Want afa-CWA representation? Just wait for the afa-CWA Raid

[donttouchthebeauty]

Well IORFA, I actually would love to know when a domestic reserve can pick up an international trip? or a domestic lineholder for that matter.. Also - A 2hour call out is NOTHING - try a 4 hour minimum, but It seems as if you don't know the language very well because you more than likely do one type flying, which is where the union screws itself.. People such as yourself have no idea what the reserve language is and therefore dismiss it... DEBUNK DEBUNK DEBUNK.....

 

[donttouchthebeauty]

You don't need to be wearing a flight attendant uniform. You need a straightjacket.

...and a muzzle, too.

Precious, don't make your desires from your husband public and project them at me... It just shows your personal frustrations as well as your "professional" ones.

 

[IORFA]

Hey, why don't you ask your "friends" then they can tell you. But YES a domestic line holder who still has their Int'l quals, CAN indeed pick up a Int'l trip on Option II during the holiday months. They can also continue their Int'l qualification forever if they choose. Besides, if you don't want to beleive it, don't. Just keep your ever loving, false talking, trap shut. Besides, what happened to your ridiculous response to all the other false things I corrected you on? Or did you decide that you really have NO idea what you are talking about? By the way, I do serve reserve and like I said, haven't had a short call out in years. So forgive me if I am not that up to date about the language. It isn't a problem for me or most people I talk to. Unfortunately, YOU have a problem with it. So, good for you. For most commuters, 2 hours or 4 hours, doesn't matter. If you are not at base, you are not at base.

 

[donttouchthebeauty]

Hey, why don't you ask your "friends" then they can tell you. But YES a domestic line holder who still has their Int'l quals, CAN indeed pick up a Int'l trip on Option II during the holiday months. They can also continue their Int'l qualification forever if they choose. Besides, if you don't want to beleive it, don't. Just keep your ever loving, false talking, trap shut. Besides, what happened to your ridiculous response to all the other false things I corrected you on? Or did you decide that you really have NO idea what you are talking about? By the way, I do serve reserve and like I said, haven't had a short call out in years. So forgive me if I am not that up to date about the language. It isn't a problem for me or most people I talk to. Unfortunately, YOU have a problem with it. So, good for you. For most commuters, 2 hours or 4 hours, doesn't matter. If you are not at base, you are not at base.

On option II - during holiday months - in critical coverage - shall we go on - if the moon and sun are aligned with the north star... LOL 3/4 of your flight attendants aren't even intl qualified.. No need to explain, I know what you are trying to twist and I'm not biting sweet pea...

 

[IORFA]

Yes, but you said it was NOT possible. So, yes you are correct, you were wrong, again. As with all the other things you were complaining about. Plus, I never said critical coverage. Option II is open atleast every fri. sat. and sun. If there is a need for it to be open other days, then it is. I wouldn't call every weekend, critical. Maybe it is at UA. So who was lying? Me or YOU? By the way, where did you come up with the 3/4 amount? Did your "friends" tell you that?

 

[IORFA]

Precious, don't make your desires from your husband public and project them at me... It just shows your personal frustrations as well as your "professional" ones.

Your ignorance is becoming as annoying as Super Scab PTO.

 

[donttouchthebeauty]

Your ignorance is becoming as annoying as Super Scab PTO.

AAAHHHHAHHHHAAAAA - Good one!!!! I was expecting so much more.........

 

[Bob Owens]

AAAHHHHAHHHHAAAAA - Good one!!!! I was expecting so much more.........

Many of these FAs that attack you and the AFA suffer from "Stockholm Syndrome". Deep down they know the truth and the real reason why they dont want to join together with other FAs is because they love AA and having the APFA is merely an extension of their relationship with AA. It keeps them isolated from other FAs and they want to kep it that way because it makes them closer to AA. No matter what AA does to them this will not change and they dont want it to.

