Virgin appearently wins gates at DAL

[WorldTraveler]

then if Virgin isn't a new entrant, it makes the DOJ's actions even more illegal because the federal government is PROHIBITED from interfering in the open function of the free market to provide access.

Choosing an LCC is tantamount to influencing the pricing environment and the government is prohibited from doing that.

Now that Virgin has released their schedules, it is more and more apparent that DL's proposal creates more NEW SEATS for N. Texas than Virgin's who only is transferring half of their proposed seats from DFW.

WN won't ever gate access to any more gates at DAL and will likely have to share the ones they have.

B6 will likely show up since they don't have to pay AA to be there and it will cost WN access to gates for B6 to show up.

keep the popcorn handy. There will be a whole lot of people who will be disappointed how this will all turn out - and I won't be one of them.

meanwhile over at DFW, regardless of what happens at DAL, there will be more and more competition. AA will be fighting it off left and right...

 

[700UW]

Are you that obtuse?
 
No where did the DOJ state in the divestiture it has to be a new entrant.
 
Stop making up things and posting lies and misinformation.
 
Once again, show us the specific law and statue that the DOJ cant do what it has done?
 
Dont you think AA has deep pockets and would have gone to trial if the DOJ couldnt do it?
 
Take of the DL glasses and use your brain for a change.
 
Where is the legal challenge over DCA and LGA that YOU said was going to happen?
 
And by the way the Judge approved the merger fully the other day.
 
So you are out of luck.
 
You are focused on "new entrant" no one ever said VX was or wasnt, nor did the DOJ say it had to be a new entrant.
 
And DL flies into DAL VX doesnt.
 
And when VX couldnt get into ORD, the DOJ nor VX could do anything about it, they couldnt force any existing airline to vacate a gate or sublease a gate or share a gate.
 
So keep making things up and grasping at straws.

 

[WorldTraveler]

Virgin got into ORD; you seem to forget that little fact.

There is no other mechanism other than for WN and existing tenants at DAL to give up gates to allow new entrants to serve the market based on federal airport access laws.

AA/US STUPIDLY signed a divestiture agreement with the DOJ; DL did not. DL's presence in N. Texas is governed by the same airport access laws that govern any other airport.



I'm grasping for nothing.

You are deadly afraid that I will be shown once again to be right about an issue which has consumed this board for months.


It will absolutely kill you to see a DL painted aircraft at DAL but the chances of that are far, far higher than you want to admit.

And DL will have demonstrated once again that it can succeed in the midst of true competition which is exactly what AA, Virgin, and WN have tried to avoid.

 

[700UW]

VX took over two years to get into chicago, as they didnt want to use the International gates that were available at the time.
 
So two years later they finally got into ORD.
 
It didnt happen overnight.

Dont let the facts get in your way.

 

But when it tried to go to O’Hare, it said it couldn’t find gates. That’s not entirely true. It could have operated out of the international terminal, but it didn’t want to pay the higher costs and it didn’t want to have to use buses to get to airplanes. (Apparently all the gates in that terminal would have been full during some desired departure times.) It also could have gotten itself gates from legacy airlines at the airport, but I’m sure it just didn’t want to pay the price of admission. So it waited . . . and waited.
 
What’s changed? Concourse L, that’s what. O’Hare has a problem in that it controls very few of the gates at its own airport. The rest are on long term leases to airlines. So when a new airline wants to come into the airport, O’Hare can’t really get very involved in that process other than to facilitate discussions. Then an opportunity came up with Concourse L.
Delta controlled the 11-gate concourse L in Terminal 3 at O’Hare. When it merged with Northwest, it opted to move into Terminal 2 and take over the old Northwest gates instead. That left Terminal 3 with plenty of room. Six of those gates are actually leased out to American already. (American controls the rest of Terminal 3.) But those other five gates were in limbo as Delta worked on a deal.
 
