"US Airways flight attendants spoke up - and face trial"

[flybynite]

The more I read about this case, the more pissed off I get.

Which isn't good.

It's really getting under my skin. And I think it should get under everyone's skin too.

And the reason is because the Captain abdicated his responsibility to the F/O. It may have been the F/O's leg to fly but it was the Captain's plane.

And apparently the pilots at America West don't respect their F/A's.

Yes, I said it. And I'll say it again.....this pilot didn't respect his flight attendants. And to top it off...he's a bully.

Now ya'll can go off on me all you want.....but I stand by this assessment.

 

[NiceLandingCaptain]

The more I read about this case, the more pissed off I get.

Which isn't good.

It's really getting under my skin. And I think it should get under everyone's skin too.

And the reason is because the Captain abdicated his responsibility to the F/O. It may have been the F/O's leg to fly but it was the Captain's plane.

And apparently the pilots at America West don't respect their F/A's.

Yes, I said it. And I'll say it again.....this pilot didn't respect his flight attendants. And to top it off...he's a bully.

Now ya'll can go off on me all you want.....but I stand by this assessment.

Please, you are jumping to a conclusion before you have heard both sides of this story. There is much more to it than what you have read. Unfortunately, it is a case of he-said, she-said and one of the two sides cannot defend what is being written, except in court.

As far as your other conclusions about bullies and respect, well, you are wrong there too.

Are you (or y'all....LOL) open minded enough to change your opinion should the facts of the incident be fully revealed?

 

[sharktooth]

Please, you are jumping to a conclusion before you have heard both sides of this story. There is much more to it than what you have read. Unfortunately, it is a case of he-said, she-said and one of the two sides cannot defend what is being written, except in court.

"he-said, she-said"

Was there "ice" on the flying surfaces or not?

The FAs say yes.
The push crew says yes
The FO, whose ego could have gotten in his way, says "might have been".
No one in a position to know has come forward to say, "there was no ice".

What seems to be the issue that would cause you to deny the existence of ice? Were you there?

It seems quite possible the FAs saved the passengers a needless off airport excursion, if not their lives, with an admitted, "white lie".

If you wish to argue the much narrowed concern over a defamation issue, then, please, bring up relevant topics germane to that particular issue and quit trying to confuse with and conflate other, and, IMO, more meaningful issues.

Under the issue of "embarrassing" a flight deck crew into doing their job, the FAs won and are heroic. As to the issue of defamation, a court will decide.

 

[nic4us]

The more I read about this case, the more pissed off I get.

Which isn't good.

It's really getting under my skin. And I think it should get under everyone's skin too.

And the reason is because the Captain abdicated his responsibility to the F/O. It may have been the F/O's leg to fly but it was the Captain's plane.

And apparently the pilots at America West don't respect their F/A's.

Yes, I said it. And I'll say it again.....this pilot didn't respect his flight attendants. And to top it off...he's a bully.

Now ya'll can go off on me all you want.....but I stand by this assessment.

You are jumping to conclusions that are based on speculation that is simply not true. Which isn't good.

The facts of the matter are that the aircrcaft was de-iced, and it was the Captain who made the decision to de-ice the A/C.

This Captain was not a bully, more likely he was overzealous in his attempt to be "laid back". But in the end it was his decision to make and he made that decision based on all the ridiculous circumstances at the time.

The pilots at America West have great respect for the F/A's we work with, but remember, respect is a two way street. Explain to me how, from any of the fuzy details in this story, that the F/A's showed any respect for the Captain and F/O.

 

[N965VJ]

<SNIP> Trust me - there is SO much more to this - I could go on for pages -

<SNIP> There is much more to it than what you have read.

Do tell.

 

[sharktooth]

Explain to me how, from any of the fuzy details in this story, that the F/A's showed any respect for the Captain and F/O.

