US Pilots' Labor Thread 6/9-6/16--PLEASE OBSERVE THE RULES

[cleardirect]

More education needed, Hate2fly. This late in the game, its finally coming home to roost and the company's lack of interest in mediation makes west position even worse.

How is the west in a worse position?

No you guys go fight that arbitration and come back sometime late next year with an answer. If you lose as usual then what will be the next theory?

But if you win. Then I fully expect usapa to use every available resource to demand pay parity for the west. During the trial we saw the tears and heard the crying that the west did not support pay parity. So if you get it then I will wait in anticipation to see the power and leverage that usapa can bring to the table. Lets see how usapa can represent the west. But this time how about doing it fairly?

 

[Hate2fly]

Yes Parker will continue to stall. No you are not going to get LOA 84 No we are not going to get a new contract.

Check out the latest update called Road to Pay disparity. Tell usapa to stop whining about what everyone else has. What that update tells me is that us air pilots had the worst career in the industry. What was your investment worth? A new hire F/O at SWA that’s what. Your 16 years were not worth anything. That is why Nicolau placed you where you are.

That is a great explanation. Your own union just told you what you were worth.

After all of the crying where is their solution? I did not read one. Only be patient. How does that fix the problem? The only solution to that update is a new contract.

So it is the east pilots choice.

Accept the inevitableness of Nicolau and get a new contract. Otherwise STFU. I am tired about hearing what lousy wages the east has but refuses to do anything about it. You all have made a choice. That denying an arbitrated list is more important then a new contract. Fine. But live with the consequences of your actions.

Cleardirect relax this merger will never be right! The Nicster and your man Wake will make this outfit seperate for a very long time!

In the East we will just wait for the end of the year!

January 1, 2010 pay rates per Restructuring Agreement:
12th year Captain Rate 12th year F/O rate

A330--------$222.26 A330------$152.22
Group 1----$201.35 Group 1---$137.52
Group 2----$174.85 Group 2---$119.42

MDA to play out in the court room in NYC! Haber has a really good track record with ALPA!

and our 35 million!

 

[prechilill]

Cleardirect relax this merger will never be right! The Nicster and your man Wake will make this outfit seperate for a very long time!

In the East we will just wait for the end of the year!

January 1, 2010 pay rates per Restructuring Agreement:
12th year Captain Rate 12th year F/O rate

A330--------$222.26 A330------$152.22
Group 1----$201.35 Group 1---$137.52
Group 2----$174.85 Group 2---$119.42

MDA to play out in the court room in NYC! Haber has a really good track record with ALPA!

and our 35 million!

So there will be plenty of money laying around to pay for the assessments...

 

[aquagreen73s]

Enjoy each day as you don't know whether it will be your last - a CAL captain made the final journey not long ago while flying trans Atlantic. 777 is now turning around for EWR. So sorry.

However, I can't help but notice: he had a little over 20 years with CAL and he was a 777 captain. So, 20 years nets a widebody captain position at CAL (and every other major airline), but at the East it nets you a furlough ticket.

See the problem with DOH?

 

[ROACLT]

Enjoy each day as you don't know whether it will be your last - a CAL captain made the final journey not long ago while flying trans Atlantic. 777 is now turning around for EWR. So sorry.

However, I can't help but notice: he had a little over 20 years with CAL and he was a 777 captain. So, 20 years nets a widebody captain position at CAL (and every other major airline), but at the East it nets you a furlough ticket.

See the problem with DOH?

Wrong. The First Officer that replaced him had 21 years. The Captain was hired at CAL in 1977 and flew through the strike in 1983.

 

[cleardirect]

Cleardirect relax this merger will never be right! The Nicster and your man Wake will make this outfit seperate for a very long time!

In the East we will just wait for the end of the year!

January 1, 2010 pay rates per Restructuring Agreement:
12th year Captain Rate 12th year F/O rate

A330--------$222.26 A330------$152.22
Group 1----$201.35 Group 1---$137.52
Group 2----$174.85 Group 2---$119.42

MDA to play out in the court room in NYC! Haber has a really good track record with ALPA!

and our 35 million!

