US Pilots Labor Discussion 7/28- STAY ON TOPIC AND OBSERVE THE RULES

[767jetz]

I've been lurking here the past few months. I noticed that when there's a crisis, it gets really quiet and then those noise starts ramping up again.

It definitely has been relatively quiet, especially since the company filed their suit. Either there are many folks in the corn field, or they only like to post when the wind shifts in their favor. Obviously they are facing a stiff headwind with the 2 latest developments. (ie: company law suit and RICO)

I think they were caught completely by surprise, and I agree that they are in a major huddle trying to figure out their next move.

IMO, USAPA is planning their exit strategy just in case the company decides to stand firm on the Nic. If the east lose their LOA 93/ pay restoration attempt, USAPA's days are numbered. There is no way a majority of east pilots will continue indefinitely under LOA 93 pay rates and work rules. My guess is a major shuffle in union leadership, followed by a contract with Nic being put out for a vote with the excuse that the courts (or someone else) screwed them and they have no choice.

On another note, in some ways the company law suit could actually save the east in one regard. If they are forced to live with the arbitrated award and present a contract for vote, I believe the possibility of damages goes away too. I'm not sure about that. Perhaps someone could confirm or correct me on that. I further believe that in that case, the west RICO defendants would be wise to drop any suits against individuals in the east as an olive branch.

 

[aquagreen73s]

IMO, USAPA is planning their exit strategy just in case the company decides to stand firm on the Nic.

My opinion is that the goal of the company is to stand firm on nothing. How can they do that? See below.

If the east lose their LOA 93/ pay restoration attempt, USAPA's days are numbered.

With its present leadership, you're absolutely right. Either a leadership change or a CBA change.

There is no way a majority of east pilots will continue indefinitely under LOA 93 pay rates and work rules.

I agree, and this will be the determinant of which of the above two choices is chosen by the pilot group.

My guess is a major shuffle in union leadership, followed by a contract with Nic being put out for a vote with the excuse that the courts (or someone else) screwed them and they have no choice.

Agreed.

On another note, in some ways the company law suit could actually save the east in one regard. If they are forced to live with the arbitrated award and present a contract for vote, I believe the possibility of damages goes away too.

Assuming the SCOTUS does not reverse the 9th, you are correct.

I further believe that in that case, the west RICO defendants would be wise to drop any suits against individuals in the east as an olive branch.

This is a very raw issue for the West. When in the history of aviation have pilots used a union to sue individual pilots on fabricated allegations via a statute designed to be used against people like John Gotti and Sammy The Bull? I think you're prognosis for USAPA is accurate - their days are probably numbered. Ironically, however, it won't be the seniority fight that USAPA is remembered for - it's going to be the Cactus 18 suit. I think it would be best to let the RICO stand as is, and let the stench of it filter through history for a long time.

 

[767jetz]

My opinion is that the goal of the company is to stand firm on nothing. How can they do that? See below.

I agree with this. I was not clear in my post. I meant it as if the company were standing firm because the court tells them they must.

 

[aquagreen73s]

Yeah. I don't think the company is going to get much from their suit, other than the court will tell them that they're really asking for an advisory opinion which is something the court cannot do. With that the company will return to the table and basically not negotiate. The union can jump up and down, but what are they going to do? Ask to get released? Right. The ending to this is turning out to be pretty much of a let down. It's going to play out exactly like many outside experts predicted: a lot of time wasted only to discover that it isn't a good idea to expect much success against a management when the union really does not have it's act together. The courts have punted and so has Parker. If the pilots want to drive in circles, then nobody is going to stand in their way (for the most part).

 

[snapthis]

Piedmont 1984 is not that senior... ...... Well maybe a little bit... but much more senior to you...
you were in diapers....

Actually I almost 50. Been a pilot since the 70's. Been through two airline furloughs, picked up the pieces and moved on. Along comes US Air, Parker says you guys figure it out. Five years later, it is still the Nic merry go round. OK, we don't agree, it is not a topic of discussion with my East friends. Moderator Richard, is pulling his hair out for us to knock it off. You have a bridge builder, Trader Jake being marked as a traitor. Other employee groups are piping in for us to knock it off. I find the schedulers, gate agents, mechanics and dispatchers of the old US AIr professional.

