US Pilots Labor Discussion 7/28- STAY ON TOPIC AND OBSERVE THE RULES

[767intl]

The statements are not conflicting on the topic of why it is usapa that continues to cause delay.

But in the strictest sense as we stand today, you are correct and the 9th has ruled the Addington case is not ripe. BTW, contrary to usapian mythology, that is all they ruled.

Maybe it was all they ruled, but wasn't all they said.

My point was, the 9th Circuit has ruled the case not ripe. If/when the mandate is issued to the district court, usapa still has no one to negotiate with, as the company is unwilling to expose itself to the coming litigation a DOH contract will bring. Yet, it is usapa fighting the company's request. usapa even acknowledged that AOL supports the company's right to file their request. So who is delaying?

Glad you recognize that (that the 9th ruled YOU wrong). What Bybee and Wake have to say is irrelevant. They were on the losing side, so to speak. Just like your humble opinion is.

Has anyone mentioned lately that the Nic is not going away? or that "final and binding" actually means, "final and binding"?

Every chance you get. I think we've heard your illogical point enough.

Second, the case is ripe now. Both Wake and Graber agree, and now that the company has filed their request, it is abundantly clear this case is ripe and that usapa is liable for its breach of DFR toward the West pilots.

Ripe? In whose universe? Besides yours. Garber, huh? Looks like you picked up on that slip already. You still lost at the 9th.

Third, usapa is stuck without a willing partner at the negotiating table.

Good. That sounds like a NMB impasse to me. Can we say "self-help?" You guys don't want to go along with self-help? Fine, we'll go it alone. A little CHAOS, maybe? But only after the impasse, 30-day, no presidential emergency oder, etc. By the book, you know.

Sure, usapa can again breach its DFR owed the West pilots and make it "unquestionably ripe", but that does not mean that the company is willing to abet them to that end and incur liability with usapa.

Wrong, again, NIC4. It's not ripe, at least according to the Ninth, until there is a contract in place. Then you got to prove that it's "unfair," and meets DFR bar. BTW, the 9th said it doesn't have to be the NIC to be fair representation. But why are we going over this same old ground over and over again? Why don't you just sit back and wait for this to work its way out on its own? What is your consumed pre-occupation with something you have no control over?

So, if usapa wants to commit a failure of its DFR, why not call off your incompetent little lawyer and allow the company to determine that they can negotiate with you in your bad faith effort to re-arrange the seniority list at LCC.

Our "incompetent little lawyer" (nice personal attack) seemed to have won the big one, in the Ninth. BTW, how's that SCOTUS appeal going?

 

[cleardirect]

[quote name='767intl' date='09 August 2010 - 08:10 PM' timestamp='1281409851' post='755654]

Good. That sounds like a NMB impasse to me. Can we say "self-help?" You guys don't want to go along with self-help? Fine, we'll go it alone. A little CHAOS, maybe? But only after the impasse, 30-day, no presidential emergency oder, etc. By the book, you know.

[/quote]
Nothing but your opinion that it is an impasse. If usapa continued to demand $400.00 an hour for 190 captains. Would the NMB consider that an impasse and release for self help? I doubt it.

If the company demands PBS instead of line bidding would the NMB release the company to self help?

What happens if the NMB determines that final and binding really means final and binding? The NMB decides that negotiating seniority is not an impasse. Then what?

Will usapa even take a strike vote or will you guys except the BPR deciding for you to go on strike?

 

[NYGiantsFan90]

Your not in Section 6 Negotiations, therefore Self-Help is not an option.

 

[luvn737s]

USAPA is engaged in a civil war of it's own choosing. That's why self-help will never be an option.

And Doug Parker is in on this little secret.

 

[nic4us]

Here is a true statement. Nobody is going to throw gear for someone hired 17 years before them.

Might want to edit your post?

 

[nic4us]

Wrong, again, NIC4. It's not ripe, at least according to the Ninth, until there is a contract in place. Then you got to prove that it's "unfair," and meets DFR bar. BTW, the 9th said it doesn't have to be the NIC to be fair representation.

Actually, we will not have to prove that it is "unfair". usapa will have to prove that it is "fair", done in "good faith", and is not "discriminatory". All three of which they failed in the Addington case. My point is that it does not only matter if it is "fair" or not. The reason usapa unilaterally decided to change the arbitrated award is the evidence of their breach of DFR.

