United Agrees To Give $1.5 Billion Note To P B G C

[ualdriver]

Spacewaitress-

I agree wholeheartedly with Bear96 and 767.

What you write is all well and good, but you really didn't answer 767's question. What you're having us believe is that if Tilton was out there with a smile on his face, shaking hands, patting people on the back, or doing whatever you think "goodwill" is (and he does do this, by the way), that all of a sudden AMFA, the AFA, and the IAM would be like, "OK, we're going to go along with these paycuts and the loss of our pensions because I know Tilton's a nice guy and I now realize this is bitter medicine but I'm willing to take it." Bull! Bull! Bull! And you know it.

"And showing a little leadership would've been a good start. Like dumping the suite in the Four Seasons, the 24 hour limo........."

I agree about the limo and the Four Seasons when he first came onboard. If I were King, I probably would have demanded an inexpensive condo for my family and a '98 Ford Taurus until I got settled, just for "appearance." But get his hands dirty? What do you want the guy to do ? Go out there and sling drinks? Get out there and load bags? The guys works CONSTANTLY. The two times he's been on my flight, he came down early to the aircraft to answer questions and pat people on the back, and thank us, literally. But then he sat down and worked the entire flight home. What specifically do you want from the guy? Do you know what I want from him rather than a pat on the back? I already know I do a good job and I don't need anyone to tell me that. I want his a$$ spending at least 12 hours a day, 7 days a week, managing the steps necessary to get us out of bankruptcy in ONE PIECE as a competitive entity. Outside of that, I don't care what he does.

In my opinion, there is NOTHING that Tilton can do to build "good will and trust," and do what it is NECESSARY to exit bankruptcy and keep people such as yourself happy. ABSOLUTELY NOTHING. No matter what Tilton does, he will be villified by the unions, the press, and the media for doing what EVERY union leader knows is absolutely necessary to exit bankruptcy despite the sabre rattling (which makes it look like they're doing something for their members.)

So I guess the question goes back out there. What SPECIFICALLY should Tilton have done to make everyone happy and think he's a great CEO AND provide the cuts necessary to exit bankruptcy? Maybe if he shows up at the next employee gathering with a bottle of wild turkey in one hand, patting people on the back with the other hand, dressed up like your favorite KISS member everyone will think he's really cool and a great CEO?

 

[uafa21]

Driver - You always take up for Tilton. You ask what could he do?

1. He could give up his pension as well. HOW can you ask everyone else to give theirs up and still keep yours. This is total crap. He doesn't work that hard.
2. He could have increased fares. You say we'll lose passengers. If your hauling at a loss what's the difference.
3. He could have fired present Ua management that doesn't have a clue. What are some of the old cronies doing at Ua.
4. He could have saved millons on not starting Ted and just reconfigured planes with the Ua logo. Ted was for the purpose of competing against Frontier. We had the advantage. We cut our own fares, how STUPID was that.
5. He could have found ways to cut cost without cutting pensions.
6. He could have been more truthful. Evertime we gave, he said this was the last. He HAD NO business plan for the government loan. He still has no business plan. What are all of these financial geniueses at Ua doing? BS.
7. He could have reacted faster. Hell we lost billions and billons before any reaction was taken. You can't keep letting water out of the dam if none is flowing in any good business person knows that.

There were a lot of actions that could have been taken prior. But no. He didn't want to p**S off employees. Look what he's done now. The company is basically in ruins and the employees are very happy. It will be years before this company can turn around unless some other entity comes up with funds and their way of doing business.

 

[Bear96]

Driver - You always take up for Tilton. You ask what could he do?

1. He could give up his pension as well. HOW can you ask everyone else to give theirs up and still keep yours. This is total crap. He doesn't work that hard.

How do you know how hard he works? Been shadowing him around at WHQ? I would bet he works much harder than the average F/A -- longer hours, and more intensely when he is at work.

And why SHOULD he give up his pension? He doesn't have to! A compensation package was promised him; if they change it against his will, he'll simply saw "Screw y'all" and leave. You have the same choice. Except they know most employees won't go anywhere. Tilton on the other hand can go play golf at his multi-million dollar retirement home and probably have a much easier and less stressful life than he is having now.

6. He could have been more truthful. Evertime we gave, he said this was the last.

Really? I don't remember any promises that every concession round came with a promise that that was the last one. To the contrary, the January concessions very clearly came with the warning that "pensions will be 'dealt with' later." What did you think that meant? Could you post something to show me wrong?