My point with 1984 is I did a lot of observing before climbing in the sandbox. I am not trying to throw sand in anyones face unless you sling mud at me.

 

[prechilill]

The only caveat to your indefinite holding pattern theory Aqua is the merger element. This brings the toxic change of control language east pilots have and also the unappetizing seniority litigation to the forefront- both of which can be deal breakers to any transaction and must be resolved before another deal can be brokered. I think this is what Parker learned from the UAL debacle and may be the reason the company is unexpectedly taking some action on seniority integration. Parker doesn't make money operationally with airlines, he guts them and spruces up the balance sheet and sells them, kind of like your old avatar showing Kurt Russell. TImes are looking good, for now, so perhaps this buys Parker more time to sit on this company before he needs to make a move but eventually he will have to do something. Up until now, Parker has been successful ignoring the elephant in the room (USAPA) but that can't go on forever either as he may have learned from United. Now that the 9th punted on the seniority issue and ruled only on the ripeness of the case, the company is going to have to decide whether they want to follow the TA and use Nicolau or intentionally break the TA and side with Seham and Cleary. Put in this context I would be surprised with the latter.

 

[snapthis]

IMO, USAPA is planning their exit strategy just in case the company decides to stand firm on the Nic. I further believe that in that case, the west RICO defendants would be wise to drop any suits against individuals in the east as an olive branch.

We already know the next card will be the safety card or the inability to fly with West crews. I know some of the 18 most likely depends on USAPA's next move. Just a guess.

 

[nycbusdriver]

It definitely has been relatively quiet, especially since the company filed their suit. Either there are many folks in the corn field, or they only like to post when the wind shifts in their favor. Obviously they are facing a stiff headwind with the 2 latest developments. (ie: company law suit and RICO)

I think they were caught completely by surprise, and I agree that they are in a major huddle trying to figure out their next move.

IMO, USAPA is planning their exit strategy just in case the company decides to stand firm on the Nic. If the east lose their LOA 93/ pay restoration attempt, USAPA's days are numbered. There is no way a majority of east pilots will continue indefinitely under LOA 93 pay rates and work rules. My guess is a major shuffle in union leadership, followed by a contract with Nic being put out for a vote with the excuse that the courts (or someone else) screwed them and they have no choice.

On another note, in some ways the company law suit could actually save the east in one regard. If they are forced to live with the arbitrated award and present a contract for vote, I believe the possibility of damages goes away too. I'm not sure about that. Perhaps someone could confirm or correct me on that. I further believe that in that case, the west RICO defendants would be wise to drop any suits against individuals in the east as an olive branch.

With the exception of a few of your comments in this post, I find myself mostly agreeing with you for the first time I can remember,

It is quite obvious that USAPA (and everyone else outside "Mahogany Row" in Tempe) was caught completely by surprise by the company filing. It was a 180 degree shift from Parker's well-documented stand of neutrality on the pilot seniority integration. I think it's been quiet because everyone is tying to figure out how innocent or nefarious the company's motives are for making this filing. If they are really only seeking to delay a contract for another year or more, it would seem that they are very confident regarding the LOA 93 pay arbitration. Or, maybe the crack legal team at Tempe HQ can't reach consensus on how this may play out, so they are looking for hints (protection) from the courts.

I don't think USAPA is going away. Even if it does, ALPA will not be back on this property. If another representational election comes about, my guess is that we will be Teamsters when the dust settles. One of the main reasons the Teamsters was not in the mix before the USAPA election was that they had an agreement with AFL-CIO member unions that they would not poach, so they refused any offer to become our collective bargaining agent. Since USAPA is not AFL-CIO, the Teamsters could come in now. However, I haven't seen an election request card, so there doesn't seem to be any real push to dump USAPA.

Even a court-ordered force down of the Nic award would not necessarily be the end of USAPA. Possibly, but not necessarily. The scenario I envision from my tea leaves is that, if the Nic does indeed survive AND by some miracle a new contract gets ratified (VERY unlikely, IMHO), there will be a plethora of long term medical disability claims coming in from many of the east pilots who were most affected by the Nic. They will take their half-pay until reaching 65, and find something outside of flying to make up the difference. If there are enough of them, it may tip the balance of votes But there is not a lot of love lost between the west pilots and ALPA. If they get their Nic, they will not vote ALPA back any more than the east pilots will.