BTW, the 9th did not say it does not have to be the Nic to be fair representation. The 9th said in effect, if usapa comes up with something other than the Nic, and the West is willing to go along with it, then usapa would not get sued again.

 

[snapthis]

Here is a true statement. Nobody is going to throw gear for someone hired 17 years before them. Not for someone that was not around for 2 wars or 9-11. Not for someone that did not make the same sacrifices. It is wrong not right and will not happen period.......

Not your decision who you are going to raise the gear for. If the company accepts a seniority list and you have a problem with doing your job then find something else to do for a living.

 

[cleardirect]

Are you based in CLT? I'm not, so when this nonsense started, I simple delete the emails. Nothing I can do about it, since I won't get to vote. It's the CLT pilots' decision, so why would someone presumably PHX based get his/her knickers in a twist over it?

No you and I may not get a vote. But Crimi is still a BPR member, he makes decisions that effect you and me.

I don't get to vote for Nancy Polosi or Harry Reed but they effect my life and I sure will express my opinion.

What credibility does Crimi have to vote for a strike or tell the pilots of CLT and utimately all US Airways pilots to sacrifice and go on strike if he was not willing to follow his unions direction? He did not sacrifice and not take a job at freedom. I think that is the worst part. His excuse was he was trying to poke ALPA in the eye.

I think it was most of you east guys on here complaining that us west pilots will not follow or support usapa. Crimi did not follow and support his union at the time.

Double standard? Or does Crimi get a pass because you agree with his politics?

I just saw an old petition demanding that AAA stick with DOH. Everyone was putting their ALPA number on it. You guys were all supporting ALPA right up to the time you did not get what you wanted. No one at that time was complaining about how bad ALPA was. But now you accept the excuse from Crimi he did to spite ALPA. Your you have accepted that excuse if he ran for LEC in 2004?

Than why do you accept it now?

 

[cleardirect]

Here is a true statement. Nobody is going to throw gear for someone hired 17 years before them. Not for someone that was not around for 2 wars or 9-11. Not for someone that did not make the same sacrifices. It is wrong not right and will not happen period.......

Than I guess you should have made that argument to the guy that made the list. Oh that's right you did. The guy that we agreed to let decide who would swing gear for whom. He decided that it would happen. The company has decided that they accepted a list that that was going to happen.

You can accept that or you can go find another job. At that new job you will be swinging gear for someone and you will not have to worry about having 17 years. You be a new hire and all will be right in your world.

If you have not been paying attention. It is 5 years after the merger, 3 years after the Nicolau award, 2 years after the east tantrum and you still do not have DOH. We are still talking about the Nicolau so it is not dead and it is not going away. The courts have not allowed usapa to take the west rights away.

So what are you going to do to stop what you fear? Continue sacrificing on LOA 93? That will show us.

 

[Piedmont1984]

His excuse was he was trying to poke ALPA in the eye.

I think it was most of you east guys on here complaining that us west pilots will not follow or support usapa. Crimi did not follow and support his union at the time.

Double standard? Or does Crimi get a pass because you agree with his politics?

I think when Crimi used the "poke ALPA in the eye" explanation - he ended up poking himself in the eye. A far more plausable explanation is the one I have heard regarding many who went to Freedom - namely, that they had absolutely no knowledge of the controversy at the time and they received absolutely no communications from ALPA of any kind warning them not to go to Freedom.

So I for one would like to know exactly what Crimi knew and when he knew it. Then I will make my decision and vote accordingly.

 

[Barrister]

Yeah they are, because as the law stands right now, Addington is not ripe. AOL's motion might change that, but it might not.

IMHO, Mr. Nicolau has caused the delay in a contract. Had the east acccepted the Nic, we may have had a contract by now. Had the west given in to ALPA's strong arm tactics, we might have a contract. Neither side did and we are where we are, both sides willing to pay whatever the price to win. Just about every day I see "Why do you speak of the speck in my eye when you have a log in yours?" on this board and it comes from both sides.

I don't understand some of USAPA's recent filings and they seem to be delaying things, but I see that as more the case with AOL. Everybody, the company, USAPA and AOL seem to be playing the delay game.

Contrary to what most west pilots believe, I had read the 9th's ruling several times and know what it says. I have seen both sides read way too much into it, again IMHO. To me all it said was that it wasn't ripe. Not that NIC was dead and not that Addington is a done deal when we have a contract, as many on both sides believe.

