US Pilots Labor Discussion 7/28- STAY ON TOPIC AND OBSERVE THE RULES

[ableoneable]

That would be nice but I don't think the FAA would allow it to happen. Not after 911. But I think they should. It would be a great experience for new hires.

Prior to 9/11 new hire flight attendants at AWA were put on the flightdeck jumpseat as part of their training.

 

[Black Swan]

Here we go again. No matter how many times you repeat the mantra, it doesn't make it true.

Your career was already destroyed when AWA came along to your BK#2. Neither the west nor the Nic had anything to do with it. Just ask the 18 year east pilot who was furloughed. It baffles me that you are still trying to convince anyone that his career wasn't already destroyed. The Nic basically left everyone with the seniority necessary to bid what they had the day before the merger. Anything beyond that is combined growth at the new company and fair game to ALL pilots. You can't lay claim to all future growth just because you had "x" flying once upon a time.

You should get used to this concept, just in case the company gets the court to rule that it must be used.

Thanks for the career summary from a UAL guy who probably helped destroy it by crewing for Orenstein. Now he comes and tells you what to do with your career. And he doesn't even work here, SUPPOSEDLY.

 

[Black Swan]

Black Swan said:



Better tell your union that before they spend millions of your dues money fighting it in court.

Apparently you are the one who can't figure out what it means. Even your beloved USAPA came out crying that the company even filed the suit. It's just distancing right? So let them distance themselves.
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Black Swan said:



Why? Do you get to live by different rules than the rest of the world? How narcissistic. You guys waste no time speculating endlessly on matters that have yet to be determined as if it is pre-ordained.

--------------------------------------------

Black Swan said:



I have no idea. Might still be sometime in the future.

I have corrected you about that recently, yet you still do not have the integrity to show proof or retract your accusation. I posed the question about damages to a west poster, looking for a serious answer at the time. I did it exactly ONCE. You seem to like to spread lies around here, hoping that if you say it enough times people will start to believe you. You are fooling no one. Sorry to burst your bubble, but most people know your reputation around these parts.

So I challenge you once again to post ALL the times I asked the question. I know you won't because you can't. And it will prove that you are lying, further reducing your already low credibility.

-------------------------------------------

Black Swan said:


Gee, you're a classy guy. Funny thing is, when people have nothing constructive to say, and a light is shined on their misinformation by others, they resort to attacks and telling others to mind their own business.

I'm sorry it bothers you so much that people outside of your world have an opinion about things that relate to their industry and what you are trying to do to other pilots. I suggest you get over it, because I don't plan on going away just because you want it to be.

Hey Jetzz. The damages trial question still pertains to the Wake trial. You know, the trial that was bogus and was trashed by the 9th. Before it was even over, you asked repeatedly, "When is the damages trial???" Also. The misinformation you spread is rampant. The latest-- When you stated the company ACCEPTED the Nic list. Funny, the letter the company put in OUR crew room, did not state any thing like that whatsoever.In fact the purpose of the letter was stating they did not know which list to take, and wanted clarification from the courts. Call your sources before you come here, again, and make things up.

 

[Black Swan]

Here we go again. No matter how many times you repeat the mantra, it doesn't make it true.

Your career was already destroyed when AWA came along to your BK#2. Neither the west nor the Nic had anything to do with it. Just ask the 18 year east pilot who was furloughed. It baffles me that you are still trying to convince anyone that his career wasn't already destroyed. The Nic basically left everyone with the seniority necessary to bid what they had the day before the merger. Anything beyond that is combined growth at the new company and fair game to ALL pilots. You can't lay claim to all future growth just because you had "x" flying once upon a time.

You should get used to this concept, just in case the company gets the court to rule that it must be used.

Oh yes, and that Orenstein career and the UAL one is a smoking deal too!

 

[Black Swan]

Here we go again. No matter how many times you repeat the mantra, it doesn't make it true.

Your career was already destroyed when AWA came along to your BK#2. Neither the west nor the Nic had anything to do with it. Just ask the 18 year east pilot who was furloughed. It baffles me that you are still trying to convince anyone that his career wasn't already destroyed. The Nic basically left everyone with the seniority necessary to bid what they had the day before the merger. Anything beyond that is combined growth at the new company and fair game to ALL pilots. You can't lay claim to all future growth just because you had "x" flying once upon a time.

You should get used to this concept, just in case the company gets the court to rule that it must be used.

Jetzz. Do the career earnings comparing a 83 U hire to a AWA 83 hire over time. You cannot even begin to compare it. You like to pick one little point in time, and make all comparisons to destroy someones career at will for your own reasons. You must be an astute investor if you pick your funds the same way!

 

[Richard]

Folks,

Stop making comments aimed at or about other specific posters. If you have an issue with an individual poster take it to PM, do NOT post it here.
Discuss the ISSUES not the POSTERS in this forum.......

