US Pilots Thread 11/24-12/1-Discuss Pilot Labor Issues Here

[88 B.T.D.]

Quote After the arbitration was done how did Prater convice Nicolau a well respected arbitrator to somehow come up with an “unfairâ€￾ award? Do you not think that the world would look at this award and examine it?


This has been mentioned before and is currently under litigation. ALPA was under threat from MDA improper recall fiasco and passed an improper list up to Nicolau showing pilots who were working at US Airways as on Furlough. That was done by ALPA to undercut their responsibility to those pilots and was an issue in the lawsuit. If a proper list was given to Nicolau he would have placed all the Embraer Captains ahead of West F/O to fit the rest of his award.

 

[cubfan]

Quote After the arbitration was done how did Prater convice Nicolau a well respected arbitrator to somehow come up with an “unfairâ€￾ award? Do you not think that the world would look at this award and examine it?


This has been mentioned before and is currently under litigation. ALPA was under threat from MDA improper recall fiasco and passed an improper list up to Nicolau showing pilots who were working at US Airways as on Furlough. That was done by ALPA to undercut their responsibility to those pilots and was an issue in the lawsuit. If a proper list was given to Nicolau he would have placed all the Embraer Captains ahead of West F/O to fit the rest of his award.

88, Being a MDA guy myself, I don't think that would have happened. What should have happened is all MDA or at least Capt. should have been placed above their bottom 300. Now the problem you run into is jr guys at mda vs sr guys at other j4j. You can't have people jump seniority. Also, what about a guy who did nothing. This is where ALPA really dropped the ball when the a/c were put on mainline cert. Alpa should have stopped the presses, showed MDA as recalled and had a bid for all including mainline. What could happen now is a change in order if NIC wins. I'm not sure it would totally void NIC, but could re-order it some what. Thats if MDA wins. Like I said before, it's hard for alpa to argue we weren't recalled when we had MDA guys holding mainline LEC positions. Not allowed under ALPA law.

 

[cleardirect]

Quote After the arbitration was done how did Prater convice Nicolau a well respected arbitrator to somehow come up with an “unfairâ€￾ award? Do you not think that the world would look at this award and examine it?


This has been mentioned before and is currently under litigation. ALPA was under threat from MDA improper recall fiasco and passed an improper list up to Nicolau showing pilots who were working at US Airways as on Furlough. That was done by ALPA to undercut their responsibility to those pilots and was an issue in the lawsuit. If a proper list was given to Nicolau he would have placed all the Embraer Captains ahead of West F/O to fit the rest of his award.

So now you are saying that Prater convinced the AAA MEC and MC to submit an improper and illegal seniority list? I always have to ask WHY? What would be the point? If ALPA national could have fixed their problem with a corrected list why continue with a bad one? Do they enjoy wasting money on law suits? $175,000,000 is a lot. WHY?

The litigation is against ALPA national. If this were true why are the AAA MEC members not included in the suit? All of the other counts were dropped. There is only one left. It appears weak.

Beside the latest documents are not looking good for the MDA suit. Could be running out of money or options. Looks like the MDA guys are having a hard time justifying that big number.

 

[nic4us]

Quote After the arbitration was done how did Prater convice Nicolau a well respected arbitrator to somehow come up with an “unfairâ€￾ award? Do you not think that the world would look at this award and examine it?


This has been mentioned before and is currently under litigation. ALPA was under threat from MDA improper recall fiasco and passed an improper list up to Nicolau showing pilots who were working at US Airways as on Furlough. That was done by ALPA to undercut their responsibility to those pilots and was an issue in the lawsuit. If a proper list was given to Nicolau he would have placed all the Embraer Captains ahead of West F/O to fit the rest of his award.

Or he could have saved the bottom 517 slots for the MDA RJ pilots placing them below everyone else, where I believe they reside anyway, that also would have fit the rest of his decision. My point is your conclusion of what would have happened is flawed. Under different circumstances a different decision could have been rendered, but not neccesarily the one you claim.

I am pretty over the MDA thing, because whoever passed the east list, it was certainly no one from the west. If you folks passed an improper list too bad, your not going to hold it as some sort of trump card over the west for your mistake. Well unless you go ask ALPA for a do over-Oh wait that did not work, better sue them instead.

 

[nycbusdriver]

Bus driver,

Now that is a very interesting attitude. Is that your attitude, the attitude of most of the east guys or is that the attitude of USAPA?

Because no matter what you think of yourself or USAPA this is not a dictatorship. Despite how USAPA has been run so far the company will determine what is or is not appropriate or offensive material. The company will do the investigation if an event or situation creates a hostile work environment.

No one has to go through USAPA to file a complaint.

Once more thank you for proving exactly how USAPA is NOT representing the west fairly. You are saying that only pro USAPA propaganda is allowed but any counter opinions will be prosecuted During the election did any of you sport an anti-ALPA stickers or pro USAPA? Should you have been brought up on hostile work charges because at the time ALPA was the CBA?

This is the problem when you have situational logic. When the situation changes you logic fall apart.

First, it's my opinion. I don't know, or care, if it's shared by anyone else, east west, north or south, or by any organization.

Second, the company bears responsibility for enforcing decorum when it comes to the crew rooms. USAPA, as the CBA, has contractual and legal rights to post things. ALPA does not. AWAPPA does not. AOL does not. I do not. You do not.

During the campaign, the company policy was indeed violated often by many parties. I didn't lodge a complaint, formal or otherwise, with my CP. Did you? If not, what's your beef? Is it that you now wish you could rewrite history, and somehow that's not working for you?

 

[88 B.T.D.]

Under different circumstances a different decision could have been rendered, but not neccesarily the one you claim.

I am pretty over the MDA thing, because whoever passed the east list, it was certainly no one from the west. If you folks passed an improper list too bad, your not going to hold it as some sort of trump card over the west for your mistake. Well unless you go ask ALPA for a do over-Oh wait that did not work, better sue them instead.

OK, I wasn't trying to claim to know what Nicolau would do, just going by the same pattern that he used in his synopsis...

There are probably close to 1000 folks over here that are not over the MDA thing and would never vote to reinstate ALPA under any circumstance, and we didn't lose out on our retirments as bad as many of our older folks. The ALPA lawsuit will eventually play out to some conclusion just like all the others, in due time.

 

[cubfan]

Or he could have saved the bottom 517 slots for the MDA RJ pilots placing them below everyone else, where I believe they reside anyway, that also would have fit the rest of his decision. My point is your conclusion of what would have happened is flawed. Under different circumstances a different decision could have been rendered, but not neccesarily the one you claim.

I am pretty over the MDA thing, because whoever passed the east list, it was certainly no one from the west. If you folks passed an improper list too bad, your not going to hold it as some sort of trump card over the west for your mistake. Well unless you go ask ALPA for a do over-Oh wait that did not work, better sue them instead.

NIC,
In all due respect and not to start another fight, but you may be over the MDA thing, however it is an active suit and it may have to be delt with later. I also believe ALPA is the one who is being sued, they passed the list and they were our rep's. This is all coming back to haunt them. I also feel that if you want to live and die on ALPA policy, then you may have to accept the good with the bad. I'm not saying we will win, but there is a good chance we could.

 

[fodase]

NIC,
In all due respect and not to start another fight, but you may be over the MDA thing, however it is an active suit and it may have to be delt with later. I also believe ALPA is the one who is being sued, they passed the list and they were our rep's. This is all coming back to haunt them. I also feel that if you want to live and die on ALPA policy, then you may have to accept the good with the bad. I'm not saying we will win, but there is a good chance we could.

Have you read the mda case? If you did you would realize that they have a snow ball's chance in hell of winning their lawsuit. So yeah all out west are over it, and the rest of the revisionist history coming from your side.

 

[fodase]

From Judge Wake's ruling:


"There
is no indication that US Airways intends to stall negotiations in order to avoid
implementing the Nicolau Award. US Airways accepted the Nicolau Award, as the
Transition Agreement required."

