US Pilots Labor Discussion 7/28- STAY ON TOPIC AND OBSERVE THE RULES

[luvn737s]

such destructive and self defeating nonsense.

Not to be picky, but doesn't shouldn't USAPA's trademark (tm) be associated with Destructive and Self-defeating Nonsense? They should really put out a DVD to train other unions in their DaSDN techniques. Maybe it would help offset Cleary's $210K paycheck.

Hey Hate. Did you pull down $210K this year? Me either.

 

[nic4us]

Exactly. They moan about wanting a contract, but use the courts to delay it at every opportunity.

If you want the ripeness and your opportunity to sue for DFR and damages, call off your incompetent lawyers and let USAPA do its job.

Lets be truthful about what has transpired.

First, it is the east that has caused all the delay toward a contract, by walking out of negotiations, then electing usapa, then filing the appeal, and now fighting against the company's request for declaratory judgement.

Second, the case is ripe now. Both Wake and Graber agree, and now that the company has filed their request, it is abundantly clear this case is ripe and that usapa is liable for its breach of DFR toward the West pilots.

Third, even if the 9ths mandate stands, and usapa is free to negotiate whatever they want, the same cannot be said for the company. usapa is stuck without a willing partner at the negotiating table. Sure, usapa can again breach its DFR owed the West pilots and make it "unquestionably ripe", but that does not mean that the company is willing to abet them to that end and incur liability with usapa.

So once again it is usapa intentionally causing all the delay toward a contract by fighting the company's filing. The West cannot make the company break its contractual obligations in order to allow usapa to do the same.

So, if usapa wants to commit a failure of its DFR, why not call off your incompetent little lawyer and allow the company to determine that they can negotiate with you in your bad faith effort to re-arrange the seniority list at LCC.

 

[cleardirect]

Really? How about the truth: The reason the CLT Reps “assert” that this is all about politics is because that is exactly what it is. You have a group that salivates over power, thinks they are right about everything and will never acknowledge the wisdom of working together if they are not part of the political make-up. They thrive on Chaos!

you need to take a hard look at what your reality to be if Crimi gets recalled. You can expect the above posse of malcontents along with PHX and possibly some other reps in a another domicile beginning with P to run the show on your behalf!!!! What do you think their common goals are. Yes you guessed it, to dismantle the leadership structure of USAPA

I think these are the essential statements from that entire rant. The first one I have to ask. Who are they talking about. To me this applies to Cleary and the inter circle gang. It is Cleary that is power hunger. It is Cleary that refused to work with PHX because we are not part of his political inside circle. It is Cleary that continues the Chaos.

So what if Crimi gets recalled. CLT will then have an opportunity to replace him. If they want someone like minded to stay on the board then they will elect someone. If they do not like the direction that usapa is headed they can replace him with someone more reasonable and not a strike breaker. This author states that working with PHX to get thing accomplished is a bad thing. (And you guys wonder why usapa lost a DFR suit.)

It is this attitude that is wrong. What do we hear from the east all of the time? That the majority rules. Well if the majority of the BPR decide something than according to you it must be the right thing right. What this says is that if the majority of the BPR does not agree with the radicals then they are trying to dismantle the leadership. No not dismantle just make it work better. Replace Crimi would be a start. Next will be Cleary.

A union can not be built on the vindictive nature of attack 1/3 of your members. A union is not built on letting the radicals run the show than complain when the majority want to go in a different direction.

 

[767jetz]

jetz,

I don't think anyone in the east thinks USAPA is going to end! We have personality issues in the east for sure. However, we share a common bond! Even if Cleary were to leave office today nothing would change. The majority of pilots control this union. If you feel like a change of control at the top of the union is going to change things..........you will be sadly mistaken!

Hate

The person who posted that lengthy rant was the one (obviously a hardline east pilot) who said there was a conspiracy to "dismantle the leadership structure of USAPA." Not me. My comment was that maybe it would be a good thing. Yours is that it won't change a thing. So why not let it happen? Why the long defensive rant about it in the first place? Sounds like the author is afraid of it and doesn't want it to happen. That's all I was pointing out.

 

[cleardirect]

jetz,

I don't think anyone in the east thinks USAPA is going to end! We have personality issues in the east for sure. However, we share a common bond! Even if Cleary were to leave office today nothing would change. The majority of pilots control this union. If you feel like a change of control at the top of the union is going to change things..........you will be sadly mistaken!

Hate

A "common bond" what is that? That every east pilot wants to screw the west?

 

[snapthis]

Exactly. They moan about wanting a contract, but use the courts to delay it at every opportunity.

If you want the ripeness and your opportunity to sue for DFR and damages, call off your incompetent lawyers and let USAPA do its job.

Elect a union who represents the interests of all the pilots of LCC and we will call off the dawgs.

 

[Pi brat]

Second, the case is ripe now.

Third, even if the 9ths mandate stands,

Aren't these conflicting statements? As of today, has a court said the case was ripe or not?

 

[Pi brat]

A "common bond" what is that? That every east pilot wants to screw the west?

That is flat out b.s and does noting to shink the gap.

 

[flyinawa]

A "common bond" what is that? That every east pilot wants to screw the west?

The common bond is, no matter how bad of a job USAPA does, all they have to say is, "maybe we didn't deliver what we promised, but it's the West's fault and if you give up on us then you give the West control...and they will steal everything that you are entitled to". End of story.