He HAD NO business plan for the government loan. He still has no business plan. What are all of these financial geniueses at Ua doing? BS.

So because they don't drop by your house and share their confidential plan with you, there isn't a "plan"?

(By the way -- here's a hint -- a huge part of the "plan" is to get labor costs as low as possible. Didn't you notice?)

7. He could have reacted faster. Hell we lost billions and billons before any reaction was taken. ...There were a lot of actions that could have been taken prior. But no.

First, he didn't even get here until well after many billions were already gone.

Second, you are saying previous CEOs should have started tackling labor and other costs even BEFORE UA was losing money? It's a tough sell to get certain employees to see the light even now that we are in dire straits. You think people would have been amenable to cost cutting even when UA was profitable?

 

[767jetz]

uafa21,

I asked for reasonable suggestions. None of what you listed is based on reality. Here's why:

1- What would giving up his pension do? It certainly wouldn’t save UA $2 Billion Dollars. His compensation is a drop in the bucket. Besides, he is being compensated for what he gave up to come here in the first place. Take it away and he leaves. Then a new guy comes in and has to do exactly what Tilton is doing, so we can oust him as well. It makes no sense.

2- You can’t just increase fares. Loads will drop, market share goes away, we make no more money than now. The key is to hold onto the market share and gradually raise fares and manage revenue incrementally. Blame Jet Blue, North West, and Southwest for the low fares… not Tilton.

3- He did quite a bit of house cleaning. And you are still not happy. See what we mean? There are a few key players who remain, but you can’t fire EVERYONE and not scare away any potential financial support away. Again… not rational. My guess is the remainder will quietly leave after BK exit.

4- Ted is one thing that is working for UA. And the cost of converting aircraft was minute. Airplanes need paint from time to time anyway. Certain heavy checks require the interiors to be removed anyway. It gives us one more product to offer on certain leisure routes. And from all accounts it is currently making money. Attend any union meetings lately?

5- What Bear96 said.
6- Again what Bear96 said.

A pat on the back isn't going to help. No matter what Tilton does, labor will be unhappy with the cuts. It's just the way it goes. If you get someone else in the executive suite, they will have another compensation package you don't like, and will waste a years time coming to the same conclusions that Tilton did. Then we will have a new person the unions can villify.

It's hard work, and the results are painful for everyone. There's no denying that. But the best thing for all of us would be getting out of BK and rebuilding. Look at Air Canada for example. They came out of reorganization last September and just placed a huge order for new aircraft. That will mean advancement and employment for many. Also keep in mind places like US Air. Do you think they have it any better than us? No way! Yes things could be better here. But they could also be alot worse.

 

[uafa21]

Bear - You know what? A pension was promised to me as well. It's in my contract. A contract Titlon wishes to break. He doesn't want to let his go but he sure doesn't mind sending mine down the river.

 

[Fly]

He'll just leave if you take it away.....and NO ONE will replace him. The End!

You can just leave too, but the blow to United will probably not make as much impact.

 

[Bear96]

Bear - You know what? A pension was promised to me as well. It's in my contract. A contract Titlon wishes to break. He doesn't want to let his go but he sure doesn't mind sending mine down the river.

[post="266885"][/post]​

And???

Unfortunately, the people in charge have decided that they can no longer afford to pay our pensions. It sucks; it's unfair; and it shouldn't be that way. But it is.

Tilton also makes a lot more money than we do. So do the pilots, by the way. Certain jobs have to offer certain compensation to attract qualified people. Other jobs don't have to offer quite as much, and they will still have people lined up to fill them. Guess which category Flight Attendant is in?

Fortunately, the PBGC will protect most of our pensions.

If you can't deal with losing your pension, feel free to find a job that will provide you with the compensation you feel you deserve.

If Tilton's pension is taken away, he will have the same choice.

The people on top, come out ahead. Maybe it "shouldn't" be that way, but it is. If I were you, I would adivse making the career changes necessary so you can get a job that isn't at the bottom of the pecking order, if you can't deal with it. (At least that's my plan.)

BTW, I think a year or two ago UA DID "take away" the contractual pensions of some ex-big wigs like Goodwin and a few other ex-senior managers.

OR

Are you saying UA is lying about being in deep financial doo-doo right now, and that they can keep all the pