US Pilots Labor Discussion 7/28- STAY ON TOPIC AND OBSERVE THE RULES

[767jetz]

OK, Here's another thought and hypothetical.....

What if you returned to the negotiating table, and by some MIRACLE, you came up with a contract which included an acceptable compromise to NIC and DOH? A contract which in addition to addressing that issue to the satisfaction of a MAJORITY of pilots, provided you with improved work rules and significant raises??
Could you not pass that and avoid a DFR suit? Are both sides SO stuck on their line in the sand that 5 years later, after all the chest thumping and rhetoric from both sides, NO ONE can realize it's in EVERYONE's best interest to settle this by compromise?

Art,

I think this idea has been floated before, and would work if (and that's a big IF) both sides wanted to. Several things would be required though. The first of which would be another new union with a fresh start and different constitution and bylaws. Just like there was acrimony between the east and ALPA, so it is with USAPA and the west.

There is one other issue that could be insurmountable. There is a large disparity between the work rules and pay of the east and west. (ie: the west contract is not currently all that bad.) That means any raise significant enough to convince the west to move away from Nicolau to the degree required to get the east onboard, would probably be cost prohibitive for the company. That's where USAPA is in trouble even with the 9th ruling. For them to negotiate a contract with anything resembling DOH, AND not disadvantage the west as they fear, is probably not attainable.

The west has good reason to believe that the law is in their favor, and will let this play out in court. They still have many cards to play before it's over. The first is the company law suit, which may be the end game for all this. If that is not successful, then they wait for USAPA to get a contract out for a vote to see if there is enough money there to make them walk away from Nic. (Not likely) If it passes anyway they get an injunction and another DFR suit which they could very well win. Unfortunately everyone is on a very narrow path with little room left to change course.

Ironically, there was a way out of this mess, but the ongoing war pretty much prevented it. That would have been a merger. The reason is because mergers are all about money. It is the one thing that could have provided the funds necessary to buy peace. As an example, DL&NW predicted their merger would provide $1.8 Billion in ANNUAL synergies. ALPA target half of that, about $900 Million in annual contract improvements and equity. They were successful. Since then DL increased their estimate to over $2 Billion. That's alot of scratch. Similarly, UA&CO are conservatively estimating $2 Billion in annual synergies. ALPA is once again targeting half of that, knowing that after consummation of the merge UA's estimate will also climb.

Perhaps one day AA will get their house in order and decide to look for a merger partner. But IMO that is too far into the future to have any effect on the current mess at USAirways.

 

[cactusboy53]

OK, Here's another thought and hypothetical.....

What if you returned to the negotiating table, and by some MIRACLE, you came up with a contract which included an acceptable compromise to NIC and DOH? A contract which in addition to addressing that issue to the satisfaction of a MAJORITY of pilots, provided you with improved work rules and significant raises??

Could you not pass that and avoid a DFR suit? Are both sides SO stuck on their line in the sand that 5 years later, after all the chest thumping and rhetoric from both sides, NO ONE can realize it's in EVERYONE's best interest to settle this by compromise?

At the end of the day, you're all doing yourselves a disservice in my humble uninformed opinion. You are enriching a company who doesn't deserve such good fortune, and this emboldens them to think that their despicable behavior toward, you, other employees and customers is acceptable.

With ALL DUE RESPECT, my friends, is it IMPOSSIBLE to arrive at a solution which would be SOMEWHAT acceptable for both sides????

I wish you ALL the very best, but perhaps the time has come to fix this once and for all...you folks are supposed to be professionals, but no offense, you'd never know it by reading this thread...

Back to my corner....

Art;
What you have described is what should have happened during the merger committee meetings and perhaps then mediation. USAPA is bound by their CBL's to shoot for DOH. Failing to do so now places them in jeopardy of DFR from the former US Air pilot group.

The former AWA pilots negotiated, mediated and arbitrated in good faith for the conclusion that we refer to as the Nicolau Award. When the parties enter into the agreement, they are bound to accept the final decision of the arbiter (and in this case, two pilot neutrals). Said award was accepted, and delivered to the company by the former collective bargaining unit. Mr. Parker accepted the award, and sent out a letter that stated that it met his conditions / concerns for a merged pilot seniority list. Enter USAPA (one year later, with a nearly completed contract via ALPA).

Now that USAPA is the collective bargaining unit, they have inherited all former tentative agreements, letters of agreement, contracts, and agreements. There is no longer an entity that specifically, legally & officially represents the former AWA pilot group. As such there is no one person or persons that may attempt a negotiation with USAPA and the company regarding a hybrid DOH or semi-Nic.

The company has filed its request with the courts because it has been stated that there can not be a completed contract without clarification of the "seniority issue". In other words, LCC is looking to the courts to tell them what they must / must not do.

In the meantime the AWA pilots must pay 1.95% union dues as a condition of employment. USAPA spent nearly if not over 3 million dollars (of "our" dues monies) in legal expenses last year (Mar. 09-Mar 10). Those legal fees paid for the continued RICO persecution of a group of AWA pilots (case already once dismissed WITH PREJUDICE), and the defense of the Addinton DFR lawsuit. Conversely the AWA pilots are solely responsible for any and all legal defense of RICO lawsuits and DFR allegations.

