Voting!

[Boomer]

I don't see how it is spineless to vote to avoid committing career suicide. You can talk the big talk all you want to, but the bottom line is that a strike will lead to shrinking operations in the best case, and liquidation in the worst.

So your best case scenario is more lost jobs at AA, and your worst is that we ALL lose our jobs. Very smart strategy indeed.

Who says that a vote no will result in a strike? When was the last time the TWU struck anyone at AA?

Most have been saying that a vote no result for the TWU M&R will result in us being put on the back burner for six months to a year.

IMHO you are dealing FUD: Fear, Uncertainty and Doubt.

Are you telling us that the AFL-CIO TWU Title III, at AA, will do to us what the AFL-CIO IAM did to AMFA at NWA?

You forget that most, if not all, of the job functions held by other AFL-CIO Unions at other airlines, by the Maintenance and Related, were previously conceeded by the TWU at AA with "Mr. Little" to no compensation to the M&R for jobs lost.

Are you telling us that the APFA at AA and the APA at AA will do what the AFL-CIO AFA-CWA and AFL-CIO ALPA did to AMFA at NWA?

How could they given that we are AFL-CIO TWU and the other two unions on the property are not: shouldn't they tremble in fear of the awesome power of the AFL-CIO and our great heritage in taking care of our own?

Get a life, and a career: send in cards that will set the deadwood packing, vote no and go AMP.

 

[Ken MacTiernan]

I don't see how it is spineless to vote to avoid committing career suicide. You can talk the big talk all you want to, but the bottom line is that a strike will lead to shrinking operations in the best case, and liquidation in the worst.

So your best case scenario is more lost jobs at AA, and your worst is that we ALL lose our jobs. Very smart strategy indeed.

By voting yes to the t/a you indicate a spine is needed?

What big talk are you speaking about? Strike? Who ever said anything about strike?

A yes vote on this t/a IS career suicide.

A no vote on this t/a enables those who take pride in their craft and profession to protect and defend not only our futures but those who will be following in our footsteps. It is OUR responsibility to ensure decent pay and benefits for those who will someday take over for us as stewards of our craft and profession.

It takes a spine to stand up for what you believe in. But you already knew that.

 

[Bob Owens]

To me the bottom line is most of the guys that are talking smack would most likely be the first ones to cross the lines causing a failure of a strike. They have no faith in the union leadership, (me neither), no faith in their co workers, (me neither) and no faith in themselves because they are in hock up to their eyeballs. I for one do not fall into the latter category.

I remember back in the late 90s we had in incident that involved the TV tabloid show "Hard Copy". Prior to that there was a lot of discontent over the 6 year 6% conract that Koziatek sold with the Lie of a "Me Too" Clause tied to the Pilots contract (sound familiar, can you say "Wage opener"). Just like this time the TWU sent something the company probably wrote for them that included all the reasons to vote Yes but omitted the reasons to vote No. However much of that discontent was vented off by turning on each other and the TWU instead of the company. Guys said the same things about each other and stated that we would never stick together. You had the company lackeys who blamed the union for all of it as they jumped through hoops trying to please management, you had the slugs that really didnt want to do anything if it involved a tool other than a pen, and you had everything in between. The only near concensus that existed is that none of us would ever see the day when we would stick togther, well a management blunder put an end to that. Management did something that the guys saw as unfair that they could not pin on the union. Lo and behold the seemingly impossible happened , the guys stuck together, sure there were a few weak links however they eventually towed the line because they did not want to be forever branded.

We paid a price for it, they eventually sent us Cobbett who has been busting our chops ever since, but most still feel it was worth it. The company even staged their own in 2000 in order to try and get a TRO against us.

Where you guys are now is where we were then, in hock, fustrated, and left with a feeling of hopelessness with as you say no faith in the union, no faith in their coworkers and no faith in themselves but sometimes people suprise you for the better. A lot of guys were suprised here, management was totally suprised, the pilots were shocked (for the most part we got a lot more respect from those guys after that, after a day they started writing up more and made it even easier) our guys are willing to do it again, I get asked all the time, I tell them I cant give an order, so now they are waiting to see if anybody else is ready. Are they? Its hard to tell, the mood changed in an instant when the Hard Copy Incident occurred, many at first were hesitant, afraid, but when people realized that this was management, and management alone, there was no way to spin the blame to the TWU, the International or the Local leadership there was no stoping it.

The company made threats, the guys didnt care. The company flew the B-checks to Tulsa, and diverted work away in an attempt to frighten the guys, we were unfazed. A week earlier and most would have sh!+ themselves, not this time. The guys were determined to do it till the issue was settled no matter what. When the East Coast Director flew in with all his threats they simply all got up and walked out of the room on him. He had a fit. When they flew in Supervisors from all over the system to bird-dog us someone called the Port and told them that AA had guys without Port Ids on the ramp, the Port came over and threatened the company with the arrest of those without Port IDs and a fine for each person against AA. The company was very determined as well, they even released false reports which where broadcast by the corporate media, I remember hearing the radio on my way to work 'American Airlines is reporting weather related delays and cancellations at JFK ". What? Was there a big thundercloud over the AA Terminal but clear everywhere else?

It may happen again, it must, if it doesnt then things will continue to get worse for us. Basically our professionalism is our undoing, as long as we continue to produce at an acceptable rate the company, the NMB and even our own International take that as proof that our conditions are acceptable. This International administration will never call for it, it didnt come from there during Hard Copy. In fact they sent Gless to the floor to try and put a stop to it. He soon realized that was a mistake. They will never do anything to piss off AMR, that conviction became more grounded when I saw the insert in the ballott. While Jim Little would insist that this was not a good deal in E-mails he refused to say so publically, instead he authorized the pro passage insert to be stuffed into the ballotts and claimed it wasnt an endorsement.

