Want afa-CWA representation? Just wait for the afa-CWA Raid

[donttouchthebeauty]

Come on BEARS, right this time? I dont think so. Its a JR FA's speculating about CBA's of carrier that they know nothing about. Anyone can say Oh our CBA or our work rules are better. But better for who? I like the work rules here. One persons heaven is another's hell.

As the JR FA points out this is not their primary source of income. Pointing it out, and yet in the same sentence telling us all its none of our business. Here is a thought, if that were true, and the case simply keep it to yourself next time. I know I would jump at the chance to be a new hire at UAL sitting straight reserve just for the fun of it.

Oh yes how soon I forget, Junior flight attendants should be disrespected and disregarded... After all you were never junior yourself huh? I speculate that you are thinking that just b/c one doesn't work at AA, they know nothing about the company... That FA Mikey is naive and immature. We study contracts of other airlines to try and better our own at point of negotiation. Why do you think DAL never had a contract? It is b/c the company was always able to give them comparable work rules to other carriers until hard times... Now they are realizing those things can be taken away at the whim of a managers decision. In regards to your last sentence. I am on a thing called call in reserve, something you know nothing about... I find out my trip the day before and I hold weekends off, all that along with being so junior, you must be in tears now. If I wanted a move up I could hold that as well, I mainly just care about my days off though, I also get trips such as Beijing, Shanghai, Seoul, Teipei, Osaka, London, Frankfurt, SO AM, ---- So quite frankly i think i made the right choice... I see my friends at AA with 12 years working weekends and shotty trips... I am familiar with your work rules and I have seen your contract and I do know what I am NOT missing... Keep telling yourself you have it good, obviously you have been doing it so long you believe it. what it takes you 30 years to do I am already doing.. Along with spending days like today tomorrow and sunday with family and friends... sell the pep talk to one of your fellow co-workers, they obviously believe it.

 

[FWAAA]

On the plus side, at least DTTB is sparing us from their racist hatred displayed recently on another airline's forum.

 

[donttouchthebeauty]

Exactly Mike. Yet I find it funny she knows what we want and what Delta wants. Apparantly Delta F/A's don't want a union. Maybe she should figure out what her co-workers want first. I can't tell you how many times I get the real scoop on the EL on the way to work. It cracks me up. I also love all the false statements about how our work rules were "gutted". That is my personal favorite. I guess the AFA propaganda machine is in high gear. So after the next failure at organizing the Delta F/A's happens, which union is AFA-CWA going to "merge" with next? Maybe they can join AMFA and really make a difference. Pun intended. Just a thought about that stregth in numbers thing. How is that working for the SW Pilots and I think FedEx pilots (maybe UPS)? I think they are doing just fine without ALPA. It all really depends on how unified your individual work group or Local is. That is what gets the companies attention. DTTB, by the way since you have such a good crystal ball, regarding our future contract including our pension. Why did you not see how far the company you chose to work for would fall. Seems that you made a bad choice.

First things first, DAL flight attendants came to the AFA.. The AFA DID NOT COME TO THEM. Get your facts straight then post them... I think all airline employees should be under one union, Pilots - flight attendants - ramp - gate - mechanics.. At least the employees at any one particular airline should all be under one union, that way the push turns to a shove. My crystal ball isn't the end all be all... I just choose to look at all different aspects of things. I do not by any means think that I am secure working at ANY airline.. That is a fact!! I also don't put all my eggs in one basket, such as a pension or 401k.. I have other means of investing etc... Those that chose to risk all in one place can also lose all in one place... I know it may be hard - but think of it this way,, You are in Vegas and you have a good feeling at the table, you hand over the title to your house car etc.. and you lose, but man the feeling was great and I knew I had him beat, how could this happen to me??? You must always think smarter than the person next to you or you will only be as well off in life as the person next to you. I, as I said before could care less about MY pension b/c I don't rely on it like you do. YOU have turned your pension into a bargaining tool... Now that is gone at most carriers so we will move onto other things like restoring pay and other things that need to be addressed... When you negotiate you will be stuck in the mud, do you see the carrot, bite it!!!! AMR will tell you that they are 20billion in debt.. and to keep those pensions we can't increase costs elsewhere. I may be wrong but i highly doubt it. So take it and twist it how you want, but my recommendation is to step outside the box, you need to in this industry, and all airline workers deserve to be treated fairly and we have all taken a beating.. If you use the same tactics at the bargaining table everytime you arrive, you will lose.. But Hey, I must say - don't drop the spirit stick, it is BAD luck!!! =)

