US Pilots Labor Discussion 3/1- STAY ON TOPIC AND OBSERVE THE RULES

[Richard]

New Month New Thread--

As a reminder, we no longer edit posts--one remark which violates the rules gets the whole post deleted.

Also, NO PERSONAL COMMENTS/ATTACKS/REMARKS/INSULTS. Comment on the POSTS not the POSTERS.
The cornfield is getting a bit crowded.

 

[veritasaequitas]

New ALPA Stance

 

[veritasaequitas]

New ALPA Stance

Captain Prater, head of ALPA, is a pilot for Continental Airlines. During The USAirways, America West merger seniority issues, there was an ALPA pilot "neutral" from Continental Airlines and United Airlines watching the hen house. To back this up the VP of ALPA, Paul Rice who happens to be a United Airlines pilot, was responsible for the Rice committee, to oversee the USAirways, America West (hen house) pilot arbitration results.

At the time of the USAirway, America West seniority situation, it was being mentioned in many news sources that USAirways could very possibly have a merger with United ( No longer the case).

Change of heart and policy on seniorty issues, NIMBY.

 

[BoeingBoy]

First, ALPA can take any "stance" they want but I can guarantee that there won't be a national seniority list that operates like the "stance" in my lifetime because of that one little word "negotiated". First, no management is going to negotiate anything that will force them to hire a TOS pilot, maybe straight to the left seat on the first bid after being hired, when they can hire a pilot off the street or from express/corporate/whatever at probation pay. Second, few if any pilot groups will want to negotiate language that lets new hires jump ahead of junior pilots already on their list. As if that's not enough, third, no company is going to increase it's costs as this would do when the low cost carriers aren't subject to the same criteria.

Now, as for the conspiracy theories - let's have the link or quote to prove that Prater or Rice hand picked the pilot neutrals and not your fellow pilots on the MC committees. What was it you said...something about a book with no bibliography? No believability without facts to back statements up?

Jim

 

[Metroyet]

New ALPA Stance

You guys made ALPA a "smoking hole" remember? Why do you all still obsess over other pilots' union? You created USAPA, and you get to LIVE with USAPA.

 

[EastUS]

Second, few if any pilot groups will want to negotiate language that lets new hires jump ahead of junior pilots already on their list.

No comment required.

 

[veritasaequitas]

First, ALPA can take any "stance" they want but I can guarantee that there won't be a national seniority list that operates like the "stance" in my lifetime because of that one little word "negotiated". First, no management is going to negotiate anything that will force them to hire a TOS pilot, maybe straight to the left seat on the first bid after being hired, when they can hire a pilot off the street or from express/corporate/whatever at probation pay. Second, few if any pilot groups will want to negotiate language that lets new hires jump ahead of junior pilots already on their list. As if that's not enough, third, no company is going to increase it's costs as this would do when the low cost carriers aren't subject to the same criteria.

Now, as for the conspiracy theories - let's have the link or quote to prove that Prater or Rice hand picked the pilot neutrals and not your fellow pilots on the MC committees. What was it you said...something about a book with no bibliography? No believability without facts to back statements up?

Jim

1 This will only be effective during a Continental, United scenario. ALPA will suddenly change their position "again" after a Continental, United union. Then the merger policy of ALPA will mysteriously change again.

2 The MC chairmen were hand picked by ALPA, along with the neutrals. Bibliographies are mysteriously needed now from some posters who have never offerd them in the past.

 

[BoeingBoy]

Bibliographies are mysteriously needed now from some posters who have never offerd them in the past.

You don't have the url for USAPA's site or Wings. I can give you the link but you still have to log on. As I said, it's spelled out in the LOA's and TA.

Jim

 

[Al Legheny]

1 This will only be effective during a Continental, United scenario. ALPA will suddenly change their position "again" after a Continental, United union. Then the merger policy of ALPA will mysteriously change again.

2 The MC chairmen were hand picked by ALPA, along with the neutrals. Bibliographies are mysteriously needed now from some posters who have never offerd them in the past.

Merger Policy at ALPA can change at the whim of the executive counsel. It can change at USAPA too but only by a vote of the membership.

 

[cleardirect]

Merger Policy at ALPA can change at the whim of the executive counsel. It can change at USAPA too but only by a vote of the membership.