They brought the "ice on the wings" to the attention of the FO. When he did not respond in an appropriate manner, they went to the Captain, who also seemed to blow them off. They went back to the Captain, invoking a lie about the "passenger" and the cockpit crew finally responded in a professional manner.

and, what is this "respect" you reference? Is that ghetto talk? Just be professional. It is only necessary that one respect the job and not necessarily the individual. Are you saying they almost did not de-ice because the FO got his feelings hurt? You are kidding, right?

 

[lildutchgrl]

It drives me crazy that flight attendants are represented by a union, but the union files a grievance to get the company to pay for legal fees instead of truly representing the 3 flight attendants and paying their legal fees. This happens all the time. F/A gets hurts, company denies their claim, F/A has to hire attorney to get paid, AFA does nothing to help. Why pay union dues if they don't help you when you really need help? As far as I am concerned, AFA represents you as a F/A, so they should be the ones helping out these 3 crewmembers being sued by the pilot.

 

[Jetsetter2Ord]

It just amazes me as a FA, we are always told we are the FD's eyes and ears....so do I now need to have my FD sign a waiver, that I will not be sued anytime I now bring to their attention any issue that I feel may be brought to their attention?

Maybe I should also have the FD sign a waiver that while protecting them as they enter/exit the flight deck for a bathroom break, that if I should be injured/killed while performing my duty to protect them, that my estate can take legal action against them for putting me at risk?

I think the FAs did what we are trained to do...they should not be sued for doing what we are trained..and a white lie..saved lives. Maybe the FAs should have asked one of the passengers if they see Ice/snow on the wing? A witness of any passenger on that flight might be beneficial to the case?

JMHO

 

[700UW]

There are laws on the books that prevent unions from spending money, if the FAs were working for the FA on union business then they AFA would be obligated to pay for it, otherwise they cant.

 

[NAPAUS]

:down:

Are west based FAs trained on de-icing procedures? What happens if they don't like the thread on a tire? It's my understanding that a entire east cabin crew was fired for not liking the tire thread.

:down: How idiotic. Remember Air Florida? Remember the MANY other ice on the wing incidents of other carriers. This is one of the reasons why CRM was developed. Cocky pilots often ignore the complaints of cabin crew and passengers. AWA pilots have a history of CRAZY actions and misjudgment- remember MIA and the two drunk PROFESSIONAL pilots. Hardly good judgement on their parts. The f/as should be applauded and supported by Dougie and his idiots in tempe. What a mess of an airline... one cluster &$8% after another. God help UsaiRways.

 

[nic4us]

and, what is this "respect" you reference? Is that ghetto talk? Just be professional. It is only necessary that one respect the job and not necessarily the individual. Are you saying they almost did not de-ice because the FO got his feelings hurt? You are kidding, right?

My reference to "respect" was in direct reply to Flybynight's acusation that the "pilots at America West do not RESPECT their F/As".

I agree one should only have to respect the job and not necessarily the individual. But it helps to consider the individual.

Something that may not be understood is that applying de-ice fluid to an airplane actually deteriorates its preformance. This is of course prefered to the diminished preformance of having ice adhering to the airplane, but measureabley less favorable than flying a clean aircraft.

So what I am speculating is that the pilots almost did not de-ice because the airplane did not require it. The pilots changed their mind and de-iced, not because they believed there was a physical presence of ice on the airplane, but that de-icing was the most expeditious way of placating a cabin crew, who may or may not have been acting professionally. That after such a large issue had been made as to wether or not there was ice on the airplane, that the best course of action was to have the airplane de-iced.

Further, I am speculating that F/As, especially those who have worked in F/A training, who feel that they know more about cold weather operations than the combined knowledge of two pilots, might just get their feelings hurt when they are told otherwise. If this hypothetical F/A then sought retribution by seeking the discipline of those pilots, well that would amount to harm and defamation.

This whole incident could have simply ended at the application of de-ice fluid but was pushed by which involved party?