 

[prechilill]

I miss Reed Richards and her washing machine spin style of writing.

 

[Barrister]

With the exception of a few of your comments in this post, I find myself mostly agreeing with you for the first time I can remember,

It is quite obvious that USAPA (and everyone else outside "Mahogany Row" in Tempe) was caught completely by surprise by the company filing. It was a 180 degree shift from Parker's well-documented stand of neutrality on the pilot seniority integration. I think it's been quiet because everyone is tying to figure out how innocent or nefarious the company's motives are for making this filing. If they are really only seeking to delay a contract for another year or more, it would seem that they are very confident regarding the LOA 93 pay arbitration. Or, maybe the crack legal team at Tempe HQ can't reach consensus on how this may play out, so they are looking for hints (protection) from the courts.

I don't think USAPA is going away. Even if it does, ALPA will not be back on this property. If another representational election comes about, my guess is that we will be Teamsters when the dust settles. One of the main reasons the Teamsters was not in the mix before the USAPA election was that they had an agreement with AFL-CIO member unions that they would not poach, so they refused any offer to become our collective bargaining agent. Since USAPA is not AFL-CIO, the Teamsters could come in now. However, I haven't seen an election request card, so there doesn't seem to be any real push to dump USAPA.

Even a court-ordered force down of the Nic award would not necessarily be the end of USAPA. Possibly, but not necessarily. The scenario I envision from my tea leaves is that, if the Nic does indeed survive AND by some miracle a new contract gets ratified (VERY unlikely, IMHO), there will be a plethora of long term medical disability claims coming in from many of the east pilots who were most affected by the Nic. They will take their half-pay until reaching 65, and find something outside of flying to make up the difference. If there are enough of them, it may tip the balance of votes But there is not a lot of love lost between the west pilots and ALPA. If they get their Nic, they will not vote ALPA back any more than the east pilots will.

The Court still has to deal with the dicta that the 9th put in their ruling.
Do you really think that filing for a dec. action will solve all of the issues in
one fell swoop. Not a chance. More delay.....same result. The co. may
get some protection but this court or any other court will not resolve this
issue until it is in a contract.. HAVEN'T YOU BEEN READING LATELY!!

NICDOA
NPJB
npjb

 

[cleardirect]

Do you east guys ever wonder why we laugh at Seham and his antics in court? It is because he ignores basic facts that are so easily proven wrong. Kind of like you guys. Here is a filing to the court from Seham again misstating that the merger only applied to the merger reps. The same thing that he tried in court the last time that no one believed.

Well representatives have to represent someone. Kind of like attorneys represent their clients. The merger reps represented the pilots of each pilot group.

This is what Seham told the court the ninth said, the other is exactly what the ninth actually did say. Judges really don’t like it when you tell them untruths. I think the company lawyers may have something to say about that.


Seham filing:

ALPA maintained an internal union “Merger Policy” which, in the absence of an
agreement between unelected “Merger Representatives,” provided that ALPA’s seniority
integration proposal would be determined by an internal Arbitration Board composed of
two non-voting ALPA members chosen from ALPA’s Master List of Pilot Neutrals and
an ALPA-approved arbitrator who acted as the Arbitration Board’s Chairman. The
parties to the arbitration, as found by the Ninth Circuit, were “the US Airways Pilot
Merger Representatives and the America West Pilot Merger Representatives.” Id. These
Merger Representatives were subject to expulsion from ALPA if they resisted the ALPAgoverned
process or merger criteria.

Ninth Circuit:

George Nicolau was selected to chair the arbitration panel,
pursuant to the Merger Policy. Arbitration commenced
between “the US Airways Pilot Merger Representatives and
the America West Pilot Merger Representatives.” In early
May 2007, the panel issued its award (the “Nicolau Award”).
A majority of East Pilots “strenuously objected” to the
Nicolau Award and opposed its implementation. The East
Pilot representatives sought to have ALPA prevent implementation
of the Nicolau Award. ALPA unsuccessfully attempted
to get the two sides to reach a compromise

That is the only place that merger reps were mentioned. This was background not a determination. Yes it was the merger reps in the room but they represented the pilots not just themselves. That is like saying the court proceedings were between Harper and Seham.