 

[IORFA]

Why do you spend so much time over here sharing with us your misinformed opinions? If UA is so great, why aren't your junior AA "friends" quitting to work with you since it is so much better?

 

[donttouchthebeauty]

Why do you spend so much time over here sharing with us your misinformed opinions? If UA is so great, why aren't your junior AA "friends" quitting to work with you since it is so much better?
[/qu


Is that all you can ammo back with??? I am not misinformed sweet pea, it is you that has fog around ya.. If I am wrong about something that I have posted I will gladly eat humble pie and admit it, so please reply about all that I have been misinformed of in detail please... FACTS FACTS FACTS ... sometimes they HURT HURT HURT

 

[IORFA]

Still waiting for your facts. How were our work rules gutted? Where is that 20 Billion debt you talk about? Do you have any idea what level our pension is funded at? Since you talk about it so much. Why did your F/A's quit by the bus load, but not ours? Maybe it is your work rules that are less than desirable. Ever think of that? If your friends knew our contract, they could do all the international flying they wanted to do if they were motivated to use the contract. Maybe your problem is that you are just as misinformed as your "friends". By the way, how much money did UA make last year for the full year not including the paper gains from exiting bancruptcy? How huch through the first 6 months this year? Surprising that it is less than AA, yet all our work groups make more than UA. So yes, I can see how you can be confused.

 

[StraaightTaalk]

Still waiting for your facts. How were our work rules gutted? Where is that 20 Billion debt you talk about? Do you have any idea what level our pension is funded at? Since you talk about it so much. Why did your F/A's quit by the bus load, but not ours? Maybe it is your work rules that are less than desirable. Ever think of that? If your friends knew our contract, they could do all the international flying they wanted to do if they were motivated to use the contract. Maybe your problem is that you are just as misinformed as your "friends". By the way, how much money did UA make last year for the full year not including the paper gains from exiting bancruptcy? How huch through the first 6 months this year?

Exactly. What about all the dispirited UA flight attendants I share hotel limos with who make our flight attendants look positively happy?

Ms. Donttouch is delusional. If UA were the Titanic, to which it has been likened many times, then she is the person planning what she is going to have for breakfast in the Grand Saloon the next day even as the first persons begin to drown.

 

[StraaightTaalk]

Why do you spend so much time over here sharing with us your misinformed opinions?

Because she was turned down by AA when she applied and she's had it out for AA and its people ever since, desperately trying to convince herself she is better off.

Funny how she still hasn't figured out how to quote in a reply, and let's not forget her utterly uneducated manner of writing.

 

[donttouchthebeauty]

Because she was turned down by AA when she applied and she's had it out for AA and its people ever since, desperately trying to convince herself she is better off.

Funny how she still hasn't figured out how to quote in a reply, and let's not forget her utterly uneducated manner of writing.

Now that is FUNNYYYYYY!!!! I have never applied to AA nor would I... So don't thrill yourself. It is not my friends who inform me, it is my own eyes that see your contract and read it for myself... On the other hand IORFA says that the limo rides have been filled with bitter people, you bet UA employees are bitter as they have every right to be. It is about pension not about work rules though!! Actually I had a passenger on my trip yesterday talking to us about our job etc.. He told us that we did a very good job in business class and he flies multiple airlines and the ones that are the worst are AA flight attendants, He said I understand the frustration but you guys do a good job of hiding it when coming to work... Now after that - of course not all crews are that way on either side however I wouldn't go as far as to say that all of our crews say how good you have it.. The ones you hear moaning are the ones that have significant years and lost the pension, it is a big loss and they have every right to be mad... Do you still get crew meals IORFA??? Thought so... Can you bid back and forth between domestic and international within the same month??? thought so... Do you have a 36 hour relax after international flights??? ummm lets see should i go on, yes, Can you bid europe or asia??? no.. How many hours do you have for a call out on reserve .. Do I hear a minimum 4 hours ... Nope..... Thats just to start... but hey the profits are rolling in right.... So be happy for yourself and see if that supports your argument in negotiations. The profits are coming n everywhere SWA US UAL - AA should make more money than UAL though it is a larger corporation.. Oh and as for the quote comment, I can do many things that I am sure would blow your mind.. I write for your understanding. You obviously need simplicity in your life... I must say I have worked at 2 airlines in my life, I applied for two and was hired immediately by both, so please take your flattery elsewhere. I don't hate AA like you think I do... I just think many of the AA posters on here are very dillusional and very arrogant and nasty.. Most people that I come in contact with are very nice people, but of course we do have exceptions to every rule now don't we.... Now please do tell what is so much better about your contract please... Let it all out and give me specifics, you can do it.... IORFA STRAAIGHT ANYONE????? I think I should try on my new outfit and head out for the eve but it should be very interesting to see what blubber you have posted tomorrow, PLEASE don't make a fool of yourself!!! CHOW CHICAS!!!

 

[IORFA]

Yes ma'am I still do get crew meals on some flights. If we don't, there is always food left over on the international flights. Not a problem. I would rather be paid more and bring my own food, which I am guaranteed to like, than rely on a company provided crew meal. Maybe that is just me, but please do enjoy that meal. I also get 36 hours off after international trips sometimes even 48, which only I can reduce. But if you had any knowledge of our contract, you would know that. Why would I want 36 hours off after every trip? I commute and want to get it over with, not sit around for a day and a half waiting to be able to go back to work. Yes, we can do international and domestic in a given month. Sometimes, even on reserve. I don't want to though. I would guess 90% or more of the people that fly international have no desire to do any domestic trips. The vast majority are more than happy with the way we do it here. If they aren't, they are very new and don't want to put in their dues to get to that point, or they refuse to commute to an Int'l base. If you really read the contract or had knowledgable "friends" you would know that. Yes we can also bid Europe and Asia. There is no restriction to doing one or the other. As a matter of fact, some lines for OCT. have PVG and LHR on them. Some pure lines, some not. WOW, I can see why your work rules are so much better. One of the biggest differences in the way we are scheduled is that we, AA, prefer to be home more than it seems UA-AFA-CWA does. We go to work and come home. No mini vacation on every trip. Which is what our membership has said they want. On the call out language, it is 2 hours to sign in, but they know full well that we might not make it. They usually waive sign-in, and if you miss your flight, most are smart enough to blame it on a multitude of things. I.E. daycare, traffic, shower, car problems etc. So what else you got? Try reading the contract next time, if you really have access to one.

 

[StraaightTaalk]

I have but one overriding thought when reading through Ms. Donttouch's posts, replete with run-on sentences; lack of punctuation; misspellings; semi-coherent thoughts, as well as assorted rants and raves....

Ignorant is as ignorant does.

UA really was scraping bottom when they hired THAT one.

 

[Bob Owens]

All the flight attendants in one union? Great idea, should have been done twenty years ago. MEC electing the President, bad idea, detail to be sorted out after unification of the craft.

The facts are clear, the only people who suffered with all the bankruptcy chaos in the airline industry are airline employees. The industry chopped up each group, one at a time until they got everything they wanted, only one union fought back. All the rest were too weak to even think about resisting, some like the TWU were in cahoots with the company.

In order for the AFA to be successful Pat Friend would have to go because she stood in line with the rest of the failed union leaders and did nothing to protect her members, she did not share in the pain, she has no credibility.

Get into one union but make sure that those who were responsible for what happened are removed first. The penalty for such a monumental failure must be that they are removed from office otherwise how could any reasonable person expect that the same thing would not happen again?

