionist to grow up and accept responsibility for the situation they're in.

You are ultimately responsible for the (lack of) leadership those unions have, whether it is by being apathetic and handing over all control to the union, re-electing guys like Owens, or signing of cards to remove the TWU and go with a craft union or something arguably more accountable to the membership.

I give the guys actively trying to do *something* credit. The rest of you who sit back and piss & moan about how everyone is out to get you? You're just a self-fulfilling prophesy, and every day that you keep the TWU in place is your own damn fault...

Something else to ponder.... Perhaps the union leaders knew that by waiting out a bankruptcy filing, *they* wouldn't be held responsible or accountable for failing to deliver a contract, and that there would be a whole host of people who could be blamed for an imposed contract...




Where you are right, unfortunately, is about the political aspects of this. Even if a mediator was in favor of release, the political association of the NMB to the current non-Administration means they would have likely refused to take action outside of a very small window of opportunity between election cycles. That window was between the mid-term shellacking and last summer. Nobody will be released between now and the November elections.

The NMB really should be a non-partisan organization, but that would be efficient. Can't have that in government.

 

[700UW]

As I have explained before, even if you ratified the T/A, do you actually think the company wouldnt demand more?

I mean come on TWU informer you keep skipping over that fact.

I can tell you at US we all gave concessions in chapter 11 in Sept of 2002, the pilots reached their concessions before the chapter 11 filing, the rest of the unions reached it during bankruptcy, yet but December they were demanding more, threatened Chapter 7 and each union gave more.

The reality is you would not have been spared cuts in bankruptcy even if you took them before the filing.

 

[aapitbull]

First you claim it did not matter what we did or said because BK was coming due to the Pilots going to cause the filing regardless.
Even claimed you have been predicting it for months if not years.

Then you post as if we had some ability to change the outcome and even demean local 514 for their position.

Your postions:

It made no difference voting Yes or No on T/A....correct?
It made no difference to ask for release or not....correct?
Bob Owens had no influence to the T/A vote count.....correct?

So if we had asked for and gotten a release and as you claim, that means we could have executed self help now even after filing which I doubt, then what would we be doing right now, running as fast and as hard as we can into Chapter 7 liquidation? And how we would be better off doing that? Or is it that we had more bluff left in our bag of imaginary power and strength and we didnt get to use it?

I just cannot get a grasp on the idea that nothing mattered as far as our actions, yet you and others place blame on others within our group as if it really did matter. Seems much like oxy-moron or grasping at straws to me.

Fact is there was not a better deal on the table and still iis not one there now.
Fact is many will now lose their jobs.
Fact is we will end up much worse now.


Fact is that will not save us either because the other airlines will match or beat any concession gained from us this time.

So why do you figure we bother to blame and argue? Is it denial? I mean it just sounds like most freely admit that we have no power and no say in the outcome of anything except for Bob Owens, yet we point fingers at each, blame each other, and engage in verbal lashings as if we really do have the ability to make a difference. I keep my finger pointed at Bob because he keeps posting as if he has some super natural power and intelligence beyond the capacity of the lesser man than he.

Ok it did not matter if the T/A passed or not we were going and are bankrupt you say I have no proof of this and I say you have no proof had the T/A passed we would have not, I say praticaly all the professional analyst covering the company agree with my postion. Second and for the last time I do not care what Bob Owens thinks when I voted no I did so knowning full well the next offer would likely worse my expectation was that it would end one way or another in BK I did not then or now believe that Bob could change the TWU.

As far as blaming 514 it is a fact that your local with help of ORD used a roll call vote to stop the committee from asking for release back in Sep or Oct and turned right around at the very same meeting and proposed the Nov 30th date for release as it now turns out to be the day after the BK filing????

Fact is there was not a better deal on the table and still iis not one there now.
Fact is many will now lose their jobs.
Fact is we will end up much worse now.

Once again you cannot say the exact same would not have happened had we voted yes, like I said you would have a few more dollars in your pocket.

Lastly I have not called a lawyer but read a opinion on line that said if you were released for self- help prior to the filing then you could strike this would have provide some leverage that we currently do not have.

So we are clear I voted no knowning full well that I would most likely end up with worse deal that might even cost me my job in BK and would do it again tomorrow. I did not then and do not now believe electing anyone to office or committee will in any way change the Twu as a matter of fact I warned Bob & Larry they where put in those postions to be scapegoats plain and simple.

You know I liked your first Idea best just shut up and gloat after they lay me off, just know this whether you believe or not I did see this coming and have been preparing for this outcome for quite sometime and my wife makes as much or more than I do, so like I said bring it on!