Here is what judge Wake had to say about Seham's theory that arbitration only applied to 4 people.

THE COURT: Let me -- you can help me by speaking to
this concern. I have listened to this throughout the trial.
The notion that representatives make agreements that are not
binding on their principals is contrary to all notions of law.
So when you say it's the representatives but it doesn't affect
the interest of the principals, that is not only contrary to
fundamental notions of law, it appears to be contrary to basic
good faith as well.

This is what the Nicolau award had to say about who the parties to the arbitration were.

In the Matter of the Seniority Integration of
The Pilots of US Airways, Inc.
and
The Pilots of America West Airlines, Inc.

That does not say merger reps it says pilots. If Seham and usapa want to be taken seriously by the court he better stick with the facts.

 

[hp_fa]

I too was surprised by the company's filing of the declaratory relief action, but it immediately made a lot of sense to me. Think it through.

The company is mired in a situation where it has two divergent seniority plans competing for the Section 22 language. One is the expected USAPA list, which will be based on DOH/LOS and will supposedly also contain some terms, conditions and protections. The second is the substance of the Nicolau list, which would likely need some tweaking after the amount of time that has passed since the original award and a future possible implementation date. The company has already accepted the Nicolau list back in December 2007, so just the act of changing the list that they agreed to accept and subsequently accept would potentially fuel legal action against the company. Arguably the company wants to forestall that and seems to want to accelerate the resolution of how Section 22 will look at the time that a contract is meaningfully negotiated.

I disagree with posters and others who claim that the company is no longer acting in a neutral fashion. The company, in its lawsuit, provided the court with three potential resolutions for the court to consider and rule upon. The company would merely have to act according to the eventual court ruling to be clear of future liability. They want guidance and they want it sooner rather than later and also a path that will free itself of future liability in resolving the clear conflict of what seniority list it needs to follow going forward.

The question, that most of the posters seem to have not asked, is why is the company attempting to expedite the resolution of this problem? The company could have continued to sit entirely neutral, waited for any determination of of whether the Supreme Court will accept certiorari, if accepted waited for any proceedings to play out and then move forward accordingly. Many have argued that the company benefits from any and all delay in that it continues to pay less than any future contract might provide. So what is driving the company to move forward in an effort to find resolution of these issues sooner rather than later when resolving the issues sooner may cost the company more (sooner) in the form of wages? My primary theory is a merger. It is likely that no other airline wants anything to do with LCC as long as the pilot's labor dispute is unresolved. Accordingly my theory is that potential merger is a sufficient reason to get the company to move forward, even at the potential cost of higher wages sooner rather than later.

 

[767jetz]

If there are enough of them, it may tip the balance of votes But there is not a lot of love lost between the west pilots and ALPA. If they get their Nic, they will not vote ALPA back any more than the east pilots will.

I agree. I don't think ALPA will return to USAirways, with the exception of a future merger with an ALPA carrier. Contrary to the claims of some here, I'm not an ALPA rep of any sort nor do I care who represents other airlines. I just have my own opinion of right and wrong, just like everyone else. If USAPA survives when the dust settles, it will have to have new leadership and C&BL's that are less divisive.

 

[767jetz]

My primary theory is a merger. It is likely that no other airline wants anything to do with LCC as long as the pilot's labor dispute is unresolved. Accordingly my theory is that potential merger is a sufficient reason to get the company to move forward, even at the potential cost of higher wages sooner rather than later.

While I agree that your reasoning is sound, it begs the question "with whom?"

UA will not entertain a merger until their current merger is complete. We are neck deep in integration activity on every level to consummate the deal by years end and have operational integration by Q2 2012. (According to internal communications)

I doubt DL would look at another merger so soon either. That leaves AA who is far from being in any condition to merge considering their labor problems and lack of profitability.

The only 2 other scenarios would be a US hostile move on AA while they are down and in a weak position (not likely IMO) or a smaller scale merger with someone like Air Tran or even Republic. As this is not the thread for merger discussions, I only present this as a follow on thought to your theory of what's driving the company's law suit. It is not my intention to drag this into a merger theory discussion. We all know there are many of those floating around.

 

[Piedmont1984]

I am not going to search the archives, but does anyone remember whether USAirways was already granted immunity during preliminary court proceedings on the eve of the Addington lawsuit?