 

[JAMAKE1]

Yes Aisle Hopper: You've certainly stirred the pot indeed. At the risk of being redundant, I have reposted my response from over on the Delta forum. I am certainly no cheerleader for AFA either, but I do support their vision for the reasons stated below. I've said it before and I will say it again; I believe that our MEC did a commendable job in preserving as much of our contract as possible, under two rounds of concessions, with the very real threat of our company going to the bankruptcy judge and imposing whatever concessions they deemed necessary. Yes, we lost our pensions, which was a big hit, but likely would've happened whether AFA represented or not. Our MEC did manage keep our international rates of pay in Hawaii/Alaska/Caribbean/Central America...when the company wanted to make those markets domestic rates of pay. We also kept our work rules, including 8-in-24, 30-in-7, 5 paid holidays, trip guarantee, holding pay, understaffing pay, and premium pay on both wide body and narrow body equipment. I've had an equal number of discussions with AA flight attendants during my Hawaii layovers who complained about all the work rules that APFA squandered to their company during their give-backs. I am someone who has a very diverse airline background and have worked for four airlines, one of which was a non-union carrier (which later became AFA). From my work experience, I absolutely see the need to have a binding collective bargaining agreement. I believe that negotiating leverage is important, especially in the environment we find ourselves in today. In 12 years at UA, I have yet to have a dues increase. The biggest challenge I think that AFA has, is that they have not been terribly successful in unifying the membership. Collectively, we're a rather apathetic bunch. We don't stand together in solidarity and so many of our flight attendants think that AFA should do all of the dirty work that is required, without their having to get involved. I see this more of a systemic problem within the UAL MEC, rather than AFA national. I don't really want to get into the pissing match that has overtaken this thread, but if you believe that collective bargaining isn't for you Aisle Hopper, then vote NO. If and when the industry consolidates, I don't know how much of a leg your workgroup is going to have to stand on based on a non-binding memo from Delta management.

Aisle Hopper:

I will speak to some of the concerns that you posed. First of all, having "assurances" from your management doesn't mean very much from a legal stand point if those "assurances" are not binding. The way in which to ensure promises from management are kept or adhered to, is by having a collective bargaining agreement. I am am not suggesting that it has to be AFA. As I mentioned, it gives your work group some leverage in which to negotiate with your company's management. With where the industry may be headed, it is important to have a legal framework with which to draw from.

As far as the AFA spending our dues money to help organize Delta F/A's; I happen to be one of the few flight attendants out there that support this. If collectively, we are represented by the same union, it can help us to raise the bar in terms of negotiating similar work rules and rates of pay at all airlines. Furthermore, it also helps to level out the power structures so that for example, flight attendants at smaller AFA represented carriers have a voice during voting and resolution-building at Board of Directors meetings. That way, an airline such as the United MEC (with large numbers of flight attendants) isn't over-exerting their power. The more airlines that come into the fold under one union umbrella helps to create a more balanced BOD. Any organizational structure is going to have this dilemma. The point is to establish some equalibrium so that no one group (in this case, airline) is too powerful.

During the late 1980's and early 1990's, there was a woman by the name of Susan Bianchi-Sand who, in my opinion was a visionary. She really envisioned a flight attendant union that sought to bring as many airlines as possible into the AFA fold so that our collective interests were represented more universally. She has gone on to do great work with women's caucuses in Washington, D.C. and I had the privilege of meeting her on one of my flights when I first started flying with UAL in the mid 1990's. So, a percentage of my dues to continue her visionary legacy, in my opinion, is money well spent.

I am sure you will find many UAL flight attendants that begrudge the AFA, and admittedly, we have rather apathetic participation by the membership, but, having been through restructuring, and having seen the term sheet of concessions the company was asking for during bankruptcy, I am thankful we had SOME leverage in which to negotiate. Our union representation helped minimized our give-backs considerably. We operate in a super-capitalistic environment, with market forces working against all that has been fought for and achieved in 50 years of barganing. If one is going to continue in this profession for the long term, then it is important to have protection that is legally bound by both parties. A little bit of negotiating leverage can go a long way and I never want to be in a position where my company can unilaterally impose whatever work rules and/or concessions they deem appropriate.

I think it's great that Delta has a culture that tries to foster a spirit of cooperation. I also know that you all have been through a number of different management regimes during the past decade and have been at the affect of different corporate strategies and furthermore, had no say in the concessions that were to be imposed during your court restructuring. The carrots being dangled right now could easily be stripped away during the next economic downturn without your work group having any freedom to choose. Some things to consider...

