What is next after failed ratification vote?

[olderguyAMT]

If you don't remember Bobby Ewing, then your screen name betrays your age....

I don't remember B. Ewing because I have always thought that soap operas suck. Still do.
and it has nothing to do with my age or this thread. Your reference to old soap opera shows betrays your desperation.

Show me a successful company that routinely and continuously disrespects their most precious assets.
We could take pay cut after pay cut, and they would still lose money, and still demand more concessions while rewarding themselves for doing sloppy work.
Earnings estimates from wall street average .54 for this qtr. that is about $180 million.

Will the co. begin to bargain in good faith............ maybe.

 

[Bob Owens]

I don't remember B. Ewing because I have always thought that soap operas suck. Still do.
and it has nothing to do with my age or this thread. Your reference to old soap opera shows betrays your desperation.

Show me a successful company that routinely and continuously disrespects their most precious assets.
We could take pay cut after pay cut, and they would still lose money, and still demand more concessions while rewarding themselves for doing sloppy work.
Earnings estimates from wall street average .54 for this qtr. that is about $180 million.

Will the co. begin to bargain in good faith............ maybe.

The unfortunate fact is the company will continue to demand concessions as long as we continue to do a good job for them. When we rebel, then and only then, will they back off and become reasonable. Its in their nature to try and push just to see how far they can push, even if they have exceeded their own expectations. I'm certain that these guys are suprised at how much crap we've put up with. Think about what has been going on here, they cut our pay by 40%, cut the workforce by around the same, they make excuses why they get bonuses despite posting profits and somehow have convinced some of our leaders that the company has to show profits before we can ask for a decent wage. Well the owners determine the compensation for our executives, and they agreed to bonuses even if the company shows a loss. So how much importance should we place the profitability of the company if the owners of the company are willing to pay bonuses to the people who run the place when they run it at a loss? Why should we allow their performance to determine our pay?

 

[Frank Szabo]

What's next, indeed.

This evening, our steward passed out a piece of paper printed up by who knows who and on it was space to write the <10> things that would improve this football bat of a TA and get it passed. Even though it was expected the union would be asking for advice and this paper was expected, I laughed out loud when I saw it.

Dear God, ladies and gents - what's right with this TA? Are those in elected union office so dense they have to ask why their pre-negotiated TA didn't pass? For whatever reason, two thirds of the TWU membership decided to say "NO - this giveaway nonsense stops with me." It's about time.

Unions aren't about the name above their doors or the out-of-touch group of highly paid idiots - unions are about people. Perhaps we're getting this through our collective head, finally.

 

[Bob Owens]

What's next, indeed.

This evening, our steward passed out a piece of paper printed up by who knows who and on it was space to write the <10> things that would improve this football bat of a TA and get it passed. Even though it was expected the union would be asking for advice and this paper was expected, I laughed out loud when I saw it.

Dear God, ladies and gents - what's right with this TA? Are those in elected union office so dense they have to ask why their pre-negotiated TA didn't pass? For whatever reason, two thirds of the TWU membership decided to say "NO - this giveaway nonsense stops with me." It's about time.

Unions aren't about the name above their doors or the out-of-touch group of highly paid idiots - unions are about people. Perhaps we're getting this through our collective head, finally.

Well that seems to have been the plan all along. Squeeze in a boatload of concessions then narrow us down to a few items, then start at that point and say that we have to "give and take'. Thats why we started with that rediculously low table position, reduce expectations so you can work down from there. As I said Don kept telling us to give on all the other Articles so we could get a Dollar figure to be rolled over into the economic articles, only that never happened, what we ended up voting on was the companys proposal, from all the language concessions that were agreed to from 2007 on, to the company's economic proposal in May. When you look at the TA nearly everything in Bold is a concession, and there's a lot more than 10 items in bold and those concessions are all on top of the 2003 concessions.

I think we need to scrap the whole TA, the membership rejected it 2 to 1, and go with 2001 book and adjust the economics by inflation. You have to remnember that the savings from the heads they cut alone covers what that would cost. Thats over $340,000,000 a year they are saving right there, those heads were cut and we not only kept the work in house but brought more work back in along with 3P work.

 

[eolesen]

Show me a successful company that routinely and continuously disrespects their most precious assets.

Walmart. They are continuously profitable, expanding, and there's no shortage of people willing to work there.


