US Pilots Labor Discussion 7/28- STAY ON TOPIC AND OBSERVE THE RULES

[cleardirect]

I have one question. How is a motion for clarification suddenly termed a "company lawsuit?" And if the east loses the LOA 93 grievance, why would a contract with the Nic suddenly be a way out for east pilots? Pilots who would supposedly be living under LOA 93 would then give up pretty much every upgrade for the rest of their careers, and more senior guys give up any widebody flying with the inherent raises, which put them above ANY west pay scale presently? Remember, this supposedly superior west contract pays the 757 the same as a 737. So they have their own little LOA 93 buried in their deal. They don't talk much about that do they?So an East pilot takes the Nic, and then gives up the widebody pay so a west guy can get a raise on the 767 and 330. This makes no sense whatsoever Jetzz. The fact you don't work here explains a lot of your misguided and misinformed posts. You really don't know the reality of the situation. Seriously. Are you really trying to tell someone like me, who knows and works under this, that taking the Nic and all the loss of seniority is a good deal? You just will never get it. The entire notion is ridiculous . Why would an East F/O with 21 yrs take the Nic, and then the majority of the West pilots cascade into every upgrade, every vacation , forever? Why would an East narrowbody captain with 26-28 yrs and able to hold a widebody but doesn't for lifestyle now, give up a widebody bid when shortly there are massive retirements coming that will make them senior on the 76 or 330 give that up? It makes absolutely NO sense. Unless you constantly pander to the west, then it is perfectly clear.If you work here and know what is really going on, instead of posing hypotheticals that really make no sense then the peril of taking the Nic is decidedly clear. It is the last thing you ever take in a contract. Explain the LAWSUIT please. It isn't one. If it is, I guess the west got "sued" also.

More misstatement of facts. The Nicolau gives the east F/O’s 2 of every 3 upgrades. How is it that the east “give up pretty much every upgrade”?

As far as the WB flying goes. You guys only have 282 captains TOTAL. So your statements that somehow every one of you guys was going to be a WB captain at retirement is false. Besides if there are so many east captains that could hold WB captain but don’t I have to believe that it is not the great flying that you are trying to sell.

The captain are ratioed in a about 2-1 the same with the F/O.

So save the tears about a majority of west pilots cascading into every upgrade, vacation ect.

I suggest that you actually read the Nicolau and figure what you are talking about.

Do you guys really have that much trouble reading?

US Airways, Inc., a Delaware
Corporation,
Plaintiff,
v.
Don Addington, an individual; John
Bostic, an individual; Mark Burman, an
individual; Afshin Iranpour, an
individual; Roger Velez, an individual;
and Steve Wargocki, an individual, on
behalf of themselves and all other
similarly-situated individuals,

and

US Airline Pilots Association, an
unincorporated association,
Defendants.

 

[PullUp]

I mis typed the cap. It is a $7500 monthly cap. The complete information is available on Wings or on the USAPA websiste (R&I Committee Library). East Pilot Disability Summary Plan Description. Here's a link to Wings but you must log in.


https://wings.usairways.com/uswings/benefits/summary_plan_descriptions/14_us_pilot_ltd_spd2008.pdf

Read it again. If other income 'exceeds' the 50% amount, then it is offset. So you can earn Walmart pay upto the 100% mark and not be penalized.
All of Social Security income is offset.
The rest of the listed benefit payouts must exceed 100% of the average income for the past 12 months.
You don't have to take PBGC when disabled, just wait because the benefit is bigger if you wait.
The plan pays 50% of average income for the last 12 months with a cap of 7500. Anyone here making 15k/month?
But you are correct, not as good of a deal as before, but not too bad.

 

[nic4us]

The Court still has to deal with the dicta that the 9th put in their ruling.
Do you really think that filing for a dec. action will solve all of the issues in
one fell swoop. Not a chance. More delay.....same result. The co. may
get some protection but this court or any other court will not resolve this
issue until it is in a contract.. HAVEN'T YOU BEEN READING LATELY!!

NICDOA
NPJB
npjb

DICTA
The part of a judicial opinion which is merely a judge's editorializing and does not directly address the specifics of the case at bar; extraneous material which is merely informative or explanatory.

Dicta are judicial opinions expressed by the judges on points that do not necessarily arise in the case.

Dicta are regarded as of little authority, on account of the manner in which they are delivered; it frequently happening that they are given without much reflection, at the bar, without previous examination.



