US Pilots Labor Discussion 7/28- STAY ON TOPIC AND OBSERVE THE RULES

[cleardirect]

They are not afraid of anything, although you love to stir the pot against USAPA and bait USAPA pilots from your ALPA perch. They already plowed this legal ground over and over with Addington and the 9th and the Supreme Court. And everyone that gets it, knows how it is going down. It is INTERNAL UNION MATTERS, regardless what you have said about it, and the rest of the gang.So of course they objected. I actually back the company on this, because it will finally shut down the twisting and constant resurrection of Nicolau. Everybody gets the Nic is dead, yet the West and Co. dig it up over and over. The company is well aware of the tantrum from the West that is looming on the horizon. They know how sue happy these guys and gals are. They are doing their homework, and I actually don't blame them. It is going to be a reaction like when you take the X Box away from the 13 yr. olds. USAPA is objecting because they feel the 9th made it unbelievably clear, and then it gets twisted by west legal and USAPA baiters into something it isn't. I can't wait until this is cleared up. Problem is, guys like you will try and spin it again. This time, the company is going to deal with the elected bargaining agent, and we all get who that is!

I know you guys keep saying it is an internal union matter. Internal to what? There is no west/east anymore more where is the problem? The east has said it will be DOH. Who is usapa arguing with internally?

So you must mean that it is now a matter between the company and the union. Well that takes it from internal to external since you are involving an outside entity.

If everybody gets it, why is everyone but usapa still fighting this? Do you think that the company lawyers somehow are less smart that Seham? That the AOL lawyers can not read rulings? Is there a possibility that Seham is the one not understanding that the Nicolau is not dead?

I appreciate all of the credit that you give the west. But there is not a west tantrum looming on the horizon. Do you really think the company is afraid of us? That the company is or has done anything to appease the west. No the only thing the company is afraid of from the west is another hybrid DFR law suit that names the company.

Ask yourself why would the company be afraid of a little law suit from us? Because they actually read and understood what the 9th said. That if the company agrees to a seniority list that is not the Nicolau they will be liable and it will cost them a bunch of money. If they did not worry about that possibility they would not be in court asking for immunity.

Yes the company is going to deal with the bargaining agent. I think rather harshly very soon. We can already see the same Seham tactics starting in court. The company has a lot more resources to deal with Seham. Usapa is not going to be able to outspend the company on this one.

So what happens if the court comes back and says the Nicolau is the list? What do you guys do then? Still not believe yet another court?

What if the court dismisses this case and the company says they still can not use anything but the Nicolau?

What if the court finds this is a matter between the company and the union and it needs to go to grievance? Would that be the ultimate in irony the company and usapa going to binding arbitration to find out if binding arbitration really means binding. Want to take a guess how an arbitrator would rule about arbitration?

I have said it before. We you look around and you are the only one holding a position and the rest of the world is looking at it another way. It might be time to look at your position. The rest of the world has looked at this and you guys are the only ones that think the Nicolau is dead.

Not everyone "gets it" the way you do. The only thing the 9 made unbelievably clear was that it was not ripe yet.

BTW is that injunction still in place? Has Wake dismissed this case yet? Maybe not everyone "gets it" the way you think.

 

[Black Swan]

Not sure about that. But this lawsuit is not against the union. It is a suit for explanatory purposes. If the union feels the need to object, and wants to spend their time and money doing so, I think they are on the hook for the cost no matter what.

This is the one thing I can not rectify in my mind though. I agree with most here that the motives of the company are as they say. (At least for now.) So if this is just a way for them to get a free pass from further litigation, why the "hissy fit" from the union and why spend the time and money. If USAPA sees fit to spend time and resources fighting the company, they must be afraid of the possible outcome.

Oh, ok. Who was telling you this all along. Turn on Wings Jetzzz. Look at the latest video. Parker says it all. All they wanted was a clarification like was said. They know when they have to deal with USAPA, they need the fallback position to prevent the West from suing.

