US Pilots Labor Discussion 7/28- STAY ON TOPIC AND OBSERVE THE RULES

[nic4us]

Give us a break. You have your own LOA 93 there.

Actually, what we have out West is a contract 2004, that was amendable in 2006, 4 years ago.

As added evidence of the continued breach of its DFR obligations to the West, usapa denied the West section 6 negotiations to gain a better contract while at the same time zealously persued a seperate ops continuance combined with the loa 93 grievence. Trying to greatly enhance the position of the east under seperate ops and indeed delaying the operational pilot integration mandated by the TA, and the intent of the merger in the first place. In other words, usapa is intentionally forcing seperate ops and delaying, while hoping to make extra-contractual gains for the east, while simultaneously doing nothing to advance the West position (indeed trying to frustrate the West position) in an attempt to get West capitulation.

If there is a next trial, the Nic is only one of many breachs usapa has committed against the West. A new trial means new charges, new strategy, new complaints, and new damages.

 

[Pi brat]

Okay, here are a few questions for those that know more about law than I do. The company has filled a lawsuit to (supposedly) come to get an answer to whether they have to use the Nic or not, so one side or another will be told they can't have what they want. Does the losing party have the right to follow the same track as Addington,i.e. appeal to the 9th, then appeal to the SCOTUS? And let's say that the court says the company and USAPA are free to negotiate whatever they want, isn't there still the chance of another DFR against USAPA for not looking after the west's best interests? I'm guessing that would be a higher hill to climb with a federal court saying it was okay. I don't see this being over for many, many years and am not too sue the company did this to speed things up. If Parker wanted to do that he could have said "This is what we are going to do............"

 

[Black Swan]

One word: Greed

Yes- greed is taking what you never had or earned. If you manufacture an artificial seniority number that gives you credit for time you were never on the property, well that is greed.

 

[767jetz]

And let's say that the court says the company and USAPA are free to negotiate whatever they want, isn't there still the chance of another DFR against USAPA for not looking after the west's best interests?

Yes. This is what the west is saying. If the company is told they are not off the hook for the arbitrated list that they accepted, then this could be the end game. If they are told they are not liable in a future litigation, they get a free pass, but USAPA does not. USAPA will still be sued by the west pilots for failure to meet their DFR if they venture much (if at all) from the Nic. It really doesn't change the west strategy in any negative way, with the exception of not being able to drag the company into court along with USAPA as defendants. It does present a potential formidable problem for the east, which is why USAPA is fighting so hard against it.

 

[Black Swan]

Okay, here are a few questions for those that know more about law than I do. The company has filled a lawsuit to (supposedly) come to get an answer to whether they have to use the Nic or not, so one side or another will be told they can't have what they want. Does the losing party have the right to follow the same track as Addington,i.e. appeal to the 9th, then appeal to the SCOTUS? And let's say that the court says the company and USAPA are free to negotiate whatever they want, isn't there still the chance of another DFR against USAPA for not looking after the west's best interests? I'm guessing that would be a higher hill to climb with a federal court saying it was okay. I don't see this being over for many, many years and am not too sue the company did this to speed things up. If Parker wanted to do that he could have said "This is what we are going to do............"

This is just for clarifying a point, the big point. Just like they said in the letter. After all that went on in the 9th. you know what the outcome is going to be. The company is going to have to negotiate seniority with USAPA. This issue is perfectly clear, and the company knows it. They just get the fact the west is going to have a huge meltdown when they are faced with the fact that USAPA is the bargaining agent, and the Nic does not have to be the list like these guys claim over and over. It could not have been clearer to everyone all the way up to the Supreme Court, but the company gets the fact that a certain group of pilots keep spinning this over and over to their liking. They realize their own peril in not making this crystal clear for the last time. Even after Wake was denied, even after the 9th. There is still a vocal group here that just cannot get it. So this is it. Re read the 9th if you have any questions. I have no doubts personally. I just cannot get over the constant denial and spin. It is ridiculous. And when it is made crystal clear, these guys will try and spin it one more time. Rest assured, the company will make it perfectly clear where they stand. They have to or they will absolutely get a job action from the west. And after the clarification, they can hammer them for it.