Barrister, you nailed this one with the term DICTA. Now once you figure out what the 9th said (not ripe=no jurisdiction), you will realize that the DICTA is merely Tashima editorializing on many factors that led to the opinion, and the phrasing of the counter arguement to Bybee's dissenting opinion. Future courts can and will ignore this DICTA, just as Tashima and Graber ignored the parts of Ramey and Jet America that they did not like or have use for because it was contrarty to their opinion.

There is absolutely no green light from the 9th for a usapa DOH seniority scheme ( contrary to Seham and/or Cleary or whoever is writing those usapa updates of unfounded opinion). The company sees this, and they see the obvious DICTA in the 9ths ruling that tells usapa it will be sued and face the "pain" in an "unquestionably ripe DFR" if it presses the "thorny question" and works the "disadvantages plaintiffs fear".

So you are probably right, no "court" will solve this until it is in a contract. But if a court tells the company that they must use the Nic or thay are on the hook with usapa, the company will never put it in a contract, usapa will never get released, and cooler heads will prevail as we simply vote in a new Nic inclusive contract for the benefit of all USAirways pilots, or we show usapa the door. Your (by Your , I mean the majority's) choice.

In any event, I relish the fact that usapa is going nutso over this.

 

[cleardirect]

Question for all of the usapa DOH loyalists. If DOH is in the C&BL and it is all mighty and controlling as you say it is in this case.

What happens in the next merger when we go into arbitration and usapa demands DOH throughout the proceedings. In the end the arbitrator decides that relative seniority or something other than DOH is the method to be used.

Do all of you have a DFR case against usapa for not delivering on the constitution? That usapa did not represent you fairly.

 

[Black Swan]

Swan, please go back to the Nic list and quote the employee numbers for upgrades if the Nic were active today. It is disingenuous to say that east pilots would never upgrade. There would be a mix of east and west in any upgrade class. Under DOH, however, it truly would be forever until a west pilot would upgrade. And unilateral C&R's are no comfort.



Better get used to it. It WILL be in any future contract with Parker.

Oh yeah, we will vote for that one, and the Nic. You guys are seriously out of touch if you think the East will go for a pay scale that pays the 73 and the 330 the same. Give us a break. You have your own LOA 93 there.

 

[Black Swan]

Wow! This is too easy. You really don't read anything but this forum for your info, do you? Just like the company accepting the Nic award that you argued and argued about and were then proven wrong. (Which by the way you never faced up to.) How about starting with your own union's documents:

USAPA NEWS FLASH

US Airways Seeks Declaratory Judgment on Pilot Seniority Issue

Despite earlier proclamations that it would remain 'neutral' on the seniority integration issue and allow the pilots to resolve the seniority integration issue among themselves, the Company today, July 26, 2010, filed a federal lawsuit in Arizona seeking to obtain a declaratory judgment. The suit, which was filed without advance notice to USAPA, was assigned to Judge Roslyn O. Silver in Phoenix.

Care to retract you comments? If you have so much heartburn with the term lawsuit, maybe you should take it up with your own union. IMO it sounds like some unnamed people are a bit sensitive since the they lost the little RICO suit. What's the word that seems to be so popular with the east? ... Oh yeah... "spanked."



I didn't say anything about east pilots taking anything. My hypothesis was based on the court telling the company that they are bound by the TA and the arbitrated list. (Which the company already accepted.)



You are sure taking other people's opinions personally. I have been prefacing most of my comments with "I believe" or "IMO." It's pretty inaccurate to label my posts as misguided and misinformed when they are just opinions. And for the record there have even been a few more moderate east posters here who have recently agreed with me in substance. Perhaps it would be more constructive to debate and discuss rather than attack when people's opinions don't conform to your own.

And since when does a person need to work for USAirways in order to form an opinion? There are a couple of non-airline/non-US people posting in support of the east. I don't see you attacking them for being outsiders.

These types of tantrums really don't lend themselves to the discussion at hand, which has been relatively civil for a couple of days. Thanks for bringing the toxic stew back. :blink:

This is nothing more than a clarification process. You, as usual are giving it some monumental importance. It is all about them distancing themselves and buying time. Nothing more. If you want to term it some sort of seeking of damage, which you are always seeking, be my guest. They are simply being smart, and going to see if they can get a court to make one last statement that the company can then use as a shield of immunity when they take the list they feel they have to take. I say it is the list they negotiate with USAPA. We all know what you and the west say, over and over, the Nic. Even after the ninth, you resurrect it over and over. Be patient. The decision will be possibly be coming soon. As far as more moderate East posters? Guess what. If you turned a wheel on this property you might understand. You don't and you will never get it. Wait till the East gets more new hires. The case for separate ops and more votes against the Nic are better and better. The east group knows that with each passing day, the airline is shorter and shorter on staffing. The retirements are going to gear up very strongly again. And the company is going to get a clear notification that courts are not interested in meddling in INTERNAL union affairs- that is unless you are the Desert Judge. We know what went down there.

