US Pilots Labor Discussion 3/26- STAY ON TOPIC AND OBSERVE THE RULES

[Poug Darker]

And me and every other pilot on the property, both east and West would take it while we got other ducks in a row, meanwhile the on time performance might get to 45% in a good month, and the completion factor would go haywire.

No doubt about it, you're 100% accurate. However, everyone's career (if you can call it that) here would be over, one way or another.
That is the ultimate reality.
Cheers.

 

[cleardirect]

RLA has it's own body of law that the legislature has empowered it to handle management-labor negotiations outside the confines of the court system unless and until the final prosuct of negotiations are produced.

Again do you not understand who the parties are to this litigation. You point out Labor-management. This case has to do with labor-labor. Other wise there would never be a DFR case to cite.

Yes. The district seems to have lead the jury in that direction. The LEGITIMATE union objective is: my day of employment is EQUAL to your day of employment. That IS a legitimate objective and THAT is the objective that, ultimately, the SCOTUS will address. In fact, I believe this may HELP all airline pilots in FUTURE mergers...the elimination of career expectations in airline mergers.

Seems, meaning nothing more than your opinion. Everyone else’s opinion is that the judge did it correctly. Did you hear any questions or concerns from the court on anything other than ripeness? Nope 7 minutes of uninterrupted babble from Seham. You guys tried to make the case that your days were the same as our days during N/M/A. The guy that we hired to make that decision disagreed. The three arbitrators that decided the NWA/DAL case also disagreed with your opinion. Just because it is your opinion does not make it a legitimate union objective.

My opinon, SCOTUS will not look at or even take. Going further I don't think that the will of the majority is to even file with SCOTUS.

Only eliminate unrealistic career expectations.

 

[cleardirect]

Wages go up, then wages go down. Been there, done that. Seniority (being the only item of value left to the east) and what seat you hold when the music stops cannot be taken away by the company.
USAPA is doing a wonderful job of preserving east senioriy. Bravo.

Seniority being the only of value left.

You better get with you east brothers and get your story straight. We hear all of the time about what a money machine the east coast operation is. That it was the east that saved both places. Now you tell us that a 17 year junior reserve F/O has value.

The only thing usapa is preserving is your sad wages and working conditions.

 

[luvn737s]

Doug would have to throw a LOT of money into the pot to even hope for chance at ratification. The negotiators would have to come up with an outside-the-box solution to eliminate the financial disadvantage that Nicolau foisted on the east pilot group, especially the f/os who would have upgraded at some point, but now are precluded from ever doing that.

How about a solution that is reversed should ANY east F/O EVER upgrade? (Since of course you know that your fear mongering has no basis in reality).

"PRECLUDED FROM EVER"???? Really?

 

[Poug Darker]

Seniority being the only of value left.

You better get with you east brothers and get your story straight. We hear all of the time about what a money machine the east coast operation is. That it was the east that saved both places. Now you tell us that a 17 year junior reserve F/O has value.

The only thing usapa is preserving is your sad wages and working conditions.

How can you twist what I wrote into that gibberish?
What I said, and the meaning I meant to convey, was that after all the hits the east has taken, the ONLY thing left was the pecking order. As the older 'peckers' left, the younger ones would move up and fill those spots.
Following?
Now, Nic comes in and says that a whole big bunch of evil westies that don't shave yet get to take those spots. BAD.
Makes me sad. Keeps east guys poor. Easties are upset.
Following?
The young 'peckers' want the retiring 'peckers' spots. They don't want to give them to infiltrating, smirking, all-knowing westies.
USAPA is doing a wonderful job. Bravo again.
And it also looks like LOA 93 is not such a bad deal after all. What the company wants to cram down the pilots' collective throat is worse.
Following?
Cheers.

