"US Airways flight attendants spoke up - and face trial"

[nic4us]

As with most stories you read about airlines, this article barely resembles the facts of what actually happened.

A few points if you read between the lines.

Both pilots were violated by the FAA but later exonerated. i.e. They were right.

The A/C was indeed de-iced. So what infraction did the pilots commit, failure to comply with F/A instructions on A/C operation?

I agree that CRM is an essential safety tool, but as the facts to this story reveal themselves we will learn this is not about safety.

 

[Dignity]

after reading this story today, only affirms my belief regardless..Flight Attendants are the eyes and ears of what may be happening outside the cockpit..(something they may not necessarily be aware of). to me, its very important to take any safety concern very seriously.

I would only hope this incident does not cause anyone in the future, to second thought a safety concern having a fear they may be sued in the amount of millions.

I am literally at a loss of words otherwise, its unbelieveable to me this is going to court.

I believe the Flight Attendants did the right thing by speaking up.

 

[hp_fa]

I have a few thoughts that I will share...

I don't condone the lie. But I also wonder what the FA's were to do if they really though it was a flight safety issue. We don't know any of the conversation(s) that took place from the time the crew met in the hotel lobby until the time that the problem became a problem.

Every year the FA's had CRM with the pilots to prevent these types of problems. What happened here to cause the breakdown?

How did the FAA manage to not "prove" the issue when a totally independent irregularity report was apparently filed? A lack of a gate photograph or video?

The company should step up and pay the FA's legal expenses. It is possible that the FA's actions kept the flight from become far more of a financial nightmare for the company and, other than the one lie, I have heard of no reason how the FA's had any motive other than flight safety to report and then deal with the frost or ice on the wings.

 

[sharktooth]

The A/C was indeed de-iced. So what infraction did the pilots commit, failure to comply with F/A instructions on A/C operation?

So, if you showed up at an airport to fly and were inebriated, and someone stopped you just before you pushed back, then you would be "right" and everything would be alright? Those two drunken pilots in FLL were "right"?

 

[signals]

Well this is new to me. I always thought if the weather was below freezing, all a/cs get de-iced. It's unfortunate that the fas went over the pilot's head, bruising his feelings and forcing him to demand monetary compensation.

It seems like a real frivolous lawsuit in the long run, but then again we are a litigation nation and feelings that are bruised are worth something

 

[Old Guy]

On the East side maintenance,we have always had an "inside hot line". This report goes to our union safety man, company QA, and the Chief inspector. The concerns are reviewed by all three parties. And an answer is given back to the filer and FAA. If a report is given directly to the FAA, they have to act.With the " in house hot line " , the concerns are reviewed by the Flight safety Rep, QA, and the Chief Inspector. Only if there is a violation is the FAA called in with the findings.

In this case the Feds were contacted. They have to act. If this was investigated in house first , the FAA would not have been informed until after the fact. The A/C did get deiced. So no findings. But an in house would have been brought to the Flight Safety, Pilot / Flight Attendant. It would have been ironed out there with out the FAA. As far as I know (on the East side) we have all been through a safety re-sorce management classes. The supervisor was the one that got the FAA on the horn. That got the FAA into the picture. I am not trying to pick on any body here. The Flight Attendants did their job , but the white lie got in the way. Along with the Suervisor who got the FAA into the picture to soon. I have no idea how AWA took care of safety issues. But it did get under the Pilots skin. Why didn't take it to his union Rep for settlement ? Why didn't the union back him?

 

[luvthe9]

Remember , it PAYS more to de-ice

 

[E-TRONS]

My one question is this. Why was the crew so reluctant to have their aircraft de-iced? Two trucks can shoot the wings clean in about 5 minutes (been there and done that personally). That is a very small period of time to spend on the pad to ensure the airworthiness of the aircraft. Perhaps the Captain was feeling the need to exert his authority that day? Only he knows why :huh: .

Frost on a wing is serious business especially for rear engined aircraft like the MD-80 series. Thats why little tassles were installed on the top of the wings, directly inline with the engines. If the tassle was frozen down then you had to deice that portion of the wing. This was something that was (supposed) to be checked routinely.

F/As: As far as tire treads go, even when the treads are about gone there are still 26 plies of material remaining. Maintenance has defined guidelines that ensure tires are replaced when it becomes necessary. BTW, I have seen "new" tires loose their entire tread-cap and knock the gear doors and flaps all to heck, all the while remaining inflated.