I agree this merger will never be right as long as the current leadership is in place.

You are incorrect that it will be Nicolau and Wake that continue separate operations. Both of those gentlemen are doing everything they can to merge this airline. It is the east pilots that are demanding separate ops. But that to shall come to an end soon.

What is going to happen at the end of the year? That would be NOTHING, ABSOLUTELY NOTHING.

Post those rates all you want. They mean NOTHING.

MDA. Please tell me when was the last filing in the lame case? I will help you out. March 30. Not a lot of action there. We are going to have a remedy and a damages trial before anything happens with that suit.

Keep kicking the can down the road. But you are only delaying the inevitable. A joint contract with the Nicolau and a big pay raise for the east pilots.

 

[aquagreen73s]

"The airline said the crew on the flight included an additional relief pilot who took the place of the deceased man. The pilot had 21 years of service with Continental, the airline said."


http://www.cnn.com/2009/US/06/18/pilot.dead/index.html

Here's another one:

"Continental Airlines released a statement saying the deceased Newark-based pilot was 61 years old, had 21 years of service with the company and died in flight of natural causes."

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,527076,00.html

That makes him an 88 hire. Furlough fodder on the East, 777 captain at CAL. See the problem with DOH?

 

[ROACLT]

"The airline said the crew on the flight included an additional relief pilot who took the place of the deceased man. The pilot had 21 years of service with Continental, the airline said."


http://www.cnn.com/2009/US/06/18/pilot.dead/index.html

Here's another one:

"Continental Airlines released a statement saying the deceased Newark-based pilot was 61 years old, had 21 years of service with the company and died in flight of natural causes."

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,527076,00.html

That makes him an 88 hire. Furlough fodder on the East, 777 captain at CAL. See the problem with DOH?

Hate to burst your bubble but he was a 77 hire at CAL, he crossed the picket line in 83.

 

[Nicstolemyjob]

Guys....take it easy. Pace yourselves or you'll burn out before the conclusion of this mess.

"Enjoy LOA93"...you all said..."while we outearn you by 20%.."

"Thanks for the profit-sharing checks..."

"...3% bump for us out west while you stumble on LOA93..."

Enjoy LOA93 under LOA84 pay?

We will....it changes everything.

 

[Megasnoop]

No you guys go fight that arbitration and come back sometime late next year with an answer. If you lose as usual then what will be the next theory?

"Lose as usual?" Not according to the $40M win for our pilots on LTD. The company was funding that with IOUs, worthless in BK. Now they have to pony up the entire amount in real $$, not Dougie Dollars. Not according to Breeger (Empire). Thrown out by the NC Federal Court.

But if you win. Then I fully expect usapa to use every available resource to demand pay parity for the west.

Absolutely, thats what we're all about.

During the trial we saw the tears and heard the crying that the west did not support pay parity. So if you get it then I will wait in anticipation to see the power and leverage that usapa can bring to the table. Lets see how usapa can represent the west. But this time how about doing it fairly?

Clear, you got us pegged. thats what we're all about. BTW, you just lost 1 BPR vote in PHX, falling under 100 MIGS. So, you guys bringing Freund back for the 9th Circuit appeal?

We did. Once usapa came on the proerty they made it quite clear that the west contract advancement was shelved.

Tell the “big lie†enough and maybe someone will believe you. ALPA was negotiating for a single contract. West MEC let a timeline slip. The COMPANY “made it quite clear that the west contract advancement was shelved†during its first contract negotiation with USAPA. They also said they wouldn’t negotiate separately with USAPA for a new East contract. Why is the truth so difficult for you to understand? When it doesn’t fit your ongoing conspiracy theorys.

I sincerely hope the east is successful in getting "snapback" wages, but all things considered, I would not rush out to buy that new car just yet. I have one question for east...if it is so certain wages will "snapback" to LOA84, why are the proposed rates in the joint contract below LOA84 rates? Why not seek the same rate or slightly higher? If LOA 84 wages apply, then the NAC is currently negotiating a concessionary contract, yes?