Unfortunately, the courts will ultimately decide where this will go. It will cost MILLIONS and MILLIONS of dollars in legal defense and offense. It will cost this pilot group collectively tens if not hundreds of MILLIONS of dollars in lost wages, contract improvements and additional time off. This was supposed to be a relatively uncomplicated process. Look at NWA/DAL. DONE. Approximate relative seniority, HUGE wage increases and contract improvements, and are now cross bidding (mo better for commuters).

We are at the proverbial rock & hard place. LCC is seeking the courts direction, USAPA is shooting for DOH, and the former AWA pilot group are trying to hold a defensive line so as to not be bowled over by a larger group (read..Might makes Right??). As Yogi Berra said....It ain't over, 'til it's over.

 

[A320 Driver]

OK, Here's another thought and hypothetical.....

What if you returned to the negotiating table, and by some MIRACLE, you came up with a contract which included an acceptable compromise to NIC and DOH? A contract which in addition to addressing that issue to the satisfaction of a MAJORITY of pilots, provided you with improved work rules and significant raises??
Could you not pass that and avoid a DFR suit? Are both sides SO stuck on their line in the sand that 5 years later, after all the chest thumping and rhetoric from both sides, NO ONE can realize it's in EVERYONE's best interest to settle this by compromise?

At the end of the day, you're all doing yourselves a disservice in my humble uninformed opinion. You are enriching a company who doesn't deserve such good fortune, and this emboldens them to think that their despicable behavior toward, you, other employees and customers is acceptable.

With ALL DUE RESPECT, my friends, is it IMPOSSIBLE to arrive at a solution which would be SOMEWHAT acceptable for both sides????

I wish you ALL the very best, but perhaps the time has come to fix this once and for all...you folks are supposed to be professionals, but no offense, you'd never know it by reading this thread...

Back to my corner....

Art.

Great post and all good thoughts. I agree with you and feel this is a responsible course of action. As you can see from the responses however, getting the West guys to agree to anything short of the NIC and a permanent disparity in wages and work rules for the East group is going to be a tough sell.

I applaud your efforts to find voices of reason within our group.

Good Luck,

Driver B)

 

[USFlyer]

With retirements expected to increase over the coming years (now that the effect of the increased age 65 retirement change will be over), how will this change the position on the East side over time? Better or worse or no material effect?

 

[767jetz]

getting the West guys to agree to anything short of the NIC and a permanent disparity in wages and work rules for the East group is going to be a tough sell.

Driver B)

Serious question... What about the chances of getting the East guys to agree to something short of DOH and no disparity in wages or work rules? In other words some type of slotting (ie: Nic and some adjustments for LOS, then call it something other than Nic), fences for pre-merger (not growth) A330 flying, added protection for attrition from the left seat above and beyond the equal attrition from the West, and pay parity to something slightly higher than current West rates, with West work rules.

The reason I ask is because just as you point out above about the tough sell, from what people post here it sounds like DOH or nothing is the only position of the East. IMO the only way USAPA can make a contract DFR proof is to use Nic as a starting point, adjust it slightly as I mention above, and throw enough money at it to make those entrenched in their current position to decide it's not worth fighting over any more. And since much of the money would go to the East in the form of a much greater percent of pay and work rule improvements, the seniority would have to fall closer to Nic than to DOH to make up the difference.

If USAPA actually put a contract like that out, it might just fly. But from what you read around here the chances of that happening are slim to none without a change of union leadership and goals.

Your thoughts?

 

[aquagreen73s]

Art,

I think this idea has been floated before, and would work if (and that's a big IF) both sides wanted to.

The problem is, there are no longer two sides. That went away with USAPA's single carrier certification. There could conceivably be a settlement agreement, but it would require at a minimum that each individual member of the class to settle-all 1500 West pilots. DFR claims are individual, so all it takes is one to hit the reset button. I'm in no way advocating further litigation, but that's the practical realities all US Airways pilots face. Parker is risk averse and he won't do anything to jeopardize the company. There really isn't a way to solve this matter within the pilot ranks as a consensual pilot solution was made impossible by USAPA's all-or-nothing strategy. The likely prognosis is status quo for at least a few more years.

IMO the only way USAPA can make a contract DFR proof is to use Nic as a starting point, adjust it slightly as I mention above, and throw enough money at it to make those entrenched in their current position to decide it's not worth fighting over any more. And since much of the money would go to the East in the form of a much greater percent of pay and work rule improvements, the seniority would have to fall closer to Nic than to DOH to make up the difference.

If USAPA actually put a contract like that out, it might just fly. But from what you read around here the chances of that happening are slim to none without a change of union leadership and goals.

Your thoughts?

It's now like Russian Roulette. Go with DOH and it's like loading all six chambers in a .357. The company's filing is clear that they won't go along with that and expose themselves to several millions in damages as DFR 2 would probably go the way DFR 1 did on the merits: unanimous jury verdict. The other option is to go with the Nic which would be like playing Russian Roulette with no chambers loaded. Anything else is somewhere in between one and six rounds.