 

[nic4us]

If Parker wanted to do that he could have said "This is what we are going to do............"

The question I have is did he try this before?

usapa passed a DOH list at the table, rumor has it the company said, thanks but no thanks, we already have a list we accepted as per that TA contract you inherited.

Was this not the company i.e. Parker, saying "This is what we are going to do....."?

The bottom line is that all the stalling has been brought on by the east pilots walking out of negotiations, electing usapa, and adamantly fighting against the Nic.

To now say that this is the company stalling is irrelevant, usapa has enabled the company to stall for as long as they want.

 

[Black Swan]

Yes. This is what the west is saying. If the company is told they are not off the hook for the arbitrated list that they accepted, then this could be the end game. If they are told they are not liable in a future litigation, they get a free pass, but USAPA does not. USAPA will still be sued by the west pilots for failure to meet their DFR if they venture much (if at all) from the Nic. It really doesn't change the west strategy in any negative way, with the exception of not being able to drag the company into court along with USAPA as defendants. It does present a potential formidable problem for the east, which is why USAPA is fighting so hard against it.

And here is a perfect example of why they had to do it again. All of these guys are smarter than the 9th. Unbelievable. I didn't see this guys' signature on the 9th opinion did you? But here he is, telling you something the 9th did not. The one that said the Nicolau did not have to be used, only that the west could not be harmed. And then they have to prove they were harmed. Tell me the Nicolau would not constitute harm to you? They have a massive uphill fight. Remember, how many DOH merges constituted the airlines' history? How did all the other groups merge? This is why their argument will fail.

 

[Pi brat]

The question I have is did he try this before?

usapa passed a DOH list at the table, rumor has it the company said, thanks but no thanks, we already have a list we accepted as per that TA contract you inherited.

Was this not the company i.e. Parker, saying "This is what we are going to do....."?

The bottom line is that all the stalling has been brought on by the east pilots walking out of negotiations, electing usapa, and adamantly fighting against the Nic.

To now say that this is the company stalling is irrelevant, usapa has enabled the company to stall for as long as they want.

If he did try this before he didn't do it in public. In public he has always said the company would remain neutral, even though his name is on the TA. I'm not sayin gthat this company did this to stall, but I believe the affect will be drawing it out even longer.

 

[767jetz]

This is nothing more than a clarification process.

True. Never said it wasn't. It's still called a lawsuit, filed in federal court. Some people really have a problem admitting they are wrong about anything.

If you want to term it some sort of seeking of damage, which you are always seeking, be my guest.

First you said the company didn't accept the Nicolau, but were proven wrong in black and white.

Then you said it's not a lawsuit, which again was proven to be wrong in black and white.

You also keep saying I bring up the damages trial ALL THE TIME, when in reality I asked the question ONCE. Wrong again. I even posted recently that if the court says the company is bound to use the arbitrated award, it would at least release the east from any future claim of damages. IMO that would actually be a GOOD thing, which once again proves your above statement wrong.

It really doesn't matter so much to me since we are all entitled to an opinion. But for someone who loves to accuse others of misinformation, tries to come across as so believable, and then turns around and says so many false things, you would think you would at least retract your statements when you are proven wrong. Doing otherwise only serves to diminish your credibility further.

You, as usual are giving it some monumental importance.
If you want to term it some sort of seeking of damage, which you are always seeking, be my guest.

Sorry, but wrong again. I haven't given this ANY monumental importance. Only the importance of the significance it deserves, which is to say that this COULD bring about a result for the west more quickly than any other. If it doesn't they are back to plan A which is to wait for a contract and sue USAPA if they feel they have a need to. That's not monumental. That's just a fact. Everyone on both sides has the right to pursue any legal course they feel will help them prevail.

Your own union has given this more monumental importance than anyone. They have already claimed that they will fight the company's LAWSUIT. Why would they do that if it's just a matter of clarification. Again, before you attack me for having an opinion, why don't you go talk to your own union reps firsts. They are the ones all up in arms about this.