How did that EVP elimination work out for USAPA? Looks like it was the west membership along with some thinking or unhappy with Cleary east pilots decided that one.

 

[Freighterguynow]

Looks like it was the west membership along with some thinking or unhappy with Cleary east pilots decided that one.

Yup, a regular 953 pilot Tsunami - can the recall be far off ?

Too bad goat man didn't win PHX, I was really hoping for that one.

 

[BoeingBoy]

Yup, a regular 953 pilot Tsunami - can the recall be far off ?

If - and I repeat IF - that was the number of votes for keeping the EVP position, than a recall may be far off or right around the corner (and if it comes to that it'll be mildly interesting to see how the BPR would handle a recall resolution). Sounds like apathy is setting in pretty quickly - come to work, fly - go home, let the union make the decisions - if half or less of the members voted. Isn't that how the concessions got ratified - by 25-30% of the pilots voting for them?

As for Cleary specifically, it'll probably come down to which side can rally the larger minority of members - the true believers who support him and his ideas or those who want him out. It is somewhat ironic that it only took a couple of years to go from "voting - what a concept" to "I don't care enough to vote" for many members.

Jim

 

[cleardirect]

Yup, a regular 953 pilot Tsunami - can the recall be far off ?

Too bad goat man didn't win PHX, I was really hoping for that one.

Well to be correct it was 983 no’s to USAPA’s 953 yes‘s. How is that majority working for you now?

In order to eliminate the EVP position USAPA went all in on this vote. You have to ask yourself why? Why was it so important to Cleary to get rid of the EVP? They sent out many messages, had an FAQ telling people why it should go, even activated the P4P telling pilots to vote to get rid of it. But in the end they could only generate the same angry 1000 loyal blinded followers. Even that number is shrinking to less than 1000, 953 to be exact.

What was the message from USAPA?

The Board of Pilot Representatives (BPR) voted overwhelmingly during the January Board meeting in Charlotte to endorse this amendment, and the full resolution is available on the Elections page of the Web site.

The PILOTS overwhelmingly decided that the BPR was wrong to try and take something else from the pilots. Just to be clear, since this was a change to the C&BL they needed 2/3 of at least 50% to vote. Meaning that Cleary needed a minimum of 1792 pilots to vote of that 1194 had to vote yes, came up 241 short. He could not get that even after all of the work. This would have failed if zero had voted no.

USAPA is crumbling, support for Cleary is crumbling. Add to this in the near future the loss in the ninth and the snap back failure. Even that core 1000 will fall apart and begin to jump the Cleary titanic.

The good news is that 300 east pilot and 680 west pilots came together because we saw what Cleary was trying to do. Eventually it is going to be 3000 pilots against the 1000 hard core angry F/O club. When that happens we can move forward for the betterment of everyone instead of being stagnated by a small and shrinking group of selfish people that are demanding something that were never going to get or never entitled to.

No the goat man did not win. The west pilots are smarter than that. To bad the east can not say the same thing about your elected leaders.

 

[psw737]

Just wondering if anyone has heard anything regarding potential recalls this year? One would think with the retirements, duty/rest reg changes coming that something would have to happen at some point in the near future. I'm sick of being unemployed, would be nice to have something to look forward to.

 

[BoeingBoy]

duty/rest reg changes coming

I assume that until something final comes out all the carriers can do is plug in some of the potential changes to see how they would affect staffing needs. I doubt that any carrier would do anything concrete like recalling until they know what effect any changes would have. Changes with significant effects will almost surely have a phase in period or a period before compliance is required.

Retirements and other attrition (medical, etc) will have an effect. Can't say much about the West side since I don't know the makeup of the West pilot group or general hiring/recalls/furlough tendencies very well, but the East is known to put off recalls until the operation starts to fall apart. It happened after the '91 and the '02 furloughs - attrition after the furloughs just reduced the number of jobs until they were literally short of pilots all the time. Then they'd recall everyone that wanted to come back, hire pilots and train like mad to catch up.

I hate to say it, but my guess is that given the economic climate they'll run as lean an operation as possible employee-wise, and only recall when they have to. That'll possibly be sooner on the East side given what I presume is a much higher rate of attrition (much higher but still talking about small numbers).

Jim