:down: United should just go ahead and die and stop dragging the rest of the industry with them. Can't fund their pensions, thats crap ! The pension board should have said if you can't afford to fund them you need to just close the doors. When is the Chapter 11 going to end? next century? <_<
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United Agrees To Give $1.5 Billion Note To P B G C
- Thread starter FWAAA
- Start date
767jetz,
I don't work for UAL, I'm aboard one of the other Titanics still afloat.
Whatever your Mechanics do is all right by me, after all I am forced to belong to a Union that never saw a set of concessions it couldn't get behind.
As far as specificity in proposals:
a) Support Sen. Isaksons' proposal and have UAL withdraw the Sect.1113 motion to vacate the pensions and the agreement for their takeover with the PBGC; and,
B) Take the 25 years to fully pay the existing obligations and then contractually committ to negotiate new pensions with the various Unions following emergence; and,
c) Require that UAL legally committs to their reasonable best efforts in ensuring a bump in the PBGC maximums for pension coverage; and,
d) Fight like hell, using all means necessary, to ensure that Congress signs off on funding those increases.
I don't work for UAL, I'm aboard one of the other Titanics still afloat.
Whatever your Mechanics do is all right by me, after all I am forced to belong to a Union that never saw a set of concessions it couldn't get behind.
As far as specificity in proposals:
a) Support Sen. Isaksons' proposal and have UAL withdraw the Sect.1113 motion to vacate the pensions and the agreement for their takeover with the PBGC; and,
B) Take the 25 years to fully pay the existing obligations and then contractually committ to negotiate new pensions with the various Unions following emergence; and,
c) Require that UAL legally committs to their reasonable best efforts in ensuring a bump in the PBGC maximums for pension coverage; and,
d) Fight like hell, using all means necessary, to ensure that Congress signs off on funding those increases.
AA, just like UA, lost 2 planes on 9/11 when the Arab hijackers crashed them. Even though AA is in pi$$ poor financial shape, they are NOT in bankruptcy, they are paying their pensions which are 80% funded, they are paying all their obligations, and they are cash flow positive. A long string of management blunders (avolar, shuttle by United, dehubbing MIA, etc.) combined with the Summer of 2000 fiasco with it's related effects, record high oil prices, and low fares in addition to the residual effects of 9/11(higher security costs) have put UA where it is today.Fly said:
I started one a while back. I don't count on anything from AA (something I learned from my EAL days). And your right, UA really did not have a "hub" in MIA it was more like a large focus city with service to most of the major South American capitals. They picked it up from the remains of Pan Am.Fly said:
Fly said:
Fly,
Unlike others on this board, I actually see further Legacy carnage should UAL and U fold up shop.
While a reduction in industry capacity means increasing the average revenue per ASM, the remaining legacies will face a huge vacuum they cannot fill due the lack access to reasonable rates on long-term capital. Nature abhors a vacuum, the spaces you vacate will be cheaply filled by the LCCs due to their ability to access the capital markets quickly and on better terms.
If you guys fail, it means that the rest of us either vote in more concessions sooner or follow you out the door.
Good Luck.
MCI transplant
Veteran
- Jun 4, 2003
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<_< "Summer of 2000 fiasco"! Are you refurring to us???? Signed: You know who!!!!aafsc said:
MCI transplant
Veteran
- Jun 4, 2003
- 5,311
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<_< Thank You! Let's get it stright!!!!aafsc said:MCI my friend, I would refer to you all as the " Spring 2001 fiasco."
[post="266753"][/post]
LGA Fleet Service
Veteran
Fly said:
He means "Depeaking" Miami, the "rolling hub" concept.
spacewaitress
Senior
- Aug 27, 2002
- 468
- 0
Tilton could have gone to the employees, over and over and over, stated his case and done what it takes to get collaboration and cooperation and good will from the employees.
You say that the management has changed. That may be true, but the culture has not. It's confrontation from day one.
We are a service business and all he's doing is counting beans and forcing it down everyones throat. That's not the way to get the employees behind you. He has ignored his workers and in the process alienated everyone worse than any CEO previous. Speacial times take special efforts...and not just in doing it from the corner office. We're a people business and he should have come to the people.
And showing a little leadership would've been a good start. Like dumping the suite in the Four Seasons, the 24 hour limo, and getting in there with the people that make this thing work and getting his hands dirty with the "unwashed masses" as someone on this board has called us.
He has shown a complete lack of understanding of the 99% of what this business is about...people.
So he makes a backroom deal with the PBGC to the tune of 1.5 billion dollars when he could've been coming up with solutions with the unions. He might have actually been WORKING with the people that make the difference here. Instead, he dictates and then throws it in all our faces and lies publicly through Jean Medina that it's the unions that aren't willing to find solutions. Now what sort of sensitivity does that show to the people that make up this business.
I realize that you are insulated behind your cockpit door (maybe you stick your head out to say bye) but the fact is we deal with those folks daily and make them comfortable and happy. That is the business (that we have known) that they tell us to do and yet they disrespect in every way they run this airline. You get your ass out with the fraking people and get the momentum going your way.