 

[Skymess]

Well IORFA, I actually would love to know when a domestic reserve can pick up an international trip? or a domestic lineholder for that matter.. Also - A 2hour call out is NOTHING - try a 4 hour minimum, but It seems as if you don't know the language very well because you more than likely do one type flying, which is where the union screws itself.. People such as yourself have no idea what the reserve language is and therefore dismiss it... DEBUNK DEBUNK DEBUNK.....

I had no idea until reading this that Beauty was a UAL FA. I thought you were a former TWA FA. WHY are you over here all the time? Isn't there anything going on on the UAL board?

Here's the skinny, beauty, we separate international and domestic because the majority of us prefer it to be that way. Some people hate domestic and others hate international. It's the same reason we don't vote in straight reserve. We don't see the point in endlessly torturing people. If it's July or December, DOM and INTL FA's can volunteer for either operation. The DOM FAs can only volunteer for the INTL sector if their ditching qualification is current. Most of the time the people who resigned international for domestic are given the option to keep their ditching current when they get to recurrent even if they are domestic when they go. I used to switch back and forth and always kept mine current so I didn't have to go down to the farm just for an hour ditching class.

BTW, two of my best friends are UAL FAs. I live with one of them and if I had a dollar for the times she says "i've been converted again, I have standby again" and whatever you guys call that open ended trip thing where they send you off on a flight that you have no clue about, I'd be a zillionaire.

Different strokes for different folks; you know?

My friends would rather die than do the short layovers some of the domestic people t AA ahave to do, but there are many other things they envy that we have over here. One of those things is the ability to fly whatever we want to fly whenever we want to fly it when we are on a line month. That limit you guys have on hours, the difficulty trading, and the WOP thing seem kind of annoying. The other major thing they woud love to have is the knowledge of exactly what position you are going to be when you show up at the airplane.

Comparatively speaking, from listening to my UAL friends, there's nothing you guys have that would entice me to work there except the 747-400. I use my friend's passes all the time and those nasty agents you guys have take the cake. Whoever trains them to all be that way should start an attack dog training school. They'd be rich.

 

[StraaightTaalk]

Yes Aisle Hopper: You've certainly stirred the pot indeed. At the risk of being redundant, I have reposted my response from over on the Delta forum. I am certainly no cheerleader for AFA either, but I do support their vision for the reasons stated below. I've said it before and I will say it again; I believe that our MEC did a commendable job in preserving as much of our contract as possible, under two rounds of concessions, with the very real threat of our company going to the bankruptcy judge and imposing whatever concessions they deemed necessary. Yes, we lost our pensions, which was a big hit, but likely would've happened whether AFA represented or not. Our MEC did manage keep our international rates of pay in Hawaii/Alaska/Caribbean/Central America...when the company wanted to make those markets domestic rates of pay. We also kept our work rules, including 8-in-24, 30-in-7, 5 paid holidays, trip guarantee, holding pay, understaffing pay, and premium pay on both wide body and narrow body equipment. I've had an equal number of discussions with AA flight attendants during my Hawaii layovers who complained about all the work rules that APFA squandered to their company during their give-backs. I am someone who has a very diverse airline background and have worked for four airlines, one of which was a non-union carrier (which later became AFA). From my work experience, I absolutely see the need to have a binding collective bargaining agreement. I believe that negotiating leverage is important, especially in the environment we find ourselves in today. In 12 years at UA, I have yet to have a dues increase. The biggest challenge I think that AFA has, is that they have not been terribly successful in unifying the membership. Collectively, we're a rather apathetic bunch. We don't stand together in solidarity and so many of our flight attendants think that AFA should do all of the dirty work that is required, without their having to get involved. I see this more of a systemic problem within the UAL MEC, rather than AFA national. I don't really want to get into the pissing match that has overtaken this thread, but if you believe that collective bargaining isn't for you Aisle Hopper, then vote NO. If and when the industry consolidates, I don't know how much of a leg your workgroup is going to have to stand on based on a non-binding memo from Delta management.

In recent years, AFA has done little or nothing for the UA flight attendants, and even less for US, and NW. All I 've seen, thus far, from AFA is a lot of chest beating, a lot of noise, a lot of smoke, and no fire. AFA's successes were mainly in the 1970's. UA's flight attendant contract of the late 1990's, for example, left much to be desired.