 

[eolesen]

Arguably, US was in a far more precarious position in 2002 than AMR is today, UW.

Two title groups approved contracts in the last 18 months, so you'll get your opportunity to see how they fare in comparison to the guys who didn't....

 

[olderguyAMT]

First you claim it did not matter what we did or said because BK was coming due to the Pilots going to cause the filing regardless.
Even claimed you have been predicting it for months if not years.

Then you post as if we had some ability to change the outcome and even demean local 514 for their position.

Your postions:

It made no difference voting Yes or No on T/A....correct?
It made no difference to ask for release or not....correct?
Bob Owens had no influence to the T/A vote count.....correct?

So if we had asked for and gotten a release and as you claim, that means we could have executed self help now even after filing which I doubt, then what would we be doing right now, running as fast and as hard as we can into Chapter 7 liquidation? And how we would be better off doing that? Or is it that we had more bluff left in our bag of imaginary power and strength and we didnt get to use it?

I just cannot get a grasp on the idea that nothing mattered as far as our actions, yet you and others place blame on others within our group as if it really did matter. Seems much like oxy-moron or grasping at straws to me.

Fact is there was not a better deal on the table and still iis not one there now.
Fact is many will now lose their jobs.
Fact is we will end up much worse now.


Fact is that will not save us either because the other airlines will match or beat any concession gained from us this time.

So why do you figure we bother to blame and argue? Is it denial? I mean it just sounds like most freely admit that we have no power and no say in the outcome of anything except for Bob Owens, yet we point fingers at each, blame each other, and engage in verbal lashings as if we really do have the ability to make a difference. I keep my finger pointed at Bob because he keeps posting as if he has some super natural power and intelligence beyond the capacity of the lesser man than he.

History can provide us with an example to illustrate our problems. We are all in the same boat. Kind of like being on the Titanic after it hit the iceberg?

As individuals, we all process information differently. Some will panic and talk doom and gloom incessantly. Others will be in denial. Then there are the ones that play the Blame Game, and attack their fellow workers.

So here it is, plain and simple. Those in denial have their heads in the sand. It may seem like a circus, but the rest of us have seen the writing on the wall and are processing that information in separate ways.

But make no mistake, we are all in this together, and we all will be effected. These are stressful times, and although we may be greiving in advance, we need to stay focused on doing our jobs to the best of our abilitiy. We can't do anything to change what is coming. Just don't fret too much, and stay busy. We'll all know soon. Maybe its just time to sit down, be quiet, and wait for the news instead of attacking our brothers.
That doesent solve problems or soothe jagged nerves. Now I will step down from my soap box.

 

[NYer]

No, it is not safe to assume the mediators knew about the bankruptcy filing. You'd have to be an idiot to buy that conspiracy... If there was no outward sign of a bankruptcy filing detected by the the people who follow this for a living were able to detect (i.e. the Wall Street analysts), I seriously doubt a mediator would have figured it out, nor do I believe that anyone in negotiations would have tipped their hand because that would have amounted to a violation of securities law.

What far too many of you are late in realizing is that the company appears to have been quite transparent about its positions since 2008. The unions and company antagonists remained in denial.

Seriously, I find it so laughable that everyone else is to blame but the membership here. It's the NMB, it's the crooked judges, it's the evil banks, it's the greedy executives, it's the Tea Party/Republicrats/Demoncrans.... It's always someone else's fault for the position you find yourself in.

Time for the unionist to grow up and accept responsibility for the situation they're in.

You are ultimately responsible for the (lack of) leadership those unions have, whether it is by being apathetic and handing over all control to the union, re-electing guys like Owens, or signing of cards to remove the TWU and go with a craft union or something arguably more accountable to the membership.

I give the guys actively trying to do *something* credit. The rest of you who sit back and piss & moan about how everyone is out to get you? You're just a self-fulfilling prophesy, and every day that you keep the TWU in place is your own damn fault...

Something else to ponder.... Perhaps the union leaders knew that by waiting out a bankruptcy filing, *they* wouldn't be held responsible or accountable for failing to deliver a contract, and that there would be a whole host of people who could be blamed for an imposed contract...




Where you are right, unfortunately, is about the political aspects of this. Even if a mediator was in favor of release, the political association of the NMB to the current non-Administration means they would have likely refused to take action outside of a very small window of opportunity between election cycles. That window was between the mid-term shellacking and last summer. Nobody will be released between now and the November elections.

The NMB really should be a non-partisan organization, but that would be efficient. Can't have that in government.