Kudos to the cabin crew for their insistance

 

[N965VJ]

Apparently, the FO also tried to sue for emotional distress.

I’m wondering if he felt the distress was great enough to file a lawsuit, if he removed himself from flight duties, and sought help from any of the assistance programs available to him.

 

[nycbusdriver]

This whole issue is one of the weirdest I've seen posted here.

Some of it doesn't add up. It would be nice to have the whole story, but that is unlikely to happen.

 

[nic4us]

So, if you showed up at an airport to fly and were inebriated, and someone stopped you just before you pushed back, then you would be "right" and everything would be alright? Those two drunken pilots in FLL were "right"?

of course not.

All I am saying is this article barley scratches the surface of what happened.

For instance I do not believe the F/O admitted that there was a small patch of contamination,as the article states. I believe the F/O simply admitted that it is theoretically possible that there could have been some contamination on some part of the A/C that he was unable to inspect during his pre-flighrt, i.e. the upper surface of the elevator perhaps.

So, when faced with the dilema of what appears to be a clean A/C, an F/A insisting it be de-iced, and the F/O saying " I do not know boss, looks clean to me, but could be something we do not know about". The Captain made a decsion and had the A/C de-iced.

Yes, I am pretty certain the article got this wrong and the Captain made the decision, not the F/O, not the F/A and that decision was "right".

 

[nycbusdriver]

I was thinking the same thing only Idon't know enough about precedures to make an intelligent comment.

Being familiar with the procedures and the vagaries of crew dynamics, I am convinced there are big pieces to the puzzle that have not surfaced here.

With all of this negative press coming after a huge positive I would think US would get this crew in a room, read them the riot act, make everyone whole financially and have them sign a non disclosure and move on.

That would take innovative, proactive thinking on the part of Tempe. That also is not likely to occur.

 

[signals]

Ca-ca-nental pilots hardly ever de-ice...they just delay or cancel their flights. In my area everybody laughs about the Continental delays and cancellations in bad weather. They won't take-off or land unless the runway is bare pavement! Tough feat in really bad weather in my area.

When I worked the runways snow removal, we knew we would be kept busy when a Continental flight came in. No matter what, there was always a tower call that Continental reported a 'hard brake'(might have been 'brake hard') situation, causing other pilots to refuse to land until the runway is snow-free...which it was, since other jets had landed before them without a tower report.

I hate driving in inclement weather, but I am trained to do so in my area. Often times you see tractor-trailers with southern plates driving like maniacs and usually see them jack-knifed a few miles up the road. This happens over and over again, and I doubt south drivers aren't pros at their job.

I'm not saying pilots from warm weather are any less pros in bad weather than their northern counterparts, but maybe some press their luck when it comes to things that they may consider minor. Perhaps these pilots had flown before with a 'little' ice on their wings and did a great job at taking off and landing.

Lets not forget that before that jet went down in the Potomac, de-icing wasn't an issue...or so it seems :huh:

Interesting Article

 

[Dorf]

Interesting Article

I have flown out of Montreal and Toronto, and am amazed at how efficient they are at de-icing aircraft. I guess when you do it 9 months out of the year you get really good at it! LOL

 

[sharktooth]

For instance I do not believe the F/O admitted that there was a small patch of contamination,as the article states. I believe the F/O simply admitted that it is theoretically possible that there could have been some contamination on some part of the A/C that he was unable to inspect during his pre-flighrt, i.e. the upper surface of the elevator perhaps.

Not to belabor a point.

If some five year old said there was ice on the wings, then I would check it out, without question, Captain or FO. Show me. It is way too easy to miss things and backup is always appreciated. Any pilot who thinks otherwise is, IMHO, unsafe.

As an issue, likely the FAs saw ice on top of the wings and not the elevator as their normal field of view is rather restricted, they cannot see the top of an elevator (most aircraft).

I take issue with the lack of adequate response of the cockpit crew to (likely) valid airworthiness questions from the cabin crew. I am amazed the cockpit crew could not seem to verify allegations of ice, but, as has been stated, perhaps details are missing from the story. This all could have been avoided had the Captain utilized Piney's H.E.A.T. Blowing off someone's concerns rarely results in satisfaction for anyone.