Bob, I'm not disagreeing that you guys deserve more money. Just the premise that you can roll back the clock ten years and expect anyone to take you seriously.

You've already got airline like fees in your pay structure -- license premiums, shift differentials, and a couple others that escape me at the moment. Geo pay would be another one. It might not be the dumbest thing in the world to consider taking down the hourly rate and building it up with premiums or fees. IIRC, most if not all of the MRO's and FBO's charge by the task, not the hour. If it's good enough to charge customers that way, it might not be the worst way to pay people.

 

[Bob Owens]

Walmart. They are continuously profitable, expanding, and there's no shortage of people willing to work there.


Bob, I'm not disagreeing that you guys deserve more money. Just the premise that you can roll back the clock ten years and expect anyone to take you seriously.

You've already got airline like fees in your pay structure -- license premiums, shift differentials, and a couple others that escape me at the moment. Geo pay would be another one. It might not be the dumbest thing in the world to consider taking down the hourly rate and building it up with premiums or fees. IIRC, most if not all of the MRO's and FBO's charge by the task, not the hour. If it's good enough to charge customers that way, it might not be the worst way to pay people.

Well in 2003 the company rolled back the clock over 60 years. Al Blackman said we gave up things that they had before the TWU even came onto the property. So 10 years is nothing, they are still ahead by 50.

 

[Birdman]

Maybe we should follow the airlines lead, charge a set hourly rate then add a flashlight usage fee, and a tool usage fee, signature fee, log book review fee, etc etc.

Seriously, why are there no incentive type raises negotiated? Neither the compAAny or the union places any value on those that go above and beyond. Management has done away with every program, i.e. perfect attendance, AAchievers, leap, that rewarded those who were exemplary. It's been said that the 2003 sick pay concession has cost the compAAny dearly. If true, did the union ask for a credit on how much the compAAny would save by reversing, which they did, their failed half day pay policy? Bottom line, those who are more productive and trustworthy, as an incentive, should be paid more.

 

[Duke787]

Ok, I'll take Zero Executive Compensation for $200, Alex. I have some car repairs that need to be done.

E, you are typically missing the point. I have no problem with executives being compensated--after all I worked in the oil business for over 20 years where AMR exec bonusses would be viewed as chump change.

What I have a problem with is executives receiving bonusses while the company is losing money hand over fist. Bonusses are supposed to be for performance over and above. Not for just showing up on a regular basis.

Well said, I would add that the lack of accountablity from Arpey on down to the line mechanic doing a PS check is going to be the downfall of this company.

 

[Chuck Schalk]

Tulsa already has survey being handed out by shop stewards at the base at crew meetings. It is the top 10 list. Didn't we do a survey before? I agree with getting members input but what has the negotiating team doing for the last 2 1/2 years that they have to ask the members now what the issues are with this T/A? Why only a top 10 list? This T/A needs to be opened up and the International reps and the negotiating committee need to set the course to what is wrong with the T/A as they supposedly negotiated it and then let the members have their input. my concern is that the list will be used to get just enough votes to make it pass. That is not negotiating in my view. A contract should pass or fail by a clear majority (75% or more) to be considered in the best interest of the members.

What a waste of time, money, and resources only to find out that the membership did not want a concessionary contract. Had the Presidents went back to their boards and the membership prior to voting on it,with the full T/A and discussed the good, the bad, and the unknown it would have saved everyone a lot of time and money. I believe that no tentative agreement or ratification vote should be taken by the Presidents until they have had an opportunity to discuss it with their boards and members. They are elected to represent the members not think for them.

 

[KUKUY]

While I respect your opinion I do have a question. When is it a good time to discover your union sucks and needs to be changed? What if they bring back another concession? ok so it was 2 questions.

Who voted the negotiating committee into office in the first place? The membership spoke then. The members I spoke with said they voted no because it was a divisive TA. I Assert that this AMP drive falls right into the company's hands , and we all know the company is laughing at us, by attempting to divide the membership. With being said, who is dancing with the company now?

 

[Birdman]

A contract should pass or fail by a clear majority (75% or more) to be considered in the best interest of the members.

The compAAny invests a tremendous amount time and money into making sure their contracts only pass by the slimmest of margins.