 

[nic4us]

Thanks BS,

They don't get it. Yes the 9th only HELD not ripe....
but their reasoning (dicta) was a slap down of epic proportion....
(at least to us and every other court hearing this going forward. )
There has to be a contract...before there is a potential DFR. DOH is in the charter
who ya gonna call?? Wake...don't think so. Been there done that!!
The risk is all on the West side. Get 500 westies voting yes and DFR is out the window.
Parker just wants to run his company (and delay) when you Westies file your little injunction.
Picture this....DOH with CRs....another trial....another 3-5 years....then
500-1000 upgrades out East....matter still not settled. Out F/Os move
up narrow-body to widebody pay raises. You think the pressure is on now...
just wait until attrition kicks in and THE WEST AIN'T MOVING...EVEN A LITTLE BIT.

NICDOA
NPJB

"Who ya gonna call??", how about I call the company's lawyer.

In his recent letter informing the pilots of the company's intent in filing the recent request for declaratory judgement Mr. Johnson says,"Indeed, the 9th Circuit clearly allowed for the possibility of a future valid claim against a seniority list agreement that did not include the Nicolau Award".

Yeah, lets see here, I do not "get it", Freund did not "get it", Harper did not "get it", Prater did not "get it", Wake did not "get it", the jury did not "get it", Bybee did not "get it", Siegel did not "get it", and now the company and Mr. Johnson do not "get it".

It is simple really, pass a contract that does not have the Nic, get sued, waste money, lose "unquestionably ripe DFR". But here is the new twist, the company ain't playing along unless they are told beforehand that they are not going down with usapa. The company will give you a DOH contract, as long as they are not liable for "it".

 

[nic4us]

They know when they have to deal with USAPA, they need the fallback position to prevent the West from suing.

They do not need to "prevent" the West from suing, they know the West will sue.

What the company wants is to "prevent" the West from suing them.

Maybe they do not like their odds being hitched to an organization that has already been found liable for a breach of DFR once, if they are complicit in making those charges "unquestionably ripe".

 

[informed]

The charges were so whacked that it never even got to trial. So no it was not RICO. Do you see anywhere in that ruling where they addressed ANY of the BS stuff Cleary and the rest have been saying? The fourth saw it for what it was. Web posts and phone calls are not illegal. Stating your opinion is not illegal except in usapa world. Most dictators feel the same way.

Did the ninth circuit say usapa did not violate DFR or did they say it was not ripe yet?

The web posts and phone calls were illegal, the court only stated that it does not fall under the RICO.

The Ninth Circuit Court of Appeals reversed the Circuit Court jury finding of a DFR violation. hence they said in laymen s terms for you, there was no DFR violation.

 

[luvthe9]

They do not need to "prevent" the West from suing, they know the West will sue.

What the company wants is to "prevent" the West from suing them.

Maybe they do not like their odds being hitched to an organization that has already been found liable for a breach of DFR once, if they are complicit in making those charges "unquestionably ripe".

Using the Wake Courtroom as a platform to hold the view "an organization that has already been found liable...." is to build a home of termite laden wood. It has no foundation. It is Confederate Money, fools gold. It holds not a bit of worth or value. What is to prevent the west from suing? Nothing. That is proven fact. What is to prevent the West from winning? That is the question. There is yet to be one legal triumph other than to fatten the pockets of Jacobs.

 

[luvthe9]

As far as Wake dismissing it? A mere formality. One of these slow days he will slink in and do what he has been told to do. It has got to be pretty embarrassing to be backed down by the 9th. No wonder he was losing sleep. The trial had become a hobby for him.

 

[luvthe9]

Loved the Crew News! Notice how Parker says he can't pay his pilots industry standard. Going to be very interesting if Casher delivers. "If you owe them, you're going to pay them...."

 

[luvthe9]

I know you guys keep saying it is an internal union matter. Internal to what? There is no west/east anymore more where is the problem? The east has said it will be DOH. Who is usapa arguing with internally?

So you must mean that it is now a matter between the company and the union. Well that takes it from internal to external since you are involving an outside entity.

If everybody gets it, why is everyone but usapa still fighting this? Do you think that the company lawyers somehow are less smart that Seham? That the AOL lawyers can not read rulings? Is there a possibility that Seham is the one not understanding that the Nicolau is not dead?