 

[767jetz]

A320 Driver,

Just to clarify one more thing... when I refer to growth A330 flying I mean that flying above what existed at the time of the merger. Not A330 flying that existed once upon a time before the industry wide down sizing.

 

[767jetz]

The problem is, there are no longer two sides. That went away with USAPA's single carrier certification.

This is true. I guess what I was referring to was a USAPA solution that I mentioned in my last post where they present a contract that does not disadvantage the west as they fear. DOH with C&R won't cut it because there are no C&R's that could avoid disadvantaging the west. So since there is no one to negotiate with, as you mention, the "other side" (ie: the west) could decide that what USAPA presents is good enough, and not go for DFR #2.

IMO, beyond the public stance of USAPA and the public talk to appease the east members, privately they know that there are few options that would not end in another DFR suit with a very real probability of losing again. And next time there will not be a ripeness issue to hide behind. Their only strategy would be to move ever so carefully away from the NIC to the point of not triggering the West's fear, and then throw enough money at it to appease everyone. But no one knows what that point is since, as you said, there is no one left to negotiate with. Every step away from the NIC is a legal risk for them at this point. And if LOA93 continues while this plays out for years to come in the courts, it means more and more money coming from their pockets in lost wages and more pilots retiring under bankruptcy era wages.

 

[Crzipilot]

Jets,

You realize your solution of a modified NIC list, with the fences and such, Is essentially the same thing that can be done with a DOH list??? So what's the difference? appease the lawsuit happy addington crowd???

Adjusted for LOS would come ALOT closer to fixing the disparity inside the NIC. I'll betcha the bottom of the West list wouldn't be too happy with that. Especially since MDA was Mainline, and you'd have to add that time in there, along with the fact that it was basically a illegal recall process which ALPA looked the other way at, so then you have alot of adjusting to do on the bottom of the East list.......Heck the way ALPA handled that whole mess, all J4J positions should be credited....if you were involved you would understand (Before any West guys pipe up about Express Furloughed etc etc........don't need your opinion interjected here since you have no clue what all happened)

 

[767jetz]

It's now like Russian Roulette. Go with DOH and it's like loading all six chambers in a .357.

The other option is to go with the Nic which would be like playing Russian Roulette with no chambers loaded.

Anything else is somewhere in between one and six rounds.

Yup. I guess we are saying the same thing. I like your analogy though. B)

 

[cleardirect]

Jets,

You realize your solution of a modified NIC list, with the fences and such, Is essentially the same thing that can be done with a DOH list??? So what's the difference? appease the lawsuit happy addington crowd???

Adjusted for LOS would come ALOT closer to fixing the disparity inside the NIC. I'll betcha the bottom of the West list wouldn't be too happy with that. Especially since MDA was Mainline, and you'd have to add that time in there, along with the fact that it was basically a illegal recall process which ALPA looked the other way at, so then you have alot of adjusting to do on the bottom of the East list.......Heck the way ALPA handled that whole mess, all J4J positions should be credited....if you were involved you would understand (Before any West guys pipe up about Express Furloughed etc etc........don't need your opinion interjected here since you have no clue what all happened)

It has not been proven that MDA was mainline. I believe that the summary judgment is still pending. It has been a month, how much longer?

How much time did the CEL guys have at mainline? Are you going to adjust them off the seniority list? Did those CEL guys ever fly a 737,320 mainline airplane or have a chnace? Were the CEL guys ever going to be able to bid a WB?

 

[aquagreen73s]

From the 4th Circuit moments ago:

In accordance with the decision of this Court, the judgment of the District Court is affirmed.
This judgment shall take effect upon issuance of this Court's mandate in accordance with Fed. R. App. P. 41.
/s/ PATRICIA S. CONNOR, CLERK Case: 08-1858 Document: 78-1 Date Filed: 07/30/2010 Page: 1
Case 3:

 

[nic4us]

From the 4th Circuit moments ago:

In accordance with the decision of this Court, the judgment of the District Court is affirmed.
This judgment shall take effect upon issuance of this Court's mandate in accordance with Fed. R. App. P. 41.
/s/ PATRICIA S. CONNOR, CLERK Case: 08-1858 Document: 78-1 Date Filed: 07/30/2010 Page: 1
Case 3:

Is this the RICO or the MDA suit?

 

[aquagreen73s]

Is this the RICO or the MDA suit?

RICO.

The named defendants and the 100 or so John Doe's on the West are completely safe from USAPA malicious suit. USAPA's suit was reprehensible in every way. It speaks volumes of the character of those who supported this malicious suit on the East.

 

[prechilill]

RICO.

The named defendants and the 100 or so John Doe's on the West are completely safe from USAPA malicious suit. USAPA's suit was reprehensible in every way. It speaks volumes of the character of those who supported this malicious suit on the East.

So true, Aqua. It will be sad when the angry FO's out east lose their LOA93 arbitration... so sad.