 

[hp_fa]

AWA pilots have a history of CRAZY actions and misjudgment- remember MIA and the two drunk PROFESSIONAL pilots.

I could have agreed with most of your post, but this portion was, IMO, flame bait.

 

[galley princess]

I've been reading this thread with an increasing amount of uneasiness.

There are a lot of questions about this situation, but I have a few global ones. I am most interested in the response of AWA F/As.

Do you feel that you are respected by the pilots you fly with? I certainly feel that you have not been treated well by AWA management, and this kind of "pat you on the head and run along" stuff tends to be catching.

How much interaction with the flight deck do you actually have? As I understand it, you are not paired with the pilots on lines, so theoretically you could have three sets of pilots in one day? I know from United F/as that they often have no idea who's "up there".

Do they brief you at the beginning of your trip? Do they use phrases like "if you see something, hear something, someone looks suspicious to you . . .etc. Let me know and we'll work on taking care of it."?

The thing is, East pilots come in all types, there are one or two I have really despised, however, I never thought for one moment that if I, along with two other flight attendants went to them and said "Hey Joe, can you take a look at the wings, we see ice and we're worried about it" that I would be blown off. In fact, it's the opposite. East pilots generally excel at CRM and bend over backwards to try to create a professional environment. I say this as someone who worked for another once premier carrier where Sky Gods reigned. US East pilots were a nice change. Now, there is a marked difference. We all stay together. You may be "family" for four days. It tends to make everybody try to get along. Getting on and off crew vans, climbing stairs with bags because the lousy 9 hour overnight hotel is a motel, being begged to go get food, this all humanizes us and usually fosters CRM.

If this thread has done anything for me it's to make me believe that being linked with the pilots is something that I prefer to keep.

However, if AWA pilots are from a different mindset and we actually do merge this airline, I suggest they gird their loins. Starvation and dehydration await pilots that discount the concerns of flight attendants.
And I tend to believe that a lot will suddenly get "SICK" if they don't feel safe.

 

[ableoneable]

I've been reading this thread with an increasing amount of uneasiness.

How much interaction with the flight deck do you actually have? As I understand it, you are not paired with the pilots on lines, so theoretically you could have three sets of pilots in one day? I know from United F/as that they often have no idea who's "up there".

Do they brief you at the beginning of your trip? Do they use phrases like "if you see something, hear something, someone looks suspicious to you . . .etc. Let me know and we'll work on taking care of it."?

No marriage of the schedules at all. It is not unusual for pilots to do a turn with two different cabin crews, nor is it unusual for FAs to do a turn with two different FD crews. (For instance FAs can fly PHX-JFK-PHX as a turn while pilots can not.)

With three to five legs (different cabin crew on every leg) a day, and factoring in at least one or two bag drags with 50 minute turns, it is not unusual (speaking as a pilot) to arrive at the airplane in the middle of the boarding process.

The language in the FOM is clearly written with East pairing practices in mind. (A "crew briefing" for all crewmembers on the "first day the crew is together" does not reflect reality on the west.)

I try talk to all three FAs but this often involves a face to face with only the first. I can usually talk to both of the other two on the interphone prior to departure but one of the three is occasionally in the middle of the cabin somewhere and is unreachable. (Add an inbound delay, a MX issue, PAX issue etc. and the time left to have a pow wow decreases proportionally.)

My briefings therefor trend toward the short; "Hi, my name is XXX, call us anytime with any concern and don't let the sterile cockpit phase of flight deter you in the least from calling us for anything. Do you have any questions/concerns/comments? Do any of you need anything to eat?"

 

[sharktooth]

Something that may not be understood is that applying de-ice fluid to an airplane actually deteriorates its preformance. This is of course prefered to the diminished preformance of having ice adhering to the airplane, but measureabley less favorable than flying a clean aircraft.

You are correct. I fail to understand your comment.

Ok, so you are not an airline pilot.