I appreciate all of the credit that you give the west. But there is not a west tantrum looming on the horizon. Do you really think the company is afraid of us? That the company is or has done anything to appease the west. No the only thing the company is afraid of from the west is another hybrid DFR law suit that names the company.

Ask yourself why would the company be afraid of a little law suit from us? Because they actually read and understood what the 9th said. That if the company agrees to a seniority list that is not the Nicolau they will be liable and it will cost them a bunch of money. If they did not worry about that possibility they would not be in court asking for immunity.

Yes the company is going to deal with the bargaining agent. I think rather harshly very soon. We can already see the same Seham tactics starting in court. The company has a lot more resources to deal with Seham. Usapa is not going to be able to outspend the company on this one.

So what happens if the court comes back and says the Nicolau is the list? What do you guys do then? Still not believe yet another court?

What if the court dismisses this case and the company says they still can not use anything but the Nicolau?

What if the court finds this is a matter between the company and the union and it needs to go to grievance? Would that be the ultimate in irony the company and usapa going to binding arbitration to find out if binding arbitration really means binding. Want to take a guess how an arbitrator would rule about arbitration?

I have said it before. We you look around and you are the only one holding a position and the rest of the world is looking at it another way. It might be time to look at your position. The rest of the world has looked at this and you guys are the only ones that think the Nicolau is dead.

Not everyone "gets it" the way you do. The only thing the 9 made unbelievably clear was that it was not ripe yet.

BTW is that injunction still in place? Has Wake dismissed this case yet? Maybe not everyone "gets it" the way you think.

This is the funniest rant yet! The craziest part is where a court is asked for a clarification of a Federal Ruling from the 9th Court of Appeals of another "Federal " Judge Wake, and it magically gets turned into a binding arbitration!!! How does that magic happen????Clear, you really crack me up!!!!!

 

[fr8tmastr]

Of course they do not, unfortunately they want something they did not have prior to the merger and in order to get it they have to disadvantage the West pilot group to secure what they want.

Translation, they have to steal West jobs to get what they want.

Here is a little update for you 9. It is not Your company anymore. They are not your bases anymore. They are not your airplanes anymore. It is not your flying anymore. It is not your attrition anymore.

It is all community property, shared amongst the new combined pilot group. Combined via the contractually mandated, final and binding, Nicolau Award.

Anything less and you are stealing from the West.

Perfect post: this post sums up exactly what this issue is really about.

What was yours is now ours, therefor, East flying is now our flying... Ergo if you don't give up your 330 and captain positions to the West, you are stealing from us.

 

[nic4us]

What is to prevent the west from suing? Nothing. That is proven fact. What is to prevent the West from winning? That is the question. There is yet to be one legal triumph other than to fatten the pockets of Jacobs.

"What is to prevent the West from winning?", that is easy. A contract that has the Nic in section 22.

No legal wins on the West? Hardly, We are 3-0-1, while usapa has a miserable 1-3-0 record.

 

[Black Swan]

This is the funniest rant yet! The craziest part is where a court is asked for a clarification of a Federal Ruling from the 9th Court of Appeals of another "Federal " Judge Wake, and it magically gets turned into a binding arbitration!!! How does that magic happen????Clear, you really crack me up!!!!!

Loved the part where you look around and you are the only one holding that position! Well, when you obviously have no background to even begin understanding this matter, you are going to be the only one who holds the position. No wonder Parker has to do this. He has no choice. The 9th says the Nic is not required, you know, the Federal guys, and the west line pilot holds another opinion. And they wonder why we stand "Alone" Not such a lonely place when a Federal Court upholds your position versus a bunch of line pilots. I agree, the part where a Federal Court of Appeals ruling involving a CIVIL lawsuit, not, a contractual dispute and grievance process magically reverts back into the company arena is the classic!

 

[luvthe9]

"
No legal wins on the West? Hardly, We are 3-0-1, while usapa has a miserable 1-3-0 record.

Maybe, at least we win the big ones!!!

 

[cleardirect]

As far as Wake dismissing it? A mere formality. One of these slow days he will slink in and do what he has been told to do. It has got to be pretty embarrassing to be backed down by the 9th. No wonder he was losing sleep. The trial had become a hobby for him.

Do you have any idea what the judge was losing sleep over?