 

[Hope777]

1

 

[CallawayGolf]

How can you twist what I wrote into that gibberish?
What I said, and the meaning I meant to convey, was that after all the hits the east has taken, the ONLY thing left was the pecking order. As the older 'peckers' left, the younger ones would move up and fill those spots.
Following?
Now, Nic comes in and says that a whole big bunch of evil westies that don't shave yet get to take those spots. BAD.
Makes me sad. Keeps east guys poor. Easties are upset.
Following?
The young 'peckers' want the retiring 'peckers' spots. They don't want to give them to infiltrating, smirking, all-knowing westies.
USAPA is doing a wonderful job. Bravo again.
And it also looks like LOA 93 is not such a bad deal after all. What the company wants to cram down the pilots' collective throat is worse.
Following?
Cheers.

Setting aside your inflamed hyperbole about shaving, your rationale is not connected to reality. There is essentially a 2:1 ratio of east to west on the NIC. So for every three pilots that drop off the list (east, west, whatever), two east pilots move up and one west pilot moves up. What the east chooses to ignore is that the population and the size of the combined operation is bigger than it was pre-merger. A bigger population and more upgrade opportunities exist today for the east than prior to the merger. Should all of those expanded opportunities go exclusively to the east? The NIC says no that they should be afforded based on a ratio of east and west pilots based on their pre-merger seniority status on the separate lists. The NIC doesn’t steal east slots and give them to the west, but a DOH system would absolutely do that which is why the NIC is fair.

If you are looking for an unscrupulous, despotic, lying, cheating, and profligate organization that is incapable of accomplishing anything other than an illegal delay in negotiating an improved contract for all pilots, then USAPA is the organization for you. Anyone with a sense of honor, integrity, basic human decency and respect for the rule of law would not chose to be associated with this utterly corrupt crime syndicate that can only take money and produce nothing in return.

 

[Ames]

Doug would have to throw a LOT of money into the pot to even hope for chance at ratification. The negotiators would have to come up with an outside-the-box solution to eliminate the financial disadvantage that Nicolau foisted on the east pilot group, especially the f/os who would have upgraded at some point, but now are precluded from ever doing that.

Not only does the solution need to be novel, it somehow needs to be locked in stone so that future corporate transactions cannot undo the remedy.

It's a very tall order, and may not be possible at all. At any rate, Doug seems unwilling to even consider a solution that would fairly compensate the the pilots. Until that happens, he's stuck with a divided group that is interfering with his illusions of grandeur and personal profit that might come from another merger.

Or, Doug could do what he threatened to do in the first year of the "merger" and impose the "Hemenway letter" on the west, thus putting them on LOA93 and imposing one contract resulting in the finalization of the arbitrated seniority list. That has been in his back pocket and he can use it when it benefits him.

 

[Freebird]

Setting aside your inflamed hyperbole about shaving, your rationale is not connected to reality. There is essentially a 2:1 ratio of east to west on the NIC. So for every three pilots that drop off the list (east, west, whatever), two east pilots move up and one west pilot moves up. What the east chooses to ignore is that the population and the size of the combined operation is bigger than it was pre-merger. A bigger population and more upgrade opportunities exist today for the east than prior to the merger. Should all of those expanded opportunities go exclusively to the east? The NIC says no that they should be afforded based on a ratio of east and west pilots based on their pre-merger seniority status on the separate lists. The NIC doesn’t steal east slots and give them to the west, but a DOH system would absolutely do that which is why the NIC is fair.




If you are looking for an unscrupulous, despotic, lying, cheating, and profligate organization that is incapable of accomplishing anything other than an illegal delay in negotiating an improved contract for all pilots, then USAPA is the organization for you. Anyone with a sense of honor, integrity, basic human decency and respect for the rule of law would not chose to be associated with this utterly corrupt crime syndicate that can only take money and produce nothing in return.

Amen. The east AFOs are so blinded by GREED that they have no clue how to interpret logic or reason. They dont get it. Fortunately the court system does and its just a matter of time. They are too cowardly to put a contract up for a vote (to show their resolve) because Cleary and his hooligans will be proved wrong when it passes.