Just last week, Delta agreed to turn over Concourse L to O’Hare. American will still use those six gates, but now the airport controls the other five. That opened the door for Virgin America to come in for a lot less than it would have had to pay otherwise. It also leaves the door open for others to come in as well, if they cared. It doesn’t have to stop there. That particular concourse has a little room to add on a couple of gates if they get creative enough, so there could be a nice operation there for anyone who wants the gates.
 
Now Virgin America will start service May 25 with two daily flights to LA and 3 to SFO. As you can imagine, this is not enough to take a big bite out of American and United but it can still do well. It’s the same problem the airline had when it went into Dallas. It brought a knife to a gun fight. Let’s look at this visually:
 

http://crankyflier.com/2011/02/22/virgin-america-finally-comes-to-chicago/

 

[WorldTraveler]

I didn't say it happened overnight.

The 2006 agreement that allows longhaul service from DAL SPECIFICALLY says that new entrant carriers will be accommodated first on a volunteer basis and then the airport will require tenants to accommodate new carriers.

there is no 2 year wait prescribed.

And just because Virgin didn't want to accept the gates ORD offered doesn't mean that ORD wasn't doing exactly what every US airport that receives federal funds must do and that is accommodate new entrant airlines.

It happens all the time.

swamt wants to pretend he knows nothing of those requirements and yet they are there.

you and a whole lot of people will wake up one day to find out that WN's aspirations of dominating DAL have been shot to pieces by the DOJ's land grab from AA.

 

[700UW]

How stupid are you?
 
Delta is not a new entrant.
 
Keep up that mantra, you are only making yourself look like the fool you are.
 
And when are you going to show us the laws the prevent the DOJ from doing what they did?
 
Where is the legal challenge over DCA and LGA that YOU said Delta would file?
 
VX couldnt sue ORD over no gates and neither did the DOJ or DOT.
 
It took Delta moving to for VX to get into ORD.

 

[eolesen]

VX couldn't sue ORD because there were airlines who offered subleases in the two years prior to them getting gates from the City.

VX declined to sublease, saying the going rates were too steep. But they weren't denied access.

Nothing has stopped DL from approaching UA to buy them out of their lease. As screwed up as they are right now, UA just might jump at the opportunity.

But, back to the point of DL being a "new entrant". It's a false flag. They've had a presence and opportunity to grow that presence. To try and claim that they're suddenly disadvantaged won't work.

 

[WorldTraveler]

and it is entirely possible that UA has offered... the point may be that DL is in another sublease position and may not be able to operate the size of operation it could.

also based on the DAL lease agreements, UA would have to accommodate new entrants as well. Unless they use their gates, they are having company anyway - which is probably why DL knows it can run a chunk of its proposed operation out of UA's gates regardless of what happens with Virgin. But DL doesn't want to be subject to whatever whims UA might have including deciding to sublease the gates to another carrier.

E is correct. ORD did what it had to do. There is nothing that guarantees an airline access to any airport at a cheap price. No one said that WN or DL aren't willing to pay a premium to have the gates at DAL; Virgin certainly is willing.

Further, if Virgin paid a bunch of money to American in order to get into DAL, their economics will forever bear the price of that transaction.

In a way, though, it is exactly what AA wants: a carrier that has taken millions of dollars in revenue from AA to pay for the privilege of doing it again.

The whole notion that AA should be paid to give up its lease at DAL in itself is flawed. AA can't use its lease. Unlike slots which the federal government has said are property of airlines, airport leases only provide the right for an airline to use facilities - and the lease prices that AA would have received are no different from what any other airline should pay.

It is precisely why DAL's motives get questionable for allowing the reassignment of a lease when AA can't return and the price AA pays is no different from what any other airline should pay.



BTW,
here is a good article about the whole situation with some pretty scathing comments about WN.

Most people in the Metroplex recognize that neither DFW or DAL should be dominated by one airline.

he echoes a lot of the very same comments I have made.


