US Pilots Labor Discussion 7/28- STAY ON TOPIC AND OBSERVE THE RULES

[hp_fa]

Are there any rules for companies filing lawsuits against it's labor unions? It would seem to me that a company with deep pockets could eventually bankrupt a union just by filing frivolous lawsuits against said union. Will the company be on the hook at all for any of the attorneys fees?

If that wasn't a rhetorical question the answers are:

1. Yes
2. Define frivolous for me. One person's frivolous is perhaps an important legal question or right for another person. There are standing rules regarding whether a case is frivolous. The judge decides but I guarantee this action is not frivolous.
3. Extremely unlikely, by which I mean far less that 0.001%

 

[767jetz]

Are there any rules for companies filing lawsuits against it's labor unions? It would seem to me that a company with deep pockets could eventually bankrupt a union just by filing frivolous lawsuits against said union. Will the company be on the hook at all for any of the attorneys fees?

Not sure about that. But this lawsuit is not against the union. It is a suit for explanatory purposes. If the union feels the need to object, and wants to spend their time and money doing so, I think they are on the hook for the cost no matter what.

This is the one thing I can not rectify in my mind though. I agree with most here that the motives of the company are as they say. (At least for now.) So if this is just a way for them to get a free pass from further litigation, why the "hissy fit" from the union and why spend the time and money. If USAPA sees fit to spend time and resources fighting the company, they must be afraid of the possible outcome.

 

[767jetz]

Does your wife/husband work here as a pilot or F/A?

Once again trying to re-direct the conversation with irrelevant questions, since I guess you have nothing worth while to discuss.

Since you asked we can go over this AGAIN. No my wife does not work for US. She has a real job, pension and all. Thanks for asking. I have no relatives at US, only several friends who are former AWA pilots. I never held a paying ALPA position. Only some volunteer Family Awareness work and never sat behind a desk for ALPA nor had any flying dropped by ALPA. Clear enough? Do we need to go to court to get further clarification?

My only interest is the fact that what happens at one airline can potentially affect another down the road, I have my own strong opinions about what the east and USAPA are doing to the west and I think it's plain wrong, and I have witnessed first hand what many of you tried to do to my airline back in 2000. It's really that simple.

 

[MyJ4JjobSucks]

Thanks for the replies. I wasn't trying to imply that this particular suit from the company was frivolous. I was just curious as to whether there were any rules about the company filing suits. I've always heard in the past that union employees weren't allowed to sue the company. I don't now if there is any truth to that or not. Seems kinda like a bum deal that USAPA and Addington have to fork over more money for this mess.

 

[cleardirect]

But you were not obligated or felt the need to get pay parity for the east, right. Yes, it is tricky business. And if the east gets the LOA 84 pay, we will undertake the endeavor of getting you that pay at the same level you did for us. Fair?

Another history review since you guys seem to forget. The west was on board with you getting pay parity. Remember the coast to coast picketing events?

We supported pay parity right up to the time the east walked out of JNC talks. You know the talks that would have gotten us all more money back in 2007? Why did we stop supporting your pay parity? Because you guys started in exactly what you are saying now. You would take the money for yourself and never get a contract.

What did Parker tell you. Parity comes with a contract. Why is it that you think that the west even if we supported you the company would give it to you? Do you really think we have that kind of control? We can not get the company to agree to much of anything.


Now the more important point in parity. usapa has been the bargaining agent for over two years. The east is totally in charge as far as what the union does and what decision they make. If you east guys want pay parity the west has no say one way or the other. If you wanted it or could get it why has usapa not gotten it for you in 2 years? The west can not and has not done a thing to stop your parity since usapa took over.

One big problem with your theory. usapa has a duty to represent us fairly. The west pilots have no such duty.

Now go cry to usapa about your parity and ask them why this new union has not performed.

 

[Barrister]

This is just for clarifying a point, the big point. Just like they said in the letter. After all that went on in the 9th. you know what the outcome is going to be. The company is going to have to negotiate seniority with USAPA. This issue is perfectly clear, and the company knows it. They just get the fact the west is going to have a huge meltdown when they are faced with the fact that USAPA is the bargaining agent, and the Nic does not have to be the list like these guys claim over and over. It could not have been clearer to everyone all the way up to the Supreme Court, but the company gets the fact that a certain group of pilots keep spinning this over and over to their liking. They realize their own peril in not making this crystal clear for the last time. Even after Wake was denied, even after the 9th. There is still a vocal group here that just cannot get it. So this is it. Re read the 9th if you have any questions. I have no doubts personally. I just cannot get over the constant denial and spin. It is ridiculous. And when it is made crystal clear, these guys will try and spin it one more time. Rest assured, the company will make it perfectly clear where they stand. They have to or they will absolutely get a job action from the west. And after the clarification, they can hammer them for it.

Thanks BS,

They don't get it. Yes the 9th only HELD not ripe....
but their reasoning (dicta) was a slap down of epic proportion....
(at least to us and every other court hearing this going forward. )
There has to be a contract...before there is a potential DFR. DOH is in the charter
who ya gonna call?? Wake...don't think so. Been there done that!!
The risk is all on the West side. Get 500 westies voting yes and DFR is out the window.
Parker just wants to run his company (and delay) when you Westies file your little injunction.
Picture this....DOH with CRs....another trial....another 3-5 years....then
500-1000 upgrades out East....matter still not settled. Out F/Os move
up narrow-body to widebody pay raises. You think the pressure is on now...
just wait until attrition kicks in and THE WEST AIN'T MOVING...EVEN A LITTLE BIT.

NICDOA
NPJB

 

[traderjake]

Here is why you don't have a contract: the west continues to adhere to some socialist entitlement mentality that gives them credit for nothing.

What a bunch of garbage.