You meet the people who work for you where they are and you build trust, respect, and a team. All he has done is make pronouncements and dictated terms and create inertia and hostility. Take a look at Herb Kelleher. That's the way you run a people business.
Ualdriver and maybe you 767 can discount that, but that is what this business is about. He should be out there everyday convincing us and getting us on his side. Had he done that from day one, I think as I have always thought about this airline, that he would be on his way to tapping into the enourmous but stifled good will of the great people of this airline. Instead, he rules from an ivory tower, just like they have before him. Management changed, culture did not. Still as dysfunctional and confrontational as ever. If he's such a leader then let him get out there and lead people, and not just push paper and numbers.
You say that the management has changed. That may be true, but the culture has not. It's confrontation from day one.
We are a service business and all he's doing is counting beans and forcing it down everyones throat. That's not the way to get the employees behind you. He has ignored his workers and in the process alienated everyone worse than any CEO previous. Speacial times take special efforts...and not just in doing it from the corner office. We're a people business and he should have come to the people.
And showing a little leadership would've been a good start. Like dumping the suite in the Four Seasons, the 24 hour limo, and getting in there with the people that make this thing work and getting his hands dirty with the "unwashed masses" as someone on this board has called us.
He has shown a complete lack of understanding of the 99% of what this business is about...people.
So he makes a backroom deal with the PBGC to the tune of 1.5 billion dollars when he could've been coming up with solutions with the unions. He might have actually been WORKING with the people that make the difference here. Instead, he dictates and then throws it in all our faces and lies publicly through Jean Medina that it's the unions that aren't willing to find solutions. Now what sort of sensitivity does that show to the people that make up this business.
I realize that you are insulated behind your cockpit door (maybe you stick your head out to say bye) but the fact is we deal with those folks daily and make them comfortable and happy. That is the business (that we have known) that they tell us to do and yet they disrespect in every way they run this airline. You get your ass out with the fraking people and get the momentum going your way.
You meet the people who work for you where they are and you build trust, respect, and a team. All he has done is make pronouncements and dictated terms and create inertia and hostility. Take a look at Herb Kelleher. That's the way you run a people business.
Ualdriver and maybe you 767 can discount that, but that is what this business is about. He should be out there everyday convincing us and getting us on his side. Had he done that from day one, I think as I have always thought about this airline, that he would be on his way to tapping into the enourmous but stifled good will of the great people of this airline. Instead, he rules from an ivory tower, just like they have before him. Management changed, culture did not. Still as dysfunctional and confrontational as ever. If he's such a leader then let him get out there and lead people, and not just push paper and numbers.
spacewaitress
Senior
- Aug 27, 2002
- 468
- 0
A little introspection may be needed Fly...you seem to be morphing into a fish.Fly said:
I disagree.
He knew from the day he took the job that he would have to drastically cut costs. That includes labor costs -- pay, benefits and work rules. That is guaranteed to piss off the employees, no matter what.
The unions and employees are going to continue vilifying and pillorying the execs no matter what, unless someone waltzes in and announces raises for all while we are in bankruptcy, which is not going to happen. Anyone in senior management positions will draw the ire of the employees because of what needs to be done to save this place, and the employees will respond bitterly. It's the UA way; it's part of the culture. And it's human nature. Spending countless hours and huge amounts of energy in a futile attempt to try to "convince" employees to "get on board" is pointless. It is a waste of time mollycoddling employees who will be pissed off anyways.
Instead, a CEO should make it clear that while it will be painful, the reality is simply that things are going to get tough around here if we are to survive. That is the reality of the situation. If you want to stick around and hope for better days, you are welcome to do so. If you don't like it, look elsewhere for employment.
Group hugs won't raise pay, nor will they make employees facing massive paycuts any less unhappy.
He knew from the day he took the job that he would have to drastically cut costs. That includes labor costs -- pay, benefits and work rules. That is guaranteed to piss off the employees, no matter what.
The unions and employees are going to continue vilifying and pillorying the execs no matter what, unless someone waltzes in and announces raises for all while we are in bankruptcy, which is not going to happen. Anyone in senior management positions will draw the ire of the employees because of what needs to be done to save this place, and the employees will respond bitterly. It's the UA way; it's part of the culture. And it's human nature. Spending countless hours and huge amounts of energy in a futile attempt to try to "convince" employees to "get on board" is pointless. It is a waste of time mollycoddling employees who will be pissed off anyways.
Instead, a CEO should make it clear that while it will be painful, the reality is simply that things are going to get tough around here if we are to survive. That is the reality of the situation. If you want to stick around and hope for better days, you are welcome to do so. If you don't like it, look elsewhere for employment.
Group hugs won't raise pay, nor will they make employees facing massive paycuts any less unhappy.
By the way, I have no problems with his perks and pay. A little obscene, maybe. But he said "If you want me to work there, I demand this," and apparently someone thought he was worth it. Good on him.
If other employees are willing to stick around while their pay continues to get slashed, that's their problem, not his.
If other employees are willing to stick around while their pay continues to get slashed, that's their problem, not his.