The biggest flaw in this reasoning is that Southwest hasn't even unveiled its scheduling data for the 15 new markets it plans to introduce starting in the fall. The carrier is allegedly going to release this information in May 2014, but likely is awaiting for the gate awarding decision to be finalized prior to doing so. Obviously, the access to two additional gates could have a scalable impact on scheduling decisions and gate assignments, so this is all fair and rational.
However, the L.E.K. findings pre-supposes the conclusion that being capped at 16 gates maximum will present major constraints for Southwest, limiting its expansion possibilities and network scale from the airport.
Again, those assumptions are entirely hyperbolic for several reasons.
For starters, Southwest IS the largest domestic airline by passengers transported. By no means is the airline constrained in terms of growth opportunities across its system-wide network other than the fact that it has chosen, on its own accord, to avoid expanding into international boundaries until its recent acquisition of AirTran. To that end, not only is the carrier commencing overseas operations starting this summer, it has also successfully managed to lobby the city of Houston to build an international gateway at Hobby airport with a Federal Inspection Services facility slated to open next year.
These, combined with the Wright Amendment deal, is another notch in the Southwest belt that gleans how it often is able to get what it wants.
The second irony in the whole situation is that Southwest has always publicly taken affront to the concept of creating "hub" airports across its system, even though it has large-scale operations at mid-continent airports in cities such as Houston, Denver, Chicago and even Dallas Love, which STILL ranks as one of its top-10 largest stations in spite of the Wright Amendment restrictions which have been in place since inception.
If Southwest truly had envisioned plans to transform Dallas into one of its largest "hub" markets, then it could have taken an economic incentive packaged offered by DFW Airport in 2005 to expand into vacated Terminal E when Delta shut down its hub at the airport. Southwest would have had access to 22 gates, 6 more beyond what it has today at Love, along with other incentives such as waived airport fees and the ability to draw from a larger traffic base centralized in the mid-cities between Dallas and Fort Worth. It could have also flown international routes from DFW, something it will not be able to do from Dallas Love.
Instead, Southwest chose to engage in a legal battle, which was victorious, albeit costly, for the carrier, and agreed to the terms of the settlement to be capped at 16 gates, and endure 8 years of only offering 1-stop connection itineraries for originating and terminating passengers into Dallas until October 2014.
Not that I believe Southwest made the wrong choice; in fact, I lauded this decision and was happy with the outcome. However, I don't think it's fair for Southwest to suddenly cry that its facing a new set of disadvantages just because the competitive landscape in its hometown city have altered dramatically since 2006. Just because Virgin America is a small and easy target, and because Southwest has political wherewithal to hire consultants and lawyers to spin the story in their favor, doesn't rectify anything.
Truth be told, Southwest is saddled by higher costs these days and its competitors have cleaned out their balance sheets via Chapter 11 bankruptcy. Its once lethargic, stagnant 800-lb gorilla across town, American Airlines, has re-emerged as a leaner foe across town, and its merger with US Airways, if executed seamlessly, will become a formidable industry giant that will be a tough force for even the likes of Delta, which has had its act together for years, to reckon with.
Speaking of Delta, cue another irony factor: the perpetrator in this whole mess who tipped over the dominoes in 2005 when it pulled its DFW hub, edging Southwest to fight to repeal the Wright Amendment and expand options for local travelers. Now, suddenly, Delta wants to flirt with Dallas again, and this time, park itself on Southwests' own turf at Love Field. Two more gates are available at Dallas Love, and Southwest wants everything for itself?


http://upgrd.com/aerospace/virgin-america-wins-dallas-love-field-gates-announces-major-sales.html

 

[swamt]

So glad to see others see the light.   WT, get a clue man, I have been telling you this for a long time...

 

[WorldTraveler]

telling me what?

that the residents of Dallas don't want two airlines do dominate two separate airports.

that is what they are saying.