 

[nycbusdriver]

I think these are the essential statements from that entire rant. The first one I have to ask. Who are they talking about. To me this applies to Cleary and the inter circle gang. It is Cleary that is power hunger. It is Cleary that refused to work with PHX because we are not part of his political inside circle. It is Cleary that continues the Chaos.

So what if Crimi gets recalled. CLT will then have an opportunity to replace him. If they want someone like minded to stay on the board then they will elect someone. If they do not like the direction that usapa is headed they can replace him with someone more reasonable and not a strike breaker. This author states that working with PHX to get thing accomplished is a bad thing. (And you guys wonder why usapa lost a DFR suit.)

It is this attitude that is wrong. What do we hear from the east all of the time? That the majority rules. Well if the majority of the BPR decide something than according to you it must be the right thing right. What this says is that if the majority of the BPR does not agree with the radicals then they are trying to dismantle the leadership. No not dismantle just make it work better. Replace Crimi would be a start. Next will be Cleary.

A union can not be built on the vindictive nature of attack 1/3 of your members. A union is not built on letting the radicals run the show than complain when the majority want to go in a different direction.

Are you based in CLT? I'm not, so when this nonsense started, I simple delete the emails. Nothing I can do about it, since I won't get to vote. It's the CLT pilots' decision, so why would someone presumably PHX based get his/her knickers in a twist over it?

 

[nic4us]

Aren't these conflicting statements? As of today, has a court said the case was ripe or not?

The statements are not conflicting on the topic of why it is usapa that continues to cause delay.

But in the strictest sense as we stand today, you are correct and the 9th has ruled the Addington case is not ripe. BTW, contrary to usapian mythology, that is all they ruled.

My point was, the 9th Circuit has ruled the case not ripe. If/when the mandate is issued to the district court, usapa still has no one to negotiate with, as the company is unwilling to expose itself to the coming litigation a DOH contract will bring. Yet, it is usapa fighting the company's request. usapa even acknowledged that AOL supports the company's right to file their request. So who is delaying?

The appearent conflict arrises in the recent rule 60b filing from AOL claims the case is ripe, and that the 9ths mandate should be vacated. I supported that part of my post by saying Wake and Bybee thought it ripe initially for similar reasons. Of course this filing relies on the company's filing as evidence that was not available at the time of arguements before the 9th. Hence usapa's opposition to the company's request, and reason for fighting it?, to cause more delay.

The bottom line to my original post was to lay blame where it is deserved. The reason we do not have a joint contract is not of the West making, and no matter how the West continues to defend itself, it never was, nor is it now, responsible for the delay. Either usapa will come to its senses and use the Nic in a contract, or usapa will continue to be the one and only cause for delay.

Has anyone mentioned lately that the Nic is not going away? or that "final and binding" actually means, "final and binding"?

 

[A320 Driver]

Lets be truthful about what has transpired.

Second, the case is ripe now. Both Wake and Graber agree

You've spoken to them? No?

Then, that is quite a statement you are making. I think you should have started that with "IMO", because that is all it is.

Driver B)

 

[Pi brat]

The statements are not conflicting on the topic of why it is usapa that continues to cause delay.

Yeah they are, because as the law stands right now, Addington is not ripe. AOL's motion might change that, but it might not.

IMHO, Mr. Nicolau has caused the delay in a contract. Had the east acccepted the Nic, we may have had a contract by now. Had the west given in to ALPA's strong arm tactics, we might have a contract. Neither side did and we are where we are, both sides willing to pay whatever the price to win. Just about every day I see "Why do you speak of the speck in my eye when you have a log in yours?" on this board and it comes from both sides.

I don't understand some of USAPA's recent filings and they seem to be delaying things, but I see that as more the case with AOL. Everybody, the company, USAPA and AOL seem to be playing the delay game.

Contrary to what most west pilots believe, I had read the 9th's ruling several times and know what it says. I have seen both sides read way too much into it, again IMHO. To me all it said was that it wasn't ripe. Not that NIC was dead and not that Addington is a done deal when we have a contract, as many on both sides believe.

 

[nic4us]

You've spoken to them? No?

Then, that is quite a statement you are making. I think you should have started that with "IMO", because that is all it is.

Driver B)

Thanks for pointing out my mistake.

I meant to say both Wake and Bybee agree that the case is ripe. I had said Graber.

It is not my opinion, it is theirs, discussed at length in Wake's finding of facts and law, and in Bybee's disenting opinion.

Both judges found the case ripe. True statement.

IMO the case was ripe, continues to be ripe, can become "unquestionably ripe", and usapa will continue down some other avenue of delay in their quest for permanent seperate ops. In and of itself another ripe DFR case altogether.

 

[East Hole]

Thanks for pointing out my mistake.

I meant to say both Wake and Bybee agree that the case is ripe. I had said Graber.

It is not my opinion, it is theirs, discussed at length in Wake's finding of facts and law, and in Bybee's disenting opinion.

Both judges found the case ripe. True statement.

IMO the case was ripe, continues to be ripe, can become "unquestionably ripe", and usapa will continue down some other avenue of delay in their quest for permanent seperate ops. In and of itself another ripe DFR case altogether.

Here is a true statement. Nobody is going to throw gear for someone hired 17 years before them. Not for someone that was not around for 2 wars or 9-11. Not for someone that did not make the same sacrifices. It is wrong not right and will not happen period.......