US Pilots Labor Discussion 7/13- STAY ON TOPIC AND OBSERVE THE RULES

[Phoenix]

We would have left LOA 93 long ago were it not for the formation of a new union. We could have had a industry standard contract if it had been accomplished the last time USAirways was a profitable airline.

Hopefully, USAPA doesn't blow it for us again while the company is making money.

And I didn't vote for LOA 93 for excactly the same reasons you didn't.

Shazam.. even you didn't vote for LOA 93. It appears official now... No one actually voted for LOA 93. Perhaps the only explanation for its passage is obvious.

And I think most of the USAir pilots were tired of ALPA industry standard contracts being won for them because every thing ALPA kept bringing included furloughs for the bottom 49% and downgrades for the next 25%.

 

[cleardirect]

Very interesting read from the company lawyers. The company just dropped their pants and told the court and usapa which way they want this thing to go.

If after reading the declaratory relief someone can not figure out how this is going to end up they are beyond help and reason.

I would dearly love to be at usapa HQ today watching the meltdown and scrambling going on over there.

Please explain. If usapa is so confident that they are going to get DOH and the company will just hand it over. Why oppose the motion? Get the court to give the company a get out of jail free card and get to a contract. If usapa is so confident that they are going to win the next DFR why worry if the company is part of it or not?

Just a little fact for all of the east pilots that deny reality.

But the undisputed facts in this case show otherwise. For more than three years,
US Airways has waited for the two pilot groups to resolve their seniority dispute. And,
during that time, US Airways has remained neutral, has accepted the Nicolau list when
tendered by ALPA, has not accepted or encouraged USAPA’s contrary “date-of-hire”
seniority demands, and has not shown any animosity whatsoever to the West Pilots or the
East Pilots.

 

[Metroyet]

Nice try on the spin wheel.

Just because the Company isn't buying Lee Sehams Lies, doesn't mean their not being neutral. One of you Easties kept explaining to me how it was IMPOSSIBLE to sue the company for breach of contract because of RLA. I guess the company didn't get that memo. The TA is not a CBA. RLA does NOT apply. They're obviously worried. So is Seham hence the ubiquitous "no merit" tag line. I love the outrage that they weren't "consulted" first. The delusions of grandeur continue unabated. Defendants don't always get asked for their input before they're sued.

If it turns out the Company is liable. USAPA is toast.

If it turns out the Company is not liable for some unforeseen legal reason, USAPA is NOT AT ALL off the DFR hook even though that LIE will be shouted from the roof tops. Bradfords' back-of-the-van idea has hamstrung the company and all of it's employees for years now. It has cost the pilots of US Airways hundreds, (if not a billion) dollars of lost wages and benefits. For what? What do you have to show for it?

Oh; for those of you who discount the Companies acceptance of the Nic. award. Read pages 8-9. That's not quite what Lee Seham told you is it?

 

[luvthe9]

Very interesting read from the company lawyers. The company just dropped their pants and told the court and usapa which way they want this thing to go.

If after reading the declaratory relief someone can not figure out how this is going to end up they are beyond help and reason.

I would dearly love to be at usapa HQ today watching the meltdown and scrambling going on over there.

Please explain. If usapa is so confident that they are going to get DOH and the company will just hand it over. Why oppose the motion? Get the court to give the company a get out of jail free card and get to a contract. If usapa is so confident that they are going to win the next DFR why worry if the company is part of it or not?

Just a little fact for all of the east pilots that deny reality.

And now we have contestant number two stepping up to the spin wheel with"his' interpretation. Who's next.....?

 

[Crzipilot]

We would have left LOA 93 long ago were it not for the formation of a new union. We could have had a industry standard contract if it had been accomplished the last time USAirways was a profitable airline.

Hopefully, USAPA doesn't blow it for us again while the company is making money.

And I didn't vote for LOA 93 for excactly the same reasons you didn't.

where anywhere did you see industry standard from what the company slid across the table? Without going and looking, I'd bet the famous "kirby" proposal was well behind the spirit proposal

 

[ROACLT]

Obviously this is an attempt to maintain the status quo, keep the infighting ongoing, and avoid negotiating in a serious way for a new contract. The 9th Circuit ruled on the issues of ripeness and its almost as if the attorneys filing didn't read the opinion, or their motives aren't what they are claiming. The 9th ruled that USAPA is free to bargain without interference, period. It clearly ruled that it has an obligation to do so in good faith, which it defined by citation in its opinion and because of any number of variables, some listed, adjudication would be premature and the case lacked jurisdiction. All of those same facts still exist. The case cited in US Airways' complaint was a general catch all case, that isn't in anyway similar to the facts of this one. Typically a complaint contains no case citation, it is usually just consists of the facts associated with the alleged complaint. It was kind of odd, that they included it.