You guys kill me......and even you PI brat...... Let me explain it. If you don't object you
could lose auto. and not be able to raise your objection later on. The Court's holding was not ripe...
yes we agree on that...but didn't you read the rest of it. They covered a lot of ground
....dudes this is one Court BELOW the Supremes....you think what they wrote was done
just to pass the time....just for mental exercise. If the NIC was the law of the land they
could have just said so in one sentence. They didn't. They even told you something other
than the NIC might not be that bad. They were trying to send a message to BOTH sides....
Sorry, but I liked the message to the Addington group way better than the one to USAPA.
Bottom line.....get a CBA and then lets talk!!!

NICDOA
NPJB

 

[Barrister]

No, the most pathetic display of whinning was USAPA filing the law suit in the first place.

Men would not have done it, whinny little boys did.

Wasn't one of the dudes the "we hate you guys" fame???????

NICDOA
NPJB

 

[767jetz]

Here is a true statement. Nobody is going to throw gear for someone hired 17 years before them. Not for someone that was not around for 2 wars or 9-11. Not for someone that did not make the same sacrifices. It is wrong not right and will not happen period.......

More emotional chest pounding that has no basis in fact. Merely more opinion stated as fact. The courts or maybe even your union (if the company gets a ruling from the court that they must use the arbitrated list they already accepted and are bound to in the TA) will decide who you will or will not swing gear for, and you will have little say over it. The only way your above statement would be factual is if the "nobody" you speak of have all decided to quit if they don't get what they want.

Iraq 1 & 2, Afghanistan, 9/11, military service, lost pensions, concessions, age, hours of flight time, type ratings, or perceived superior airmanship, have absolutely nothing to do with the Nic award or where your place is on a combined seniority list. They are only self justifications for your personal sense of entitlement.

Here's a fact for you... Furloughed is junior no matter how you explain it. As I've said to others, I can empathize with your situation. It is an injustice that 17 year pilots were furloughed. But that happened to you before AWA came along. Your merger is not about repairing all that you lost in your career. You'd be better off focusing on a way out of your corner, and gaining everything you possibly can from the company to get back what you sacrificed, instead of targeting the west and expecting them to step aside for you.

 

[767jetz]

BTW, the 9th did not say it does not have to be the Nic to be fair representation. The 9th said in effect, if usapa comes up with something other than the Nic, and the West is willing to go along with it, then usapa would not get sued again.

I still can't believe there are those on the east who can't clearly understand this. They still don't see that the 9th only said that if USAPA comes up with something the west doesn't sue over, then there is no harm. That certainly doesn't give a green light to DOH since the measure of whether or not to sue and if the west will win (as they did before) is still the Nic, since Nic was never on trial. I believe they didn't want to address that thorny issue, right? And again, USAPA is able to step away from Nic just as ALPA could, which is to say only with west concurrence.

In the mean time they all continue to suffer under LOA 93 indefinitely. There must be alot of dissension in the ranks at the years this has dragged on with no improvement. My guess is that if the pay restoration thing doesn't bear fruit by the end of the year, USAPA is done for good and something very close to Nic with a decent contract will be in shortly thereafter.

 

[Piedmont1984]

I still can't believe there are those on the east who can't clearly understand this. They still don't see that the 9th only said that if USAPA comes up with something the west doesn't sue over, then there is no harm. That certainly doesn't give a green light to DOH since the measure of whether or not to sue and if the west will win (as they did before) is still the Nic, since Nic was never on trial. I believe they didn't want to address that thorny issue, right? And again, USAPA is able to step away from Nic just as ALPA could, which is to say only with west concurrence.

I am not concerned about another DFR lawsuit. Anyone, all the way down to one, can file a DFR. What I am concerned about is the merits of any such lawsuit.

It is very much within the realm of possibility that the final list will not be the Nic - but it will be fair, equitable and non-discrimminatory, using a wide variety of accepted metrics, past practice and precedent. USAPA was not permitted to argue this in Judge Wake's courtroom. He decided that the Nic was not on trial.

The 9th Circuit - in their discussion, not their ruling - opened the possibility that in the next DFR, the Nic will be permitted to undergo considerably more scrutiny. Or - USAPA's alternative to the Nic will be allowed a full and thorough defense.