A good friend of mine is an AA FA, his 2006 income was the same as his 1996 income. Sad, very sad. That means in real terms he earnings were at least 30% LESS.




Maybe the CWA should approach AMFA?

 

[nbmcg01]

All the flight attendants in one union? Great idea, should have been done twenty years ago. MEC electing the President, bad idea, detail to be sorted out after unification of the craft.

The facts are clear, the only people who suffered with all the bankruptcy chaos in the airline industry are airline employees. The industry chopped up each group, one at a time until they got everything they wanted, only one union fought back. All the rest were too weak to even think about resisting, some like the TWU were in cahoots with the company.

In order for the AFA to be successful Pat Friend would have to go because she stood in line with the rest of the failed union leaders and did nothing to protect her members, she did not share in the pain, she has no credibility.

Get into one union but make sure that those who were responsible for what happened are removed first. The penalty for such a monumental failure must be that they are removed from office otherwise how could any reasonable person expect that the same thing would not happen again?

A good friend of mine is an AA FA, his 2006 income was the same as his 1996 income. Sad, very sad. That means in real terms he earnings were at least 30% LESS.
Maybe the CWA should approach AMFA?

Good idea in principle but the AFA is just a step child of ALPA. They have been more of an association than a union and have not effectively used their current membership to effect change.

 

[Bob Owens]

Good idea in principle but the AFA is just a step child of ALPA. They have been more of an association than a union and have not effectively used their current membership to effect change.

Whats better a good idea in principle or a bad idea in place? If the idea is sound then all they have to do is get competant leadership, better than trying to patch up a bad idea with better leaders.

When the AA FAs decided to leave the TWU they approached the AFA who turned them away (bad move), the APFA was formed as a second choice because their first choice was unavailable.

Many years ago one of the founders of the APFA addressed a group of mechanics who were trying to oust the TWU and she shared her experiences, she was the one who told us of their goals and struggles.

On the whole which group has been more successful at promoting the profession the AFA or the APFA? Add into consideration that the APFA has it easier in that they only represent FAs at the largest and one of the most profitable carriers ever.

 

[galleyguy4u2]

It appears that labor relations are not so good at UA after all.






chicagotribune.com
Activism climbing at airline unions
Leaders pressured to take harder line
By Julie Johnsson

Tribune staff reporter

September 16, 2007


United Airlines pilots have put a new face on labor unrest—it's a giant inflatable rat holding bags of money, the pilots' latest universal description of upper management.

United's unionized pilots last month used the rodent to greet passengers at the Seattle-Tacoma International Airport as they were checking in, the latest in a series of stepped up public attacks on company management as union leaders face key elections Oct. 9.

After six years of relative calm, union activism is escalating across the airline industry. And it's not just management on the hot seat. Rank-and-file employees, seething over losing one-third or more of their pay and management's perceived greed, are striking back at the easiest targets too: the union leaders who agreed to those concessions.

As emotions rise among workers, so does the pressure on union leaders to take a harder line with management, or be replaced by someone who will.

"If Attila the Hun were running he'd be elected," said Michael Boyd, president of the Boyd Group, an Evergreen, Colo.-based consulting firm.

It's a volatile situation that appears to be building into one of the labor paroxysms that seize major airlines each decade. The last spasm, in the late 1990s and 2000, resulted in rich contract concessions that helped speed some carriers, including United, into bankruptcy when the market for air travel collapsed following the Sept. 11, 2001, attacks.

Momentum swung labor's way, some experts say, when Northwest Airlines pilots last month won time-and-a-half overtime pay from a management team known for its unyielding stance on labor issues.

Pilot shortages had forced Northwest to cancel thousands of flights during June and July. Executives blamed the weather, air-system congestion and pilot absenteeism for the disruptions; pilots said inadequate staffing was at fault.

"Every five to seven years the baseball bat changes hands," said Kit Darby, an airline pilot who is president of Atlanta-based AIR Inc., a firm that specializes in pilot recruiting and job placement. "I think we have the official changing of the baseball bat."