More posts have been deleted.....

As a reminder, NOTHING ANY of you says here will have any effect on the eventual outcome of the dispute........

 

[cleardirect]

Hey Jetzz. The damages trial question still pertains to the Wake trial. You know, the trial that was bogus and was trashed by the 9th. Before it was even over, you asked repeatedly, "When is the damages trial???" Also. The misinformation you spread is rampant. The latest-- When you stated the company ACCEPTED the Nic list. Funny, the letter the company put in OUR crew room, did not state any thing like that whatsoever.In fact the purpose of the letter was stating they did not know which list to take, and wanted clarification from the courts. Call your sources before you come here, again, and make things up.

I have a letter signed by Parker accepting the Nicolau list. The transcripts say that the company accepted the Nicolau list. The company filing this week says in three different places that they accepted the Nicolau list. All you can point to is a letter designed to keep the east from breaking down as proof just because that letter does not say the accepted it. Read the legal documents. This is what the company is telling the court. This is what they are going to have to prove to the court.

A little note you do see where the company continually says that it was the east and west PILOTS involved with the transition and arbitration. I guess they don’t believe Seham either that it was just ALPA so it does not count. If they believed that it does not count they would not be in court asking this question.

What happened to the theory that the company HAS to accept whatever usapa puts in front of them for seniority? What happened to the company does not care who flies what seat? It sure looks like they care enough to spend a bunch of time and money not just accepting USAPA’s proposal.

P.S. Not once did the company call the Nicolau a “proposal” they called it the list. But what they did call a proposal was USAPA’s DOH seniority proposal.

ALPA’s constitution provided that, when two ALPA-represented pilot
groups were to be combined as part of an airline merger, the pilot seniority lists would be
integrated on a “fair and equitable” basis in a “final and binding” arbitration between the
two pilot groups. In accordance with the ALPA constitution, and consistent with the
requirements of a September 23, 2005 agreement negotiated between ALPA, the East
Pilots, the West Pilots, and pre-merger US Airways, Inc. and America West Airlines, Inc.
(the “Transition Agreement”), the East Pilots and West Pilots, through separate counsel,
participated in such an arbitration before neutral arbitrator George Nicolau. Arbitrator
Nicolau rendered his decision in May 2007 (the “Nicolau Award”). ALPA presented the
integrated seniority list mandated by the Nicolau Award to US Airways in late 2007, and,
as required by the Transition Agreement, US Airways accepted that integrated seniority
list on December 20, 2007.

This violation is evident because USAPA is aware of the
following facts: the seniority arbitration before Arbitrator Nicolau was conducted
between the East Pilots and West Pilots, represented by their own counsel, as a “final and
binding” arbitration under the ALPA constitution; the Transition Agreement signed by the
East Pilots, the West Pilots, ALPA, and pre-merger US Airways, Inc. and America West
Airlines, Inc. required ALPA to present and US Airways to accept the Nicolau Award;
such tendering and acceptance of the Nicolau Award has occurred in accordance with the
terms of the Transition Agreement; and the West Pilots, through counsel, continue to
assert that they are not being fairly represented by USAPA and, as set forth in
Paragraph 33, have advised that they will initiate litigation once again if agreement is
reached between USAPA and US Airways on an integrated seniority list that does not
incorporate the Nicolau Award.

But the undisputed facts in this case show otherwise. For more than three years,
US Airways has waited for the two pilot groups to resolve their seniority dispute. And,
during that time, US Airways has remained neutral, has accepted the Nicolau list when
tendered by ALPA, has not accepted or encouraged USAPA’s contrary “date-of-hire”
seniority demands, and has not shown any animosity whatsoever to the West Pilots or the
East Pilots.

Pretty clear. The company has accepted the Nicolau list, the company has NOT accepted DOH. Would you like to correct your statement? Maybe admit that you were wrong and Jettz was right.

 

[GuntherA320]

Part of the July 27th AOL update:
Finally, we would like to finish this update by unveiling our new tie tack. Click here to
see a picture. This tie tack is one inch in diameter and it is a close reproduction of the
design used on Spartan shields at the Battle of Thermopylae. This tie tack will be
available starting next week for those who contribute $150. Please note that the tie tack is
separate from badge contributions. We decided on a $150 contribution level because that
amount is what all pilots will be receiving in their next paycheck thanks to the Triple
Crown. Likewise, this shield represents an “above and beyond” contribution to our legal
defense. Unlike the badge contributions where we take Paypal, we will only accept cash,
checks or money orders that are specifically earmarked for the shield.