AFA was powerless in saving the UA flight attendant's pensions; powerless in preventing UA from going back on promises it made to the early retirees of 2002; powerless in protecting the flight attendants out on sick and injury for more than 3 years (UA changed the maximum period of inactive status while out on SK or injury from 7 years to 3 years, and separated all those unable to return); the list goes on.

My friends at UA are sick of AFA, and complain long and loud about how AFA is nothing but big business, and that Pat Friend is "at it" again, trying to bankrupt the union.

Delta flight attendants joining AFA does not help the current AFA flight attendants one bit. The benefits to the Delta flight attendants are arguable, at best.

 

[FA Mikey]

Different strokes for different folks; you know?

My friends would rather die than do the short layovers some of the domestic people t AA ahave to do, but there are many other things they envy that we have over here. One of those things is the ability to fly whatever we want to fly whenever we want to fly it when we are on a line month. That limit you guys have on hours, the difficulty trading, and the WOP thing seem kind of annoying. The other major thing they woud love to have is the knowledge of exactly what position you are going to be when you show up at the airplane.

Comparatively speaking, from listening to my UAL friends, there's nothing you guys have that would entice me to work there except the 747-400. I use my friend's passes all the time and those nasty agents you guys have take the cake. Whoever trains them to all be that way should start an attack dog training school. They'd be rich.

Well said, I am one of those who bids for the shortest layovers with the highest time trips. Three legs, three legs with a ten hour layover in between. Isn't always interesting to read how AA's contract was gutted, and all the work rules we lost. As heard from a friend of a friend. Wouldn't it be nice if these so called know it all's in AA's FA's CBA would quote all the rules we lost and why it is of so great importance, over the general quotes of we lost So Much more than anyone else.

 

[StraaightTaalk]

I had no idea until reading this that Beauty was a UAL FA. I thought you were a former TWA FA. WHY are you over here all the time? Isn't there anything going on on the UAL board?

Here's the skinny, beauty, we separate international and domestic because the majority of us prefer it to be that way. Some people hate domestic and others hate international. It's the same reason we don't vote in straight reserve. We don't see the point in endlessly torturing people. If it's July or December, DOM and INTL FA's can volunteer for either operation. The DOM FAs can only volunteer for the INTL sector if their ditching qualification is current. Most of the time the people who resigned international for domestic are given the option to keep their ditching current when they get to recurrent even if they are domestic when they go. I used to switch back and forth and always kept mine current so I didn't have to go down to the farm just for an hour ditching class.

BTW, two of my best friends are UAL FAs. I live with one of them and if I had a dollar for the times she says "i've been converted again, I have standby again" and whatever you guys call that open ended trip thing where they send you off on a flight that you have no clue about, I'd be a zillionaire.

Different strokes for different folks; you know?

My friends would rather die than do the short layovers some of the domestic people t AA ahave to do, but there are many other things they envy that we have over here. One of those things is the ability to fly whatever we want to fly whenever we want to fly it when we are on a line month. That limit you guys have on hours, the difficulty trading, and the WOP thing seem kind of annoying. The other major thing they woud love to have is the knowledge of exactly what position you are going to be when you show up at the airplane.

Comparatively speaking, from listening to my UAL friends, there's nothing you guys have that would entice me to work there except the 747-400. I use my friend's passes all the time and those nasty agents you guys have take the cake. Whoever trains them to all be that way should start an attack dog training school. They'd be rich.

Dontouch can't help herself, since, I'm sure, nobody wants to have anything to do with her at UA. I call people like that, "galley clearers," because the minute they walk in and start spouting their nonsense, everybody scatters.

 

[StraaightTaalk]

Well said, I am one of those who bids for the shortest layovers with the highest time trips. Three legs, three legs with a ten hour layover in between. Isn't always interesting to read how AA's contract was gutted, and all the work rules we lost. As heard from a friend of a friend. Wouldn't it be nice if these so called know it all's in AA's FA's CBA would quote all the rules we lost and why it is of so great importance, over the general quotes of we lost So Much more than anyone else.

These know-it-alls, like dontouch, have to do whatever they can to convince themselves that they don't have it so bad themselves.

I am sure donttouch is just as unpopular on the line at UA as she is here on this board.

 

[StraaightTaalk]

Any flight attendant group even considering going with AFA at this point should have their heads examined.