It wasn't a secret there was a possibility of a BK, the question was when. I'm sure the NMB knew what the American faced since it was necessary for them to know in order to better guide the process. They can't very well expect the American and the Union to agree to something that was financially impossible for the airline to pay. The NMB knew what state the Company was in, maybe they couldn't tell but it is naive to think they didn't know.

I do agree that there is a little blame to go around the table. Every party had a little had in this since the ultimate outcome is that the industry passed us by while we were sitting around pointing fingers.

It is plain to see that some "leaders" just sit back and repeat what others want to hear and when things get worse they just blame someone else. What airline or union in the last 9 years negotiated a deal better, as a whole, than ours? None. What union has come out ahead in a bankruptcy? None. Yet, we are being sold a bag of good that is impossible to deliver. It is done because they will just blame the International when it doesn't happen. Everybody can lead like that.

 

[aapitbull]

It made no difference voting Yes or No on T/A....correct?

Correct the only difference was the few extra dollars that would have been made in the meantime and many people like me decided the extra money was not worth giving up more concessions and it was likely the Pilots & F/A's were going to force the company into BK anyway.



It made no difference to ask for release or not....correct?

Incorrect My postion is had we got released prior to the filing it would have been some leverage and while it was unlikely that would have happened the int'l used 514 to make sure there would be no chance of that happening by setting the request date th day after the filing.




Bob Owens had no influence to the T/A vote count.....correct?

Bob had some influence on the vote but no where near the level you give him credit for at DFW the Pup Bonuses where the main reason people voted no they felt like they gave concessions and had been lied to and simply were not going to vote for more concessions see Schaible Letter.

 

[TWU informer]

Ok it did not matter if the T/A passed or not we were going and are bankrupt you say I have no proof of this and I say you have no proof had the T/A passed we would have not, I say praticaly all the professional analyst covering the company agree with my postion. Second and for the last time I do not care what Bob Owens thinks when I voted no I did so knowning full well the next offer would likely worse my expectation was that it would end one way or another in BK I did not then or now believe that Bob could change the TWU.

As far as blaming 514 it is a fact that your local with help of ORD used a roll call vote to stop the committee from asking for release back in Sep or Oct and turned right around at the very same meeting and proposed the Nov 30th date for release as it now turns out to be the day after the BK filing????

Fact is there was not a better deal on the table and still iis not one there now.
Fact is many will now lose their jobs.
Fact is we will end up much worse now.

Once again you cannot say the exact same would not have happened had we voted yes, like I said you would have a few more dollars in your pocket.

Lastly I have not called a lawyer but read a opinion on line that said if you were released for self- help prior to the filing then you could strike this would have provide some leverage that we currently do not have.

So we are clear I voted no knowning full well that I would most likely end up with worse deal that might even cost me my job in BK and would do it again tomorrow. I did not then and do not now believe electing anyone to office or committee will in any way change the Twu as a matter of fact I warned Bob & Larry they where put in those postions to be scapegoats plain and simple.

You know I liked your first Idea best just shut up and gloat after they lay me off, just know this whether you believe or not I did see this coming and have been preparing for this outcome for quite sometime and my wife makes as much or more than I do, so like I said bring it on!

I read the AMP literature that was passed out during T/A ratification, and I attended the AMP meeting you held in Tulsa. You said nothing in either about voting NO because you expected a worse deal or knew you could end up without a job. In fact you were claiming something totally different at that time and there was without a doubt an organizing strategy driving the move more than anything you claim today.

And you have the wrong guy if you think I will be gloating while my co-workers are laid-off. I might continue to gloat that I was correct in that we would not get a better deal by voting NO, but never gloat at the demise of another.

I read many opinions here, and even post my own, but wouldn't place enough on any of that, to make a claim we could strike after a BK filing as long as we were released prior to that filing.

And I surely fail to see the leadership ability in the idea that a strike after a Bankruptcy Filing provides leverage.
If anything that would provide the company more leverage not us.

And you should also know, that most members do not have a spouse making more than they do.

Shutting up is personally hard for me, some might might even call my mouth more of a character flaw than anything else, but without a doubt, shutting up would be just as productive as posting here and the right thing to do for me.

 

[aapitbull]

I read the AMP literature that was passed out during T/A ratification, and I attended the AMP meeting you held in Tulsa. You said nothing in either about voting NO because you expected a worse deal or knew you could end up without a job. In fact you were claiming something totally different at that time and there was without a doubt an organizing strategy driving the move more than anything you claim today.