 

[FrugalFlyerv2.0]

And when are you going to show us the laws the prevent the DOJ from doing what they did?
 
Where is the legal challenge over DCA and LGA that YOU said Delta would file?

 
Although WT initially guarenteed DL would be filing a lawsuit, writing multiple diatribes about how the law is on DLs side.  Then I think over time he weaseled out of these statements just to have the ability to make a "I'm always right, you're wrong claim".
 
Like I said before, I still find it interesting that only WT is still getting his panties in a wad over the DAL gates - not a peep from DL.

 

[WorldTraveler]

I never guaranteed anything. And further, the process hasn't played out.

I'm not sure why you and 700 and robbed can't comprehend that you can't and don't file a lawsuit while the process is still going on.

DL sent dozens of pages in letters to the City of Dallas over the issue. They are far from silent. they are just doing it far quieter.

Regardless of whether DL speaks loudly or not, the entire basis that the DOJ and the discussion here has been made is based on awarding gates as if it is a route case in the regulated era.

US airport access doesn't work that way.

There is no justification needed for how much benefit a carrier brings to the table and the DOJ and the city of Dallas cannot make a decision based on the level of fares that a carrier might charge. There cannot even be a consideration of how many passengers a carrier might board vs. another.

US airport access laws and the airline deregulation act of 1978 require that the free market be allowed to function to determine who wins and loses in a market. Period. It doesn't matter if a carrier is a legacy carrier or whether the carrier is new to the metroplex or not. The only consideration is whether any carrier uses gates to the minimum levels required by an airport and they do have the right to restrict the use of gates to certain types of aircraft - such as SAN does with prohibiting CRJs at the main terminal.

what is abundantly clear is that WN will not get any further access to any more gates at DAL as long as there are other carriers that want to serve the airport and there will be.

If this case was just a decision between WN and Virgin, then it would be decided since no one with any understanding of US antitrust laws could argue that WN should be awarded more gates at an airport where it already controls 80% of them.

The case is about airport access as a whole and the City of Dallas understands it.

further, DAL will be a whole lot busier airport than WN wants because as I have noted, DAL is a whole lot more desirable location relative to the wealth centers of Dallas than any other airport is in any other multi-airport market where WN has a hub.

there will be multiple carriers at DAL and I am certain that DL will be one of them.

 

[700UW]

You stated Delta will file a legal challenge of DCA and LGA, that process is over, slots were sold and transferred and the judge approved the merger this week.
 
Try and weasel out of that.

 

[Kev3188]

You are deadly afraid that I will be shown once again to be right about an issue which has consumed this board for months.

Is that it, or are you consumed with the idea of being right?

 

It will absolutely kill you to see a DL painted aircraft at DAL but the chances of that are far, far higher than you want to admit.

Considering there are "DL painted aircraft" servicing DAL right now, does that mean he's posting from the great beyond?


 
 

Nothing has stopped DL from approaching UA to buy them out of their lease. As screwed up as they are right now, UA just might jump at the opportunity.

But, back to the point of DL being a "new entrant". It's a false flag. They've had a presence and opportunity to grow that presence. To try and claim that they're suddenly disadvantaged won't work.

^This^


 

DL sent dozens of pages in letters to the City of Dallas over the issue. They are far from silent. they are just doing it far quieter.

Sure, unless you count the very public posting of proposed flight schedules ex-DAL.

 

The case is about airport access as a whole and the City of Dallas understands it.

You've chatted them all up?
 

further, DAL will be a whole lot busier airport than WN wants...

Passenger-wise? Sure. That's an easy prediction to make. Movement-wise, probably not drastically more.
 

there will be multiple carriers at DAL and I am certain that DL will be one of them.

We're there now.

 

[robbedagain]

actually wt  most of us do comprehend  and comprehend quite well!   so that shoots out your theory that we don't comprehend     Its now up to the city of DAL but at the end of the line  I think itll go in VA favor     but then again we could be in for a shocker tooo