Since we’re negotiating for ALL LCC pilots, maybe we’re just being generous, taking one for the common good. After all, we’re ALL in this together, aren’t we? A pay win, with no single contract and only the East getting the raise (no “Me Too†clause) is close to a $$ wash when compared with our negotiations $$ demand.

Or Maybe we learned from ALPAs “DOH or Nothing†arbitration position that you got to have a plan “B†under the slight chance we lose the pay reinstatement arbitration.

I don't know why some of my fellow west pilots are against the idea of east capitalizing on any contractual obligations by the Company. It seems in the long run we will all benefit from higher wages.

Unfortunately for you, RIASU, a pay win makes it even more difficult to negotiate with the company. Theyd rather pay 2/3 of pilots our LOA84 rates than 3/3.

 

[Captain Underpants]

Keep kicking the can down the road. But you are only delaying the inevitable. A joint contract with the Nicolau and a big pay raise for the east pilots.

That is one possible scenario. The problem being that while the West might like section 22 I guarantee they won't like the other 29 contract sections.

The West has already turned down a LOS list and the one-way fence of the USAPA DOH proposal. It can only get worse from there.

Remember your greed and actions have consequences.

underpants

 

[Metroyet]

Remember your greed and actions have consequences.

underpants

Like What? Being found GUILTY by a jury of 9? Those "consequences" will be fact very shortly. Fast forward to August and that 2.3 million you guys are crying about not having will be a drop in the bucket.

It amazes me that some folks like you still don't get it...you can't end run sec. 22 and disadvantage the minority via the other sections of the contract. That is the very thing that landed usapa a verdict against it. What you are describing is simply another DFR, Another trial, another loss, and more damages. The Judge is going to go easy on you guys this time, keep effing around with the contract and your DFR style warfare with the Minority and the Judge will start to throw his weight around. Individuals are not off the hook here, Liability can land on some doorsteps. I wouldn't temp fate but then again you guys have made a career out of it.

 

[Tiger 1050]

That is one possible scenario. The problem being that while the West might like section 22 I guarantee they won't like the other 29 contract sections.

The West has already turned down a LOS list and the one-way fence of the USAPA DOH proposal. It can only get worse from there.

Remember your greed and actions have consequences.

underpants

While you may fantasize about retribution you need to realize you open the door for another DFR if you start down that path. Remember the east insisted that we be categorized as one group per the NMB. One group, one contract. No favoritism... That's a no no.

EDIT: Sorry Metro. You beat me to it.

 

[ussnark]

We did. Once usapa came on the proerty they made it quite clear that the west contract advancement was shelved.

I never saw an announcement despite calls from the east to go ahead into Section 6. In fact, could you please point to any kind of announcement that the west pilots had entered Section 6 negotiations? Just so that the rest of us can understand that you were not gaming the system?

I can certainly understand why USAPA would not want to negotiate with an extremely small percent of the west pilot group, um, as members.

 

[Nicstolemyjob]

Like What? Being found GUILTY by a jury of 9? Those "consequences" will be fact very shortly. Fast forward to August and that 2.3 million you guys are crying about not having will be a drop in the bucket.

It amazes me that some folks like you still don't get it...you can't end run sec. 22 and disadvantage the minority via the other sections of the contract. That is the very thing that landed usapa a verdict against it. What you are describing is simply another DFR, Another trial, another loss, and more damages. The Judge is going to go easy on you guys this time, keep effing around with the contract and your DFR style warfare with the Minority and the Judge will start to throw his weight around. Individuals are not off the hook here, Liability can land on some doorsteps. I wouldn't temp fate but then again you guys have made a career out of it.

Lets take that a step further, shall we?

Lets say the compensation is based on LOS..

The greater the LOS, the greater your pay.....

In fact, it is a fallacy for some to presume that all sections of the CBA will be based on the NIC...

Only section 22 governs and contains the 'seniority list'...whether it migrates throughout the contract is a matter of negotiation...

The non-rev boarding priority, for example.....(wait for it...) DOH.

But then, we get ahead of ourselves, don't we?

Haven't heard the remedy yet.