Did anyone ever tell the west that The Spartan "300" were wiped out by the Persians at the battle of Thermopylae in less than 3 days? That they were betrayed by another Greek, The Persians simply bypassed Thermopylae and slaughtered them on the other side of the pass. That the Persians went on to burn and sack Athens. That the Persians only left Greece after their supporting naval fleet was damaged by storms and a naval defeat by the Athenians (One of Sparta's enemies) at the battle of Salamis?

I suggest reading, Sparta: The Fall of the Empire. One of the interesting passages reads, "Young Spartan men undergoing training were isolated from the rest of society; it is perhaps not surprising that homosexual relations between boys and young men were regarded as standard. Indeed it was a mark of shame for a boy not to be courted by an older youth. The Spartans believed that homosexual relations between young men encouraged unit solidarity and battlefield valor, reasoning that a lover would surely not shame himself before his beloved by flinching back from the line." Not that there is anything wrong with that.

 

[nic4us]

"When is the damages trial???"

the company ACCEPTED the Nic list. Funny, the letter the company put in OUR crew room, did not state any thing like that whatsoever.In fact the purpose of the letter was stating they did not know which list to take, and wanted clarification from the courts. Call your sources before you come here, again, and make things up.

The damages trial would take place following ratification of a non-Nic contract.

The company accepted the Nic in December of 2007.

The letter from vp Johnson clearly states that the 9th's opinion "expressly did not rule on the merits of the seniority dispute", and "Indeed, the ninth circuit opinion clearly allowed for the possibility of a future valid legal claim against a seniority list agreement that did not include the Nicolau Award".

usapa left all that out of their updates I am sure. But as I have said many times, every lawyer that has looked at this other than Seham says the Nic is "final and binding". The flaws in Seham's plan are many, but the underlying biggest flaw is that under the RLA, you have to negotiate in "good faith". Using majority status to promote the majority at a minority's expense is hardly in "good faith".

 

[Hate2fly]

Jetzz. Do the career earnings comparing a 83 U hire to a AWA 83 hire over time. You cannot even begin to compare it. You like to pick one little point in time, and make all comparisons to destroy someones career at will for your own reasons. You must be an astute investor if you pick your funds the same way!

Black Swan,

I wonder if Jetzz and his buddies on the west want to talk about scope! We talked about this before and some of the genuises on this board need a refresher course. The east has a change of control provision that gives the east unbelievable leverage. The change of control issue was on Dougies mind a few months ago. Remember the little rant from Doug at the end of the crew news session? We in the east are driving the train to the final destination. I wonder if there would be anything that would get us to change that provision?

Things to look forward to in the east........

LOA 93 Pay Restoration

PBGC law suit

Retirements

Hate

 

[Black Swan]

I have a letter signed by Parker accepting the Nicolau list. The transcripts say that the company accepted the Nicolau list. The company filing this week says in three different places that they accepted the Nicolau list. All you can point to is a letter designed to keep the east from breaking down as proof just because that letter does not say the accepted it. Read the legal documents. This is what the company is telling the court. This is what they are going to have to prove to the court.

A little note you do see where the company continually says that it was the east and west PILOTS involved with the transition and arbitration. I guess they don’t believe Seham either that it was just ALPA so it does not count. If they believed that it does not count they would not be in court asking this question.

What happened to the theory that the company HAS to accept whatever usapa puts in front of them for seniority? What happened to the company does not care who flies what seat? It sure looks like they care enough to spend a bunch of time and money not just accepting USAPA’s proposal.

P.S. Not once did the company call the Nicolau a “proposal” they called it the list. But what they did call a proposal was USAPA’s DOH seniority proposal.









Pretty clear. The company has accepted the Nicolau list, the company has NOT accepted DOH. Would you like to correct your statement? Maybe admit that you were wrong and Jettz was right.

Company accepted Nicolau list. Just like you accept the FedEx package at the front door. Does not mean anything other than the fact they acknowledged they took the list into possession. All legally required.And, WHO was the bargaining agent when the Nic was handed to Parker? Thats right -ALPA. The FORMER BARGAINING AGENT. FORMER. Implemented, now we are talking what is really happening. They understood the fact we have elected a new bargaining agent. The Nic now means NOTHING, as elucidated by the 9th. If they could have implemented the Nic, they would. They are precluded by doing it, just like Great Britain or any other country now cannot do any business with the Confederate States of America.Gone, POOF! This is why they wrote the letter. Get it now? Obviously not. They now have to deal with USAPA. The company is asking a court to take a position, and make it finally clear to the parties involved that this will make it clear to everybody. If it were the Nic, and it was obvious, they would have taken it and implemented it. It is not the Nic, it will be whatever it is USAPA and the company agree to. This is getting better and better for USAPA by the day. Waiting for Casher next.