The West brought 120 airplanes to the merger and the Captains flying those airplane earned their jobs.

The East F/O's who are trying to steal those jobs did not.

Sitting on your butt for 10 years earns you nothing unless you're in jail.

 

[cleardirect]

What a bunch of garbage.

The West brought 120 airplanes to the merger and the Captains flying those airplane earned their jobs.

The East F/O's who are trying to steal those jobs did not.

Sitting on your butt for 10 years earns you nothing unless you're in jail.

The west brought 140 airplanes to the merger. Plus firm aircraft orders.

We are down to 120 min fleet.

 

[informed]

Is usapa on the hook for a frivolous RICO suit?

Who says that this is frivolous? the company is asking the court if they have to abide by the T/A and binding arbitration.

A weak union could BK itself by filing frivolous grievances. LOA 93, any guess what that cost?

Did the Fourth Circuit Court state that the Cactus 18 were innocent, or did they say it was not a RICO?

 

[cleardirect]

Did the Fourth Circuit Court state that the Cactus 18 were innocent, or did they say it was not a RICO?

The charges were so whacked that it never even got to trial. So no it was not RICO. Do you see anywhere in that ruling where they addressed ANY of the BS stuff Cleary and the rest have been saying? The fourth saw it for what it was. Web posts and phone calls are not illegal. Stating your opinion is not illegal except in usapa world. Most dictators feel the same way.

Did the ninth circuit say usapa did not violate DFR or did they say it was not ripe yet?

 

[luvthe9]

What a bunch of garbage.

The West brought 120 airplanes to the merger and the Captains flying those airplane earned their jobs.

The East F/O's who are trying to steal those jobs did not.

Sorry "Traitorjake" but there is not an east guy that wants to take any west jobs away from them. I thought you would be smarter than that, Nice try though.

 

[cleardirect]

Sorry "Traitorjake" but there is not an east guy that wants to take any west jobs away from them. I thought you would be smarter than that, Nice try though.

Really! So if the company decided to move PHX flying to the east. A west captain goes from captain to reserve F/O. That is stealing a west job.

Everyone one of you east guys wants to take something from the west by using DOH.

At the time of the merger Monda had 1475 furloughed pilots below him. Using DOH he gets 1509 west pilots below him to protect him from furlough. He was the bottom guy you want him to by 1500 from the bottom. That is taking from the west. Using the east DOH Monda goes from the bottom guy and only adds 229 west pilots above him. He goes from 3176 on his list to 3405 on a combined list. That is taking from the west.

So 229 west pilots in the top 3100 of a DOH list. Does that meet anyone's definition of integrated?

1509 west pilot mixed in with east furloughs. So according to the east placing 81% of all the west pilot below your furloughs is not a windfall and "fair". That is taking from the west.

You guys can say it as often as you want but a lie is still a lie.

 

[Black Swan]

Not sure about that. But this lawsuit is not against the union. It is a suit for explanatory purposes. If the union feels the need to object, and wants to spend their time and money doing so, I think they are on the hook for the cost no matter what.

This is the one thing I can not rectify in my mind though. I agree with most here that the motives of the company are as they say. (At least for now.) So if this is just a way for them to get a free pass from further litigation, why the "hissy fit" from the union and why spend the time and money. If USAPA sees fit to spend time and resources fighting the company, they must be afraid of the possible outcome.

They are not afraid of anything, although you love to stir the pot against USAPA and bait USAPA pilots from your ALPA perch. They already plowed this legal ground over and over with Addington and the 9th and the Supreme Court. And everyone that gets it, knows how it is going down. It is INTERNAL UNION MATTERS, regardless what you have said about it, and the rest of the gang.So of course they objected. I actually back the company on this, because it will finally shut down the twisting and constant resurrection of Nicolau. Everybody gets the Nic is dead, yet the West and Co. dig it up over and over. The company is well aware of the tantrum from the West that is looming on the horizon. They know how sue happy these guys and gals are. They are doing their homework, and I actually don't blame them. It is going to be a reaction like when you take the X Box away from the 13 yr. olds. USAPA is objecting because they feel the 9th made it unbelievably clear, and then it gets twisted by west legal and USAPA baiters into something it isn't. I can't wait until this is cleared up. Problem is, guys like you will try and spin it again. This time, the company is going to deal with the elected bargaining agent, and we all get who that is!

 

[Black Swan]

Once again trying to re-direct the conversation with irrelevant questions, since I guess you have nothing worth while to discuss.

Since you asked we can go over this AGAIN. No my wife does not work for US. She has a real job, pension and all. Thanks for asking. I have no relatives at US, only several friends who are former AWA pilots. I never held a paying ALPA position. Only some volunteer Family Awareness work and never sat behind a desk for ALPA nor had any flying dropped by ALPA. Clear enough? Do we need to go to court to get further clarification?

My only interest is the fact that what happens at one airline can potentially affect another down the road, I have my own strong opinions about what the east and USAPA are doing to the west and I think it's plain wrong, and I have witnessed first hand what many of you tried to do to my airline back in 2000. It's really that simple.

We want nothing, NOTHING to do with UAL, I feel sorry for Continental.

 

[nic4us]

Sorry "Traitorjake" but there is not an east guy that wants to take any west jobs away from them.

Of course they do not, unfortunately they want something they did not have prior to the merger and in order to get it they have to disadvantage the West pilot group to secure what they want.

Translation, they have to steal West jobs to get what they want.

Here is a little update for you 9. It is not Your company anymore. They are not your bases anymore. They are not your airplanes anymore. It is not your flying anymore. It is not your attrition anymore.

It is all community property, shared amongst the new combined pilot group. Combined via the contractually mandated, final and binding, Nicolau Award.

Anything less and you are stealing from the West.