 

[Birdman]

Who voted the negotiating committee into office in the first place? The membership spoke then. The members I spoke with said they voted no because it was a divisive TA. I Assert that this AMP drive falls right into the company's hands , and we all know the company is laughing at us, by attempting to divide the membership. With being said, who is dancing with the company now?

Right, just like the compAAny laughed at the AMFA drive. The membership is already divided and the TWU has failed to bring unity. Lets move on.

 

[eolesen]

Tulsa already has survey being handed out by shop stewards at the base at crew meetings. It is the top 10 list. Didn't we do a survey before? I agree with getting members input but what has the negotiating team doing for the last 2 1/2 years that they have to ask the members now what the issues are with this T/A? Why only a top 10 list?

Love or hate the TWU, but they're the ones holding the contract, and re-negotiations have to start somewhere.

If the negotiating committee is indeed as out of touch as y'all say they are, doing a top ten or a climate survey isn't a bad approach. Keeping it limited in scope to just ten is going to force people to really think about what's important.

• If the results show that there are only five or six issues which are ranked in everyone's top ten, they know where to focus the attention
  
• If the results show that some of the issues are geographic, or that line & overhaul are split on certain issues, that too allows them to focus their attention accordingly
  
• If they find out that there are 50 issues which are equally weighted systemwide, they've got a much bigger problem to address, and may indeed need to start over
  

I also suspect the survey you referred to was taken before the economy went in the crapper, and what was important 24 months ago isn't going to be the same today.

You're lucky it's a top ten list. When I do a process consulting workshop, I only let them list five (or fewer) issues that they think need to be fixed. Otherwise, they'll never decide what needs to be looked at, or what the priority is...

 

[Bob Owens]

Seriously, why are there no incentive type raises negotiated? Neither the compAAny or the union places any value on those that go above and beyond. Management has done away with every program, i.e. perfect attendance, AAchievers, leap, that rewarded those who were exemplary. It's been said that the 2003 sick pay concession has cost the compAAny dearly. If true, did the union ask for a credit on how much the compAAny would save by reversing, which they did, their failed half day pay policy? Bottom line, those who are more productive and trustworthy, as an incentive, should be paid more.

Once our pay is restored I wouldnt be totally against incentive pay schemes. But I'm not going to set ourselves up to having to jump through higher and higher hoops for less and less reward. One of the reservations I have with such schemes as far as maint is do we really want to set up a reward system that could inevitably encourage shortcuts on safety?

According to the company aircraft maint uses 5.1 sick days per year per person. In other words there has been no net accrual of sick time, so the company's response has gone from reward(Perfect Attendance) to punitive, first two half pay sick days then when that backfired -removing the Retiree health plan and using our reduced accrual rate of sick time to fund overpriced retiree health coverage. If this had passed it too would have backfired on the company, because it would not have taken us very long to figure out that using the sick time at full pay would give us a bigger economic benifit than saving it for retiree medical. Morale would continue to deteriorate and resentment intensify, which would in turn lead to even higher absenteeism. With our low rates of pay early retirement isnt realistic anyway and their plan no longer included post retiree coverage.

I think whats really confusing the company is that Eagle accepted crappy terms and we didnt, but they fail to realize that nobody plans to have a career at Eagle, they go there to get their time in. People try and transfer from Eagle to AA, not the other way around.

 

[Mr Red]

Once our pay is restored I wouldnt be totally against incentive pay schemes. But I'm not going to set ourselves up to having to jump through higher and higher hoops for less and less reward. One of the reservations I have with such schemes as far as maint is do we really want to set up a reward system that could inevitably encourage shortcuts on safety?

According to the company aircraft maint uses 5.1 sick days per year per person. In other words there has been no net accrual of sick time, so the company's response has gone from reward(Perfect Attendance) to punitive, first two half pay sick days then when that backfired -removing the Retiree health plan and using our reduced accrual rate of sick time to fund overpriced retiree health coverage. If this had passed it too would have backfired on the company, because it would not have taken us very long to figure out that using the sick time at full pay would give us a bigger economic benifit than saving it for retiree medical. Morale would continue to deteriorate and resentment intensify, which would in turn lead to even higher absenteeism. With our low rates of pay early retirement isnt realistic anyway and their plan no longer included post retiree coverage.

I think whats really confusing the company is that Eagle accepted crappy terms and we didnt, but they fail to realize that nobody plans to have a career at Eagle, they go there to get their time in. People try and transfer from Eagle to AA, not the other way around.