I say it is the list they negotiate with USAPA.

So do others. Fine. Everyone is entitled to an opinion, and I don't begrudge yours. I just strongly disagree with you. Sorry that it bother's you so much.

Be patient. The decision will be possibly be coming soon.

I have all the patience in the world. Do you? Apparently very little for those who disagree with you. Taking your own advice would be a good idea in this regard.

As far as more moderate East posters? Guess what. If you turned a wheel on this property... blah, blah, blah

 

[nic4us]

If he did try this before he didn't do it in public. In public he has always said the company would remain neutral, even though his name is on the TA. I'm not sayin gthat this company did this to stall, but I believe the affect will be drawing it out even longer.

As we should have learned from the past, there are so many variables in the future that we cannot predict the outcome, or the timeline to that end.

I take this request at face value, and have no reason to believe the company has an alterior motive of as stalling as usapa claims. As I just pointed out in a previous post, all the delay is primarily of the east's and usapa's making. For usapa to come out with this update that says in effect, "hey we gave the company the keys to the stallmobile, and now they want to actually drive it", is enough to make me bang my head on the wall. Especially when the company is publicly stating they are driving the stallmobile to the dealer to trade it for a new model, the Buick "Resolution".

 

[767jetz]

And here is a perfect example of why they had to do it again. All of these guys are smarter than the 9th. Unbelievable. I didn't see this guys' signature on the 9th opinion did you? But here he is, telling you something the 9th did not. The one that said the Nicolau did not have to be used, only that the west could not be harmed. And then they have to prove they were harmed. Tell me the Nicolau would not constitute harm to you? They have a massive uphill fight. Remember, how many DOH merges constituted the airlines' history? How did all the other groups merge? This is why their argument will fail.

Who is your perceived audience here?

You REALLY need to take this stuff less personally. Especially on a public web forum.

This has nothing to do with who is smarter than whom. The company has attorneys advising them, and they believe they have a right to file this suit. So be it. It will run it's course. regardless of your OPINION or mine or anyone else.

As for "telling you something the 9th did not," I think you are the one guilty of that. The 9th said "not ripe." That's all. If it becomes ripe then they have every right to bring DFR #2 to court. I am not predicting the outcome of any of this except that IMO the odds favor the west. It can still go either way. You, my friend are the one claiming to know the outcome beyond any shadow of a doubt.

Although your reaction to any countering point of view implies that you really are afraid that the outcome may not be what you want. If you are truly sure that "their argument will fail" why all the drama? Wouldn't it be less stressful to state your opinions, allow others to have theirs, and wait and see how it unfolds? Maybe you have a more accurate crystal ball than anyone else here. But if not, the lawyers are being paid to do what they do. And the rest of us will still be here talking about it.

What I'd really like to know from you is this: IF this doesn't unfold the way you wish/predict/whatever, and IF the court tells the company they have no legal choice but to keep the list they already accepted, and IF USAPA then puts out a contract that includes the Nic in some form, will you be honorable enough to come back here and admit that you were wrong? Even though I never claimed to know the definite outcome of anything, I was one of the first on this thread to admit that the 9th ruling did not turn out as I had thought it might. How about you?

 

[cleardirect]

Yes- greed is taking what you never had or earned. If you manufacture an artificial seniority number that gives you credit for time you were never on the property, well that is greed.

Well I am glad that you are finally admitting the theivory of the east. Yes by your own definition the east is trying to steal something that you never had. Time on property. Here is a small list of east pilots that have at the time of the merger 15 years DOH but only 6 years or less ON THE PROPERTY. But you east guys want to give them full credit for something that did not earn. You guys are stealing with DOH.
Those last numbers are DOH and LOS.

Shame shame trying to steal 10 years by manufacturing a false number. At least with the west we followed a process that you agreed to and we let someone else decide what that number was going to be.

The east just flat theft.

So I guess if now integrity will demand that you guys stop demanding DOH. Correct!! Because you are trying to manufacture a false number.