Under federal rules on Declaratory judgement, when served with a complaint, there is 30 days for the named defendant or defendants to respond. Discovery is a minimum of 6 months per the federal rules, any challenges or objections delays another 90, so in essence it will be close to a year until Judge Silver actually has a hearing on the merits. If she were to actually grant US Airways request for Declaratory judgement, she would have to conduct her own trial on the merits of what USAPA's obligations and responsibilities pursuant to DFR are make a ruling as to whether negotiating bases off its own Constitution and By-Laws and the seniority methodology was a breach of "Good Faith", so an entirely new trial before her conducted with the same jurisdictional issue that was argued and answered before the 9th Circuit. If the trial conducted before her turned out in USAPA's favor, the Addington plaintiffs would appeal and use the decision just rendered by the 9th Circuit, to argue for the case to be dismissed on ripeness. Given the precedent of that opinion it would likely be granted. So anyone with any legitimate legal knowledge and perspective can see that this case will likely be dismissed on the ripeness issue but because the time and structure built into federal court rules, it will likely be at least a year from now.

 

[PullUp]

never mind.

 

[767jetz]

I would dearly love to be at usapa HQ today watching the meltdown and scrambling going on over there.

Please explain. If usapa is so confident that they are going to get DOH and the company will just hand it over. Why oppose the motion? Get the court to give the company a get out of jail free card and get to a contract. If usapa is so confident that they are going to win the next DFR why worry if the company is part of it or not?

There must be some serious midnight oil being burned while they figure out how to spin this one at USAPA HQ.

I had the same thoughts. Why oppose something like this if you are so sure of the outcome in the first place? The company is just covering their a$$ here. Get the contract with DOH out there and be done with it.

What ever happened to "slam dunk; the Nic is dead; internal union matter; the ninth spanked you and it's over; we won and you lost get over it; etc. etc.?????" Apparently it's not quite so dead nor the outcome so certain after all, huh?

I'm sure Luvthe9 and others will spin their heads off trying to put a smile on this one. Not only did the company show their hand, another judge ruling that the nic must be used would bring the "post 9th party" to a screeching halt. This clearly proves that all the speculation by the east on this forum has been nothing but bunk. If it is SO clear cut and straight forward there would be no need for this lawsuit. I guess the company lawyers understand that there are certain legal obligations they will not get out of just because USAPA would like it to be so. I'm dying to see how this curve ball ends up! In the mean time USAPA will waste even more money while the lawyers ride this cash cow.

And people ask why others follow this story. You can't find this kind of drama, suspense, and twisting plot anywhere else!

 

[Metroyet]

because the time and structure built into federal court rules, it will likely be at least a year from now.

Remember to thank Bradford and his fellow van dwellers next time you see them. They created this mess. Who needs CEO's like Lorenzo when you have faithful career destroyers like the founding fathers?

 

[ROACLT]

There must be some serious midnight oil being burned while they figure out how to spin this one at USAPA HQ.

I had the same thoughts. Why oppose something like this if you are so sure of the outcome in the first place? The company is just covering their a$$ here. Get the contract with DOH out there and be done with it.

What ever happened to "slam dunk; the Nic is dead; internal union matter; the ninth spanked you and it's over; we won and you lost get over it; etc. etc.?????" Apparently it's not quite so dead nor the outcome so certain after all, huh?

I'm sure Luvthe9 and others will spin their heads off trying to put a smile on this one. Not only did the company show their hand, another judge ruling that the nic must be used would bring the "post 9th party" to a screeching halt. This clearly proves that all the speculation by the east on this forum has been nothing but bunk. If it is SO clear cut and straight forward there would be no need for this lawsuit. I guess the company lawyers understand that there are certain legal obligations they will not get out of just because USAPA would like it to be so. I'm dying to see how this curve ball ends up! In the mean time USAPA will waste even more money while the lawyers ride this cash cow.

And people ask why others follow this story. You can't find this kind of drama, suspense, and twisting plot anywhere else!

No need to spin this. It is evident on the face of it, that this is an attempt to perpetuate the current state of affairs. Just because of the nature of federal rules, it buys almost a year before there would be a hearing on the merits but all of the same ripeness issues still apply. If Judge Silver were to actually grant the request, she would have conduct an entirely new trial between USAPA and the Addington Plaintiffs with the same jurisdictional issue in question. If the trial before her, resolved in USAPA's favor, the Addington plaintiffs could appeal and use the 9th Circuit opinion just rendered to have the case dismissed on ripeness. Nothing is certain but it is very likely she will dismiss the case but it will probably be this time next year before the process gets to that point.