He was losing sleep over the fact that he had let to much about the Nicolau into the trial. You guys really need to learn to put things into context and not make things up.

THE COURT: Counsel, come to sidebar.
MR. BRENGLE: Surely.
(The following discussion was had at sidebar out of
the hearing of the jury
MR. BRENGLE: I have a better analogy that I didn't
want to give
THE COURT: I wanted to talk to all of you for a
minute because I've had a bad weekend thinking that I've been
too loose in this trial, letting too much stuff in. Now, the
majority of that was for them, some of it for you. So if I've
erred I want to be equal in my error.
I've reminded the jury a number of times that they're
getting this information for background, the nature of the
disputes and the conflicts, but it's sure sounding like trying
the case on the merits of the arbitration award. I can remind
them from time to time --
MR. BRENGLE: Yes, sir.
THE COURT: -- but --
MR. BRENGLE: We're basically showing that these
efforts by ALPA were authorized, they showed that if the pilots
did wish to make an agreement around Nicolau they could. And
that seems to have been -- this goes to the final and binding
issue. They can treat it as final and binding but they always
have the option on their own to --
THE COURT: I'll read the documents, Mr. Brengle.
MR. BRENGLE: But it is, Your Honor. That's exactly
how they do read and that's the testimony and no one has seemed
to say otherwise.
THE COURT: Let me tell you -- and I -- gees. I don't
want to go off into too much time right now but it's always
possible I've gotten something wrong but I've labored through
these documents, and the documents appear to me to be
absolutely crystal clear that the vote, whether it's the East
MEC and the West MEC or all the pilots together in the new
union, is a vote they have to -- they get to take on the final
CBA.
MR. BRENGLE: Correct.
THE COURT: And the final CBA is a mixed bag of a lot
of things.
MR. BRENGLE: That's right.
THE COURT: And it seems to me that it is entirely
speculative to say that when presented with a mixed bag, as
opposed to the seniority list, people are going to be happy,
unhappy, vote yes, vote no, and I am troubled about this
testimony that says --
MR. BRENGLE: Right.
THE COURT: -- were people happy, were they unhappy.
The answer is, viewed in isolation, which is
irrelevant, East Pilots were happy or unhappy with certain
things on the seniority list and the same is true as the West
Pilots. But union democracy is not about that. It's about
voting on the entire CBA.
MR. BRENGLE: Yes, sir, that's right.
THE COURT: And therefore, I am -- I've lost sleep
over the weekend and as the trial has progressed as to whether
my limitations and my instructions are effective.
So the question you've put is, were they happy?
Well --
MR. BRENGLE: No. Did they think it was fair.
Here's -- here's what I would have said.
In the Book of Mark, when Jesus was asked are you God,
if he had said no, there would be no Christianity. It would
all be done. But he said yes. That doesn't prove he's God but
that starts you along the path.
That's all that question is designed to do. If he
says no, then the whole Wye River thing is bad news for the
East Pilots.
So it's a foundational question. First, they've got
to think it was fair. Whether or not the West guys did later
doesn't matter. Because, as the Court has said, even though
it's modifiable by the parties, they don't have to do it. I'm
actually going to bring that out through Mr. Stephan that the
West and the East Pilots had the same rights with respect to
this.
THE COURT: Well, it seems to me -- again, it seems to
me clear beyond dispute from the documents that the documents
establish something that was final and binding and not subject
to ratification or rejection.

 

[nic4us]

Perfect post: this post sums up exactly what this issue is really about.

What was yours is now ours, therefor, East flying is now our flying... Ergo if you don't give up your 330 and captain positions to the West, you are stealing from us.

Glad you liked it, but I am not going to let you put words in my mouth.

I said everything is community property that has to be shared. How does sharing equate to " give up your 330 and captain positions". It does not . The Nic gives you guys the top of the list. The Nic still has the very greater majority of the top 1000 pilots as east pilots. In the Nic the top 2000 pilots 1450 east.

Further, the 330 fleet has almost doubled, something you would not have had absent the merger.

But with DOH, even with the east's attrition, it would take close to 10 years until I had the seniority to hold the captain seat I have been sitting in for over the last 10 years. That is downright seniority theft.