U 4731 3639 38619 RANSOM R FUR 04/17/51 09/05/89 15.7 5.9
U 4732 3640 38626 BARTLEY T FUR 05/22/56 09/05/89 15.7 5.9
U 4733 3641 38629 REALE J FUR 02/20/57 09/05/89 15.7 6.1
U 4734 3642 38632 RING M FUR 11/09/57 09/05/89 15.7 5.9
U 4735 3643 38635 MILLER JR G FUR 09/19/59 09/05/89 15.7 5.9
U 4736 3644 88790 FARRELL D FUR 02/03/53 02/06/89 16.3 10.7
U 4737 3645 38638 BAILEY S FUR 12/19/59 09/05/89 15.7 5.9
U 4738 3646 38641 CHUSS J FUR 10/03/62 09/05/89 15.7 6.1
U 4739 3647 38643 ANDERSON E FUR 12/30/63 09/05/89 15.7 6.1
U 4740 3648 75636 COTTINGHAM G FUR 09/27/50 09/18/89 15.7 6.0
U 4741 3649 75646 PELOQUIN JR R FUR 06/10/54 09/18/89 15.7 6.0
U 4742 3650 88926 TREMBLAY P FUR 04/23/53 02/06/89 16.3 10.7
U 4743 3651 75648 ARMOR L FUR 07/24/55 09/18/89 15.7 6.0
U 4744 3652 75650 LOUGEE R FUR 10/24/55 09/18/89 15.7 6.0
U 4745 3653 75652 VIRGILIO JR J FUR 11/25/55 09/18/89 15.7 5.9

 

[cleardirect]

If Casher delivers the way we hope he does, the East gets an instant contract. After that, if that happens, we could care less about a contract. It is that easy.

If that is the case than DFR II becomes even easier. usapa still has a duty to represent all pilots fairly. If the east gets a raise (not going to happen) and usapa walks away from the talk leaving the west at our current wages.

DID NOT REPRESENT FAIRLY.


Now how about this. The east wind LOA 93(not going to happen). The company decides to transfer flying to the now cheaper side.
Or
The company decides that parity is now fair because usapa has not been fair and the company has to do what the union refuses to do and protect the pilots from the union.

That would be a good conversation in front of a jury. The company offered the west pilots pay parity but the union denied the west.

I would say that it is a good thing guys like you are not running the union but they are. People that are supposed to be a pilot union leadership are trying everyday to take from the west.

Karma is a hard thing and the more you mess with it the harder it hits back.

Those poor captains that have gone along with the angry FO's are going to retire on LOA 93 wages for nothing. And the AFOC will still have to live with Nicolau.

 

[nic4us]

Yes- greed is taking what you never had or earned. If you manufacture an artificial seniority number that gives you credit for time you were never on the property, well that is greed.

I am not so greedy as to want to take that furloughed position I never had or earned.

I am not so greedy as to want to take that loa 93 payscale and work rules I never had or earned.

I am not so greedy as to want any position that came from a property that I was never on, and could never be on, as it went away 5 years ago.

Why can you folks not get over the fact that the West pilots were not added to your list? That two list were combined in a fair and equitable manner. That any attempt at rearranging the combined seniority list by moving east pilots out of their positions and placing them ahead of West pilots that are senior to them will land usapa in a DFR lawsuit that they will undoubtably lose for a second time.

Never mind, do not answere the questions. It is overly obvious, as I have always stated, you have no idea of the position you are in, and are incapable of seeing the truth to the situation.

If the company's request is heard, and the court finds that the company is on the hook with usapa, this will all be over.

Further, DFRII is ripe as soon as usapa seeks to delay the company's filing.

 

[cleardirect]

Question?

If you east guys are so sure that it was ALPA's fault that you did not get a fair integration from Nicolau. If you are so sure that "windfall" was not fair. blah, blah, blah.

Why did you guys not man up and sue ALPA for DFR? Instead of picking up your dolls and going home.

At least the MDA guys tried. (probably failed but tried)