 

[Black Swan]

Luvn737- what happens if the East does by chance win the LOA 93 grievance and the 767 and 330 rates go back to previous levels? And you think we are going to then vote for a contract that waters them back to your deal that pays all jets the same? Keep dreaming. I guarantee you lose it. If it ever comes to a contract we can agree on after those rates kick back in. All the pressure is completely shifted to your side. If we get those rates every East pilot will NEVER vote for a joint contract that pulls them back.

 

[Black Swan]

I mis typed the cap. It is a $7500 monthly cap. The complete information is available on Wings or on the USAPA websiste (R&I Committee Library). East Pilot Disability Summary Plan Description. Here's a link to Wings but you must log in.


https://wings.usairways.com/uswings/benefits/summary_plan_descriptions/14_us_pilot_ltd_spd2008.pdf

PC 4 does not take a hit if they put off taking PBGC while on disability. They actually accrue a higher monthly payout. PC 4 on disability should absolutely defer taking any benefit until actually retired

 

[luvthe9]

Too bad Nicolau didn't care about that...

Too bad you waited too long to get a joint contract where you could have gotten the Nic. You waited too long. Welcome to USAPA, your bargaining agent!

 

[cleardirect]

Too bad you waited too long to get a joint contract where you could have gotten the Nic. You waited too long. Welcome to USAPA, your bargaining agent!

Let's review why we don't have a contract.

Fall of 2007 the east pilots walked out of JNC talks never to return. The east pilots refuse to abide by agreed to arbitration.
April 2008 usapa (the east pilots) created usapa and became responsible for getting a contract.

Today Aug 2010 three years after the east pilots stole control from the west we are still without a contract and the east pilots are still on BK wages.

I don't see how you can say the "we" the west waited to long. It is the east pilots steering this disaster for the last three years. How much responsibility does Cleary have for us not having a contract now? how much responsibility do you the east pilots accept for this?

 

[luvthe9]

Let's review why we don't have a contract.

Fall of 2007 the east pilots walked out of JNC talks never to return. The east pilots refuse to abide by agreed to arbitration.
April 2008 usapa (the east pilots) created usapa and became responsible for getting a contract.

Today Aug 2010 three years after the east pilots stole control from the west we are still without a contract and the east pilots are still on BK wages.

I don't see how you can say the "we" the west waited to long. It is the east pilots steering this disaster for the last three years. How much responsibility does Cleary have for us not having a contract now? how much responsibility do you the east pilots accept for this?

If Casher delivers the way we hope he does, the East gets an instant contract. After that, if that happens, we could care less about a contract. It is that easy.

 

[luvthe9]

Hey Clear. Did you know under LOA 84 the 321 pays the same as the 757?

 

[luvthe9]

Let's review why we don't have a contract.

Fall of 2007 the east pilots walked out of JNC talks never to return. The east pilots refuse to abide by agreed to arbitration.
April 2008 usapa (the east pilots) created usapa and became responsible for getting a contract.

Today Aug 2010 three years after the east pilots stole control from the west we are still without a contract and the east pilots are still on BK wages.

I don't see how you can say the "we" the west waited to long. It is the east pilots steering this disaster for the last three years. How much responsibility does Cleary have for us not having a contract now? how much responsibility do you the east pilots accept for this?

Here is why you don't have a contract: the west continues to adhere to some socialist entitlement mentality that gives them credit for nothing. That idea does not fly in America anymore. You get what you earn, the time you actually put in on the job. The country is tired on entitled individuals. Madoff, Ebbers, Enron. All took what they didn't earn. It is that simple. Quit trying to steal what you never earned, and you might get a contract.

 

[RSVP767]

Let's review why we don't have a contract.

Fall of 2007 the east pilots walked out of JNC talks never to return. The east pilots refuse to abide by agreed to arbitration.
April 2008 usapa (the east pilots) created usapa and became responsible for getting a contract.

Today Aug 2010 three years after the east pilots stole control from the west we are still without a contract and the east pilots are still on BK wages.

I don't see how you can say the "we" the west waited to long. It is the east pilots steering this disaster for the last three years. How much responsibility does Cleary have for us not having a contract now? how much responsibility do you the east pilots accept for this?

Yes, let's review why we don't have a contract?

Two word: George Nicolau

 

[snapthis]

Yes, let's review why we don't have a contract?

Two word: George Nicolau

One word: Greed