 

[iluvaa]

By voting yes to the t/a you indicate a spine is needed?

What big talk are you speaking about? Strike? Who ever said anything about strike?

A yes vote on this t/a IS career suicide.

A no vote on this t/a enables those who take pride in their craft and profession to protect and defend not only our futures but those who will be following in our footsteps. It is OUR responsibility to ensure decent pay and benefits for those who will someday take over for us as stewards of our craft and profession.

It takes a spine to stand up for what you believe in. But you already knew that.

So if you disagree with Ken the great you need a spine, I guess in America you can't have differing opinions anymore. but then again you are an officer of the TWU, you know what's best for all of us .

 

[enough already]

spineless
adj 1: weak in willpower [syn: namby-pamby, wishy-washy]
2: lacking courage or vitality; "he was a yellow gutless worm";
"a spineless craven fellow" [syn: gutless] [ant: gutsy]

 

[Bob Owens]

So if you disagree with Ken the great you need a spine, I guess in America you can't have differing opinions anymore. but then again you are an officer of the TWU, you know what's best for all of us .

So in your opinion we are being paid enough? By voting yes thats exactly what you are saying, thats how the Company, the Union and the Goverment interpret a Yes vote even if you dont mean it.

Do you desire to give more concessions and accept a lower standard of living despite soaring revenues or is it that you just dont want to fight for it?

Everyone desires more, if you wont fight for what you desire or what you feel you deserve then yes, it does make you spineless, however if you are of the opinion that we dont deserve more than what the company is offering then maybe you're not spineless, the missing part is upstream of that.

 

[iluvaa]

Yes Bob I do think that higher cost of living places like NY should make a lot more but around here this is a pretty good wage I didn't bring this pos back for a vote so don't be mad at me.

 

[Bob Owens]

Yes Bob I do think that higher cost of living places like NY should make a lot more but around here this is a pretty good wage I didn't bring this pos back for a vote so don't be mad at me.

Neither did I.

 

[iluvaa]

But you didn't address the other comments in my post

 

[Interested]

Just curious here. Besides the ex-president of local 514, several other big line stations voted to bring this junk back to us. Does anybody know why?

 

[Ken MacTiernan]

So if you disagree with Ken the great you need a spine, I guess in America you can't have differing opinions anymore. but then again you are an officer of the TWU, you know what's best for all of us .

If you disagree with me that does not mean a person doesn't possess a spine. Try reading what I posted again. If you are unable to comprehend ask someone else to explain the King's English to you.

In America you can have a different opinion but if that opinion is posted behind an alias and that opinion is negaitve towards my craft and profession I would claim that individual has trouble walking erect.

Thanks for pointing out that I am an Officer for the twu. Perhaps I would know what is wrong for my craft. This t/a is just that... vote no.

 

[High Speed Steel]

If you disagree with me that does not mean a person doesn't possess a spine. Try reading what I posted again. If you are unable to comprehend ask someone else to explain the King's English to you.

In America you can have a different opinion but if that opinion is posted behind an alias and that opinion is negaitve towards my craft and profession I would claim that individual has trouble walking erect.

Thanks for pointing out that I am an Officer for the twu. Perhaps I would know what is wrong for my craft. This t/a is just that... vote no.

Ken, If you are an OFFICER of the TWU why don't you start acting like one....geeesh

 

[Rogallo]

Ken, If you are an OFFICER of the TWU why don't you start acting like one....geeesh

:huh: :huh:

 

[Boomer]

Ken, If you are an OFFICER of the TWU why don't you start acting like one....geeesh

I'm not Ken, but from what I know of him:

1) He doesn't get arrested for beating his wife;
2) He doesn't lose his position and flying priviledges for fighting with his wife on an airplane;
3) He doesn't get reprimanded and temporarily removed from office for boning another Local Presidents' fiance;
4) He doesn't agree to secret letters of agreement;
5) He doesn't agree to secret negotiations;
6) He doesn't agree to tentative collective bargaining agreements whose final language will only be negotiated after it is voted in;
7) He doesn't agree that unions should split one group against the other;
8) He doesn't agree that unions should give away benefits;
9) He doesn't agree that unions should eat their young;
10) He doesn't agree that Officers of the TWU should profit when the membership suffers;
11) He doesn't agree that Unions should have International Officers that are unelected directly by the membership;
12) He doesn't agree that Unions shouild have International Officers capable of accepting contracts without a membership vote.

The TWU International Officers/Representatives and many TWU Local Officers believe that all of the above are OK.

Of the items above: what part of being a TWU Officer do you want him to be?

 

[Ken MacTiernan]

I'm not Ken, but from what I know of him:

1) He doesn't get arrested for beating his wife;
2) He doesn't lose his position and flying priviledges for fighting with his wife on an airplane;
3) He doesn't get reprimanded and temporarily removed from office for boning another Local Presidents' fiance;
4) He doesn't agree to secret letters of agreement;
5) He doesn't agree to secret negotiations;
6) He doesn't agree to tentative collective bargaining agreements whose final language will only be negotiated after it is voted in;
7) He doesn't agree that unions should split one group against the other;
8) He doesn't agree that unions should give away benefits;
9) He doesn't agree that unions should eat their young;
10) He doesn't agree that Officers of the TWU should profit when the membership suffers;
11) He doesn't agree that Unions should have International Officers that are unelected directly by the membership;
12) He doesn't agree that Unions shouild have International Officers capable of accepting contracts without a membership vote.

The TWU International Officers/Representatives and many TWU Local Officers believe that all of the above are OK.

Of the items above: what part of being a TWU Officer do you want him to be?

Boomer, it seems as if you know me very well.