The date-of-hire policy was submitted to US
Airways on September 30, 2008, but US Airways has not yet responded."

So my usapa friends, you still think that the company did not accept and was party to the Nic? What do you the company's response to any list but the Nic. will be from now on?

 

[Tiger 1050]

From Judge Wake's ruling:


"There
is no indication that US Airways intends to stall negotiations in order to avoid
implementing the Nicolau Award. US Airways accepted the Nicolau Award, as the
Transition Agreement required."

The date-of-hire policy was submitted to US
Airways on September 30, 2008, but US Airways has not yet responded."

So my usapa friends, you still think that the company did not accept and was party to the Nic? What do you the company's response to any list but the Nic. will be from now on?

Fodase,
It's pretty clear that USAPA is trying to manage expectations. Albeit very poorly. What is sad is no matter how blatant the spin these guys out east are eating it up... Oh well.

 

[cubfan]

Have you read the mda case? If you did you would realize that they have a snow ball's chance in hell of winning their lawsuit. So yeah all out west are over it, and the rest of the revisionist history coming from your side.

fodase,
I was simply pointing out that the MDA suit is still active, I have always said and believed you have to wait till a final ruling comes out, no different than the case out west. You may be correct, but who knows. I surely hope you can check your anger until after the holidays. I'll bet your so mad you could spit.

 

[nic4us]

OK, I wasn't trying to claim to know what Nicolau would do, just going by the same pattern that he used in his synopsis...

There are probably close to 1000 folks over here that are not over the MDA thing and would never vote to reinstate ALPA under any circumstance, and we didn't lose out on our retirments as bad as many of our older folks. The ALPA lawsuit will eventually play out to some conclusion just like all the others, in due time.

Frankly, I hope you win the suit and a big monetary award against ALPA, but I feel it will not change NIC, and therefore will not effect me.....so that is why I say I am over it.

 

[nycbusdriver]

Fodase,
It's pretty clear that USAPA is trying to manage expectations. Albeit very poorly. What is sad is no matter how blatant the spin these guys out east are eating it up... Oh well.

Expectations of what?

USAPA NEVER guaranteed that they could get rid of Nic. They were the best (only) possibility of doing so, and they are going to fight no matter what the outcome. Most of the east expects that. Most of the east is quite comfortable with where we are in the process. And virtually ALL of the east knew this was going to be battled out in court. But, at least, we get to have a battle. ALPA would have precluded even that.

What's my expectation? That USAPA keep at it until all avenues are exhausted.

 

[cleardirect]

Saw this on the ATA Smart Brief. has this been discussed.beaten to death yet?

The Whole Sordid Story


federal judge has refused to block US Airways from laying off pilots from the old America West Airlines ahead of those hired by the original East Coast airline.

U.S. District Judge Neil Wake concluded that his court has no jurisdiction over the airline - at least, not until it exhausts other appeals.

Piney,

Yeah I saw that. But as usual slightly incorrect. The entire 24 page order has to be read to understand to whole thing. The judge dismissed the company but did not release them. He also warned the company that they could be on the hook for some money if he finds fault.

USAPA on the other hand was spanked in the order. The lawyer was admonished.

My favorite line

Like many other cases USAPA cites on fair representation, Rakestraw will not bear the weight USAPA places upon it.

That pretty much sums up the judges attitude in the case.

 

[Tiger 1050]

Expectations of what?

USAPA NEVER guaranteed that they could get rid of Nic. They were the best (only) possibility of doing so, and they are going to fight no matter what the outcome. Most of the east expects that. Most of the east is quite comfortable with where we are in the process. And virtually ALL of the east knew this was going to be battled out in court. But, at least, we get to have a battle. ALPA would have precluded even that.

What's my expectation? That USAPA keep at it until all avenues are exhausted.

I never said they guaranteed they'd get rid of the Nic. Go back and reread the thread. Post #5 I wrote to bring attention to the spin. Fodase just a few posts ago cited some spin. What do you say about these two examples?