Already pilot contract talks are under way at American, Continental and Southwest Airlines and are expected to set the tone for the rest of the industry through the end of the decade.

Negotiations at American, the world's largest carrier, are of particular interest to other airlines and unions because of the ill will that has crept into labor relations since unions voluntarily gave up pay in 2003 to keep the carrier out of bankruptcy.

American's pilots say they are in no mood to be conciliatory. They are angered by incentive plans that have granted rich payouts to senior executives but not to other employees.

In fact, talks ground to a halt this summer after pilots voted out union chief Ralph Hunter, who presided over the 2003 talks. Lloyd Hill, who replaced Hunter, has vowed to take a more aggressive stance. Negotiations are set to resume Oct. 2.

"Across the industry, pilots are done giving up [pay] and we're ready to recoup some of the losses," said David Aldrich, a Miami-based pilot for American and a spokesman for the Allied Pilots Association, the independent union representing the carrier's 8,325 pilots. "Management's had time to fix the store since 2001. It's time to stop giving away our services."

Airline executives counter that any large-scale giveback to employees would threaten their financial recovery, especially with oil prices reaching record highs.

"We're in a difficult position in that regard at the moment," said Mark Burdette, vice president for employee relations at American Airlines. "We're having to find ways of basically educating employees on the fact that there's been a fundamental restructuring of the industry. The folks who've gone through bankruptcy have undercut us on unit labor costs."

AirlineForecasts LLC, a Virginia-based market research firm, estimates that a 10 percent increase in labor expenses would cost American about $700 million per year and United about $400 million per year, potentially wiping out much of the profits the carriers would otherwise earn.

"Emotions are high, expectations are high," Darby said. "The worst situation is if you have very high [worker] expectations and the company's bottom line doesn't support it."

There is no imminent threat of a strike at American or other carriers. After all, federal law limits pilots and other unionized airline workers from job actions until talks wind their way through the National Mediation Board. Even then, the president or Congress could intervene, as President Bill Clinton did in 1997 to block a strike by pilots at American.

Even so, pilots, literally and figuratively, have their hands on the throttle at major airlines and can disrupt operations just by sticking to the letter of their contract, analysts say. More than any other employee group, they determine whether flight schedules flow smoothly. They cannot be outsourced or easily replaced with new hires. And with staffing leaner than it has ever been, carriers depend on pilots to volunteer for extra duty.

Just how testy labor relations get at United will depend in large part on who its pilots choose to replace Mark Bathurst, a United director who is stepping down as chairman of the United chapter of the Air Line Pilots Association when his term expires next month.

It's not certain who is in the running to replace Bathurst, since campaigning is generally done in pilots lounges, over dinner or via phone. Only leaders from the airline's eight major domiciles, or home bases, are eligible to vote. And even they may not know who's in the running until nominating speeches begin after lunch on Oct. 9.

Insiders think there's a good chance United's pilots will turn to a more activist leader, like their peers at American Airlines.

If ALPA falters it could hand critical momentum to a dissident group, known as the United Pilots Association, that seeks to displace it as the group representing pilots at the nation's second-largest carrier. So far the upstarts have collected ballots from about 1,500 pilots, far short of the 3,700 ballots they need to be certified by labor officials to hold a run-off election to challenge the incumbent union.

"Is ALPA starting to listen at United Airlines? Yes, I think they are," said Karl Richcreek, an Airbus A320 captain who is president of the United Pilots Association. "The discontent among pilots is huge."

Adding to the pressure for United Chief Executive Glenn Tilton to defuse the labor issue is that for the first time in United's history all of the company's union contracts will be open for renegotiation at the same time in 2010.

"What's important for all of our stakeholders is to have a sustainable company that can compete in a challenging and unpredictable environment, such as one that has fuel at $80 a barrel," said United spokeswoman Jean Medina. "We are focused on making the right decisions for United and all of our constituents. We meet with our employees regularly and will continue to discuss issues that are mutually beneficial."

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