And you have the wrong guy if you think I will be gloating while my co-workers are laid-off. I might continue to gloat that I was correct in that we would not get a better deal by voting NO, but never gloat at the demise of another.

I read many opinions here, and even post my own, but wouldn't place enough on any of that, to make a claim we could strike after a BK filing as long as we were released prior to that filing.

And I surely fail to see the leadership ability in the idea that a strike after a Bankruptcy Filing provides leverage.
If anything that would provide the company more leverage not us.

And you should also know, that most members do not have a spouse making more than they do.

Shutting up is personally hard for me, some might might even call my mouth more of a character flaw than anything else, but without a doubt, shutting up would be just as productive as posting here and the right thing to do for me.

The drive to remove the Twu under any name was about controlling our own future not ending up where we are today as the majority in a union with no say in how it is run, if your asking me why I did not say I thought BK was inevitabe that should be self evident, had we made a change I don't know if it would have been different I suspect we would still be BK, that said I would rather be represented by Lee Seham then the clowns that are up there now and we would not be on the same committee as fleet and Eagle.

I try my best not to post but sometimes just feel that I must speak up because some of what is being said is just outrageous.

 

[aapitbull]

I read many opinions here, and even post my own, but wouldn't place enough on any of that, to make a claim we could strike after a BK filing as long as we were released prior to that filing.

And I surely fail to see the leadership ability in the idea that a strike after a Bankruptcy Filing provides leverage.
If anything that would provide the company more leverage not us.

The opinion was actually a legal opinion it was not posted on this site, I believe it was either the Nwa or UA F/A's who filed a lawsuit claiming that because they were in negoiations that gave them the right to strike if they could not reach a settlment, the way I read it was the judge said had they been released that would be correct but since they where not released before the filing that was not the case.

I do not think striking while in BK would be a good idea but the fact that you could, would create a certain amount of leverage against both the company and the creditors committee. that said the twu would have folded the hand no matter what, thats why I did not bother to look it up.

 

[Overspeed]

We could have used self-help in BK if we had been released, which the twu intl with the help of 514 and titled 2 refused to ask for until Nov 30th 2011 and AA filed for BK on the 29th imagiine that go ahead and blame Bob, all it does is provide proof postive that you cannot change the twu from within.

As far as the int'l stepping in and taking over negotiations goes I believe that is just whats happened they will settle with the company and say take it or the judge will impose it on you.

You really need to get off the cool aid it appears it is causing you to break with reality.

Not Kool Aid drinking.

It has already been stated here that you cannot do self help in BK and if we did have a release before then, yes we could have stayed out while our union tried to bargain with the TWU. Last time a union did that - AMFA NWA - they got the great deal of accepting the scabs on their seniority list and all overhaul outsourced.

Hey maybe they will now but probably not. AMR will plead their case for changes in the CBA, we will argue and vote on the deal, and if we vote it down it will be imposed.

 

[Duke787]

I don't recall reading the posts from the genius's of the vote NO coalition saying, "vote no because we're going to BK anyway" it was all, "we can do better, I'm not working weekends, losing pre-funding is an attack on our profession". But like it has been stated and I agree with, this a moot subject, and cannot be changed, but we can learn from it. The lesson learned, don't listen to the know it all's who do nothing more then complain.

AMP is a non starter, doesn't even have majority support in TUL where it comes from. Even thinking of going on strike or doing a work action during BK is beyond stupid. Like it or not the TWU is our representative!

 

[aapitbull]

I don't recall reading the posts from the genius's of the vote NO coalition saying, "vote no because we're going to BK anyway" it was all, "we can do better, I'm not working weekends, losing pre-funding is an attack on our profession". But like it has been stated and I agree with, this a moot subject, and cannot be changed, but we can learn from it. The lesson learned, don't listen to the know it all's who do nothing more then complain.

AMP is a non starter, doesn't even have majority support in TUL where it comes from. Even thinking of going on strike or doing a work action during BK is beyond stupid. Like it or not the TWU is our representative!

Well Informer here is one that appears to have listened to Bob and now has learned it is best to form your on opinion and not follow those posting on the internet, if you are a mech/welder/machinist/osm/cleaner you have to be in your late 30's at least seems a little old to learn such a valuable lesson but good to know you have.

I do not think striking while in BK would be a good idea but the fact that you could, would create a certain amount of leverage against both the company and the creditors committee. that said the twu would have folded the hand no matter what, thats why I did not bother to look it up.

Read slowly no I don't think striking would be a good idea but if you had the option they would have to treat you with kid gloves because you would not have to accept what the judge imposed this is not the case here.