 

[Black Swan]

Black Swan,

I wonder if Jetzz and his buddies on the west want to talk about scope! We talked about this before and some of the genuises on this board need a refresher course. The east has a change of control provision that gives the east unbelievable leverage. The change of control issue was on Dougies mind a few months ago. Remember the little rant from Doug at the end of the crew news session? We in the east are driving the train to the final destination. I wonder if there would be anything that would get us to change that provision?

Things to look forward to in the east........

LOA 93 Pay Restoration

PBGC law suit

Retirements

Hate

The change of control is the little bug in the back of Parkers' mind. It is still there. Of all the bad stuff in LOA 93, this is the one little nugget that will pay off in spades.

 

[Black Swan]

Part of the July 27th AOL update:
Finally, we would like to finish this update by unveiling our new tie tack. Click here to
see a picture. This tie tack is one inch in diameter and it is a close reproduction of the
design used on Spartan shields at the Battle of Thermopylae. This tie tack will be
available starting next week for those who contribute $150. Please note that the tie tack is
separate from badge contributions. We decided on a $150 contribution level because that
amount is what all pilots will be receiving in their next paycheck thanks to the Triple
Crown. Likewise, this shield represents an “above and beyond” contribution to our legal
defense. Unlike the badge contributions where we take Paypal, we will only accept cash,
checks or money orders that are specifically earmarked for the shield.

Did anyone ever tell the west that The Spartan "300" were wiped out by the Persians at the battle of Thermopylae in less than 3 days? That they were betrayed by another Greek, The Persians simply bypassed Thermopylae and slaughtered them on the other side of the pass. That the Persians went on to burn and sack Athens. That the Persians only left Greece after their supporting naval fleet was damaged by storms and a naval defeat by the Athenians (One of Sparta's enemies) at the battle of Salamis?

I suggest reading, Sparta: The Fall of the Empire. One of the interesting passages reads, "Young Spartan men undergoing training were isolated from the rest of society; it is perhaps not surprising that homosexual relations between boys and young men were regarded as standard. Indeed it was a mark of shame for a boy not to be courted by an older youth. The Spartans believed that homosexual relations between young men encouraged unit solidarity and battlefield valor, reasoning that a lover would surely not shame himself before his beloved by flinching back from the line." Not that there is anything wrong with that.

Maybe they dreamed something other that what they are willing to admit. I say it is not Thermopylae. It is THERMALPILE. As in pile of something giving off heat. Need I say more? Maybe this would be the next badge backer.

 

[cleardirect]

Black Swan,

I wonder if Jetzz and his buddies on the west want to talk about scope! We talked about this before and some of the genuises on this board need a refresher course. The east has a change of control provision that gives the east unbelievable leverage. The change of control issue was on Dougies mind a few months ago. Remember the little rant from Doug at the end of the crew news session? We in the east are driving the train to the final destination. I wonder if there would be anything that would get us to change that provision?

Things to look forward to in the east........

LOA 93 Pay Restoration

PBGC law suit

Retirements

Hate

Remember what Parker said about CoC? Either there will be a merger and no CoC or there will be no merger. You guys are never going to see CoC. But than I thought all of you wanted this broken up and the the east would merge with AA and all would be well with the world. Can't happen with CoC. So all the provision is doing is keeping you from keeping anything better than what you have now.

You guys keep looking for it.

LOA 93. What is your plan B?

PBGC. Might want to read the updates.

Rumors abound among the pilot group concerning "deals, awards and the reinstatement of our Defined Benefit Plan." Please don't get caught up in these discussions. The Plan is gone, and while the PBGC may be required to adjust our monthly payments or grant some lump sum, our old Defined Benefit Plan is gone.

Any idea when this gusher is going to pay off? Any idea how much "some" is?

Are retirements from the right seat narrow body worth anything?

Hate. I sure see a lot of that coming from the east. I sure see a lot of it going to be aimed at the usapa leadership when all those hopes and dreams collapse.

 

[Hate2fly]

Remember what Parker said about CoC? Either there will be a merger and no CoC or there will be no merger. You guys are never going to see CoC. But than I thought all of you wanted this broken up and the the east would merge with AA and all would be well with the world. Can't happen with CoC. So all the provision is doing is keeping you from keeping anything better than what you have now.

You guys keep looking for it.

LOA 93. What is your plan B?

PBGC. Might want to read the updates.
Any idea when this gusher is going to pay off? Any idea how much "some" is?

Are retirements from the right seat narrow body worth anything?

Hate. I sure see a lot of that coming from the east. I sure see a lot of it going to be aimed at the usapa leadership when all those hopes and dreams collapse.

Clear,

Best thing about you westies and Team Tempe is you don't know when to just keep quiet! Doug and Scott have been a wealth of information for the last 5 years. This should be fun if we get them on the stand! Keep the donations coming.

Hate