And USAPA hopes we merge with another carrier? I cant wait for a UAL or AA to squash their little dream of their 'career expectations'.

Maybe one of their few supporters on this board can explain why a Furloughed Pilot should return to line (as a Captain) ahead of an Active pilot. But dont expect a logical answer. They played their DOH card and Nicolau wasnt buying.

 

[end_of_alpa]

Amen. The east AFOs are so blinded by GREED that they have no clue how to interpret logic or reason. They dont get it. Fortunately the court system does and its just a matter of time. They are too cowardly to put a contract up for a vote (to show their resolve) because Cleary and his hooligans will be proved wrong when it passes.

And USAPA hopes we merge with another carrier? I cant wait for a UAL or AA to squash their little dream of their 'career expectations'.

Maybe one of their few supporters on this board can explain why a Furloughed Pilot should return to line (as a Captain) ahead of an Active pilot. But dont expect a logical answer. They played their DOH card and Nicolau wasnt buying.

I can definitely say why my 24 years with US Airways and of never being furloughed should or would be worth less than five years of a West pilot under Nicolau.

My day at US Airways is equal to your day.

That's self-evident and logical. Just not to you and yours.

That should do it.

 

[TheBadCat1313]

I can definitely say why my 24 years with US Airways and of never being furloughed should or would be worth less than five years of a West pilot under Nicolau.

My day at US Airways is equal to your day.

That's self-evident and logical. Just not to you and yours.

That should do it.

Actually, your PERCENTAGE of seniority IS equal to that of a five-year west pilot. Your number, by itself, means nothing. The guy who's #1000 at AA can hold widebody international. Not so at US. However, the guy who's 10% at AA can hold widebody international, and so can the 10% guy at US. Until you east folks start to think of your seniority in terms of percentages, you will never be able to reconcile yourself to the Nic, which WILL be the list for US pilots.

 

[end_of_alpa]

Again do you not understand who the parties are to this litigation. You point out Labor-management. This case has to do with labor-labor. Other wise there would never be a DFR case to cite.

I DO understand. YOUR side points out "labor-management" arbitrations. Jacobs arguing FAA is just one GREAT BIG example. This has to do with labor-labor, therefore you and I would be in agreement (what a surprize). DFR case occur all the time in management-labor cases where the union fails to represent one of it's member out of malice, for example. There are many DFR cases out there that prove this.

Seems, meaning nothing more than your opinion. Everyone else’s opinion is that the judge did it correctly. Did you hear any questions or concerns from the court on anything other than ripeness? Nope 7 minutes of uninterrupted babble from Seham. You guys tried to make the case that your days were the same as our days during N/M/A. The guy that we hired to make that decision disagreed. The three arbitrators that decided the NWA/DAL case also disagreed with your opinion. Just because it is your opinion does not make it a legitimate union objective.

Don't bring NWA/DAL into the picture. NOT because they had an ARBITRATIVE PROVISION in their VOTED ON AND RATIFIED CBA, but because Delta has always had the habit of bullying and undermining the minority carriers and pilots they absorbed into their fold by pushing them to the bottom. Western, Pan Am, NWA, and all the other airline pilots like Piedmont, SWA and AAA justify it. Entice them with pay raises or threaten them with job losses if they either give up their time in service or devalue their time. You wish us to sever our time with the company like one would sever a limb to make us compatable. If that is what YOU want us to do, then you need to stick to reading the Merchant of Venice if you want to talk greed.

So since someone said our time in service is worth less than your's I guess it must be ok. Ever heard of the My Lai massacre? You may be too young.

My opinon, SCOTUS will not look at or even take. Going further I don't think that the will of the majority is to even file with SCOTUS.

Only eliminate unrealistic career expectations.

Like your career "expectations" were that great anyway???
How many years have gone by so far in realizing your career expectations??
When do you think yuo WILL EVER realize your career expectations in the future???