 

[N924PS]

I'm sure Luvthe9 and others will spin their heads off trying to put a smile on this one. Not only did the company show their hand, another judge ruling that the nic must be used would bring the "post 9th party" to a screeching halt.

Expect the usual party line.

-It's ALPA's fault.

-Another senile judge.

-Internal Union Dispute.

The drama, the intrigue, oh the humanity...............

 

[767jetz]

Come to think of it, considering the significance of this development it's been awfully quiet from the peanut gallery. All I hear is crickets. Looks like Luvthe9 is the only one squawking, and all he has to say is that we're the one's spinning. (Hello, pot. Meet Kettle.) I wonder where oldie, nycbusdriver, Phoenix, frieghterguy, Black Swan, and the rest are?

Whoever claims the 9th didn't end the dispute is trying to change the question at hand. There is no dispute. The Wake injunction is dead and USAPA is free to negotiate. No more access to the court until after the next contract is ratified. And then the standard of DFR published by the SC, cited by the 9th, will apply.

Hey Phoenix, I bet you didn't see this one coming.

 

[767jetz]

No need to spin this. It is evident on the face of it, that this is an attempt to perpetuate the current state of affairs. Just because of the nature of federal rules, it buys almost a year before there would be a hearing on the merits but all of the same ripeness issues still apply.

Nothing is certain but it is very likely she will dismiss the case but it will probably be this time next year before the process gets to that point.

You very well may be right. But it sure puts the brakes on the cheering and celebrating from the east pilots who were so confident that things will go their way after the 9th. I've said all along that NO ONE can predict the outcome of this until EVERY legal avenue has been exhausted. The 9th ruling was just one more step in a long (now even longer) road.

IMO I think you will see either a stronger push from east pilots who are growing fatigued with the thought of retiring under LOA93 to settle matters with the west, or a push for another new union representation election.

 

[USA320Pilot]

767jetz,

767jetz asked: "As an east pilot yourself, I'm wondering what you hear out on the line speaking to other east pilots about what USAPA is doing or planning?"

USA320pilot comments: 767jetz, I believe the tide has shifted on the East where most Captains and many First Officers now believe the information they were provided by Steve Bradford, Lee Seham, and USAPA's founding fathers was invalid. The majority of East and West pilots want to move forward, accept the Nicolau Award, and negotiate a reasonable joint contract. And, I believe there are enough votes to elect a new union through an NMB ordered Representation Election, with most likely seeking a return to ALPA forthcoming, if USAPA loses the LOA 93 Pay Freeze Arbitration, with the Opinion & Award due in August or September.

In this debate people seem to forget the East and West contract requires the pilots to accept the Nicolau Award.

On September 23, 2005 the Airline Parties (US Airways' Management, the East MEC, and the West MEC) signed the Transition Agreement. The Transition Agreement states in Section 1V. A., "the seniority lists of America West pilots and US Airways pilots will be integrated in accordance with ALPA Merger Policy and submitted to the Airlines parties for acceptance. The Airline Parties will accept such integrated seniority list, including conditions and restrictions."

No where in the Transition Agreement does it state anything other than the parties "will accept" the Award.

In the end, for me this issue is about integrity and not going back on our word by breaking a promise. Far too many people are accommodating their thoughts to believe what they want to hear when we all know the East pilots broke a promise for money and their desire to virtually staple the West pilots (85 percent) to the bottom of the seniority list with DOH/C&Rs. It does not matter to me one iota any one else thinks because because I would have to live with myself by knowing I broke a promise - I can't do that.

Reneging or going back on one's word, violating our contract in the process, and breaking a promise for money and to staple another pilot group after agreeing to a "final and binding" arbitration, not maybe "final and binding arbitration", is wrong. That is the truth and everybody knows it. In my opinion, US Airways' pilots are viewed in the industry by managements, other pilot groups, and outside observers as people they do not want to merge or work with because the East pilots cannot be trusted. I can see why.

It's too bad and this probably contributed to US Airways not being part of the Big 3 legacy companies (so far anyways) because US Airways' pilots, both East and West, are some of the best pilots in the world and deserve better from their union leadership that I believe continues to fail its members time-and-time again.

Regards,

USA320Pilot

 

[vsi0]

USA320pilot comments: 767jetz, I believe the tide has shifted on the East where most Captains and many First Officers now believe the information they were provided by Steve Bradford, Lee Seham, and USAPA's founding fathers was invalid. The majority of East and West pilots want to move forward, accept the Nicolau Award, and negotiate a reasonable joint contract. And, I believe there are enough votes to elect a new union through an NMB ordered Representation Election, with most likely seeking a return to ALPA forthcoming, if USAPA loses the LOA 93 Pay Freeze Arbitration, with the Opinion & Award due in August or September.


Regardless of anyones stance on the issues--the above comment is totally without merit.