Feel free to "opine". You won't change my mind. Logic and reason do not support your position.

 

[CallawayGolf]

My day at US Airways is equal to your day.

That's self-evident and logical. Just not to you and yours.

That should do it.

That's correct so far as both groups of pilots started working for the post-merger US Airways on 9/27/2005. Prior to that each group had its own seniority list that had to be merged into a single list using a logical methodology that met with ALPA merger policy and with the TA. Failing to work out their differences on combining the lists the issue, by policy, went to binding arbitration in which a dispassionate third-party arbitrator and two pilot neutrals were tasked with the integration process. The NIC award was the result.

*Nicolau and two pilot neutrals (not the west pilots) awarded it
*ALPA accepted it.
*Management accepted it
*The west pilots accepted it
*A federal judge upheld it
*The 9th circuit only mentioned it in a pejorative way towards Seham (“not terribly binding”)
*DL/NW used the same essential formula and have accepted their list.

So it doesn’t seem that your statement is correct that “just not you and yours” understand why the NIC is the legally binding and fairly derived seniority list. So that’s my list. How many dispassionate third-parties can name who advocate rejecting the NIC in support of DOH now that binding arbitration is over?

 

[end_of_alpa]

Actually, your PERCENTAGE of seniority IS equal to that of a five-year west pilot. Your number, by itself, means nothing. The guy who's #1000 at AA can hold widebody international. Not so at US. However, the guy who's 10% at AA can hold widebody international, and so can the 10% guy at US. Until you east folks start to think of your seniority in terms of percentages, you will never be able to reconcile yourself to the Nic, which WILL be the list for US pilots.

Your "percentage" means nothing, either. Your time doesn't match my time, so you need someone to justify my pound of flesh to balance it out. Merge lane arguments don't work with me. Please bark up another tree.

Time is a measurement we all have to use. Your "time" is running out, no matter what the courts say.

You wish to fit square pegs into round holes. Your "slicing' us up is a "trick" airline pilots have used for seventy-five years in ALPA. This is why you held out for the ALPA "carrot" of so called "arbitration". This is why Sully is left the profession. He had enough money to support himself thereby leaving the rest of us to duke it out.

You will NOT convince us. Keep suiing.

Oh, and one more point: the ninth is having to take a lot of time to sort this out. Don't expect a ruling anyTIME soon. The CLOCK will always continue to TICK.

 

[end_of_alpa]

That's correct so far as both groups of pilots started working for the post-merger US Airways on 9/27/2005. Prior to that each group had its own seniority list that had to be merged into a single list using a logical methodology that met with ALPA merger policy and with the TA. Failing to work out their differences on combining the lists the issue, by policy, went to binding arbitration in which a dispassionate third-party arbitrator and two pilot neutrals were tasked with the integration process. The NIC award was the result.

*Nicolau and two pilot neutrals (not the west pilots) awarded it
*ALPA accepted it.
*Management accepted it
*The west pilots accepted it
*A federal judge upheld it
*The 9th circuit only mentioned it in a pejorative way towards Seham (“not terribly binding”)
*DL/NW used the same essential formula and have accepted their list.

So it doesn’t seem that your statement is correct that “just not you and yours” understand why the NIC is the legally binding and fairly derived seniority list. So that’s my list. How many dispassionate third-parties can name who advocate rejecting the NIC in support of DOH now that binding arbitration is over?

No CBA, no VOTE. How you gonna keep me from crossing the picket line?

Answer: you won't.

I will not sacrifice my TIME for your wishes. PERIOD. As I said, I have just as many strong that you do. Strike and see what happens.

They can't order me to vote OR to not cross.

Winner: company. Nicolau means the end of our careers.

You can't convince me. The courts can't order me. The Company, listen carefully, won't PAY me.

We can't walk arm in arm as unionist if you cut off my legs.

Ergo, Good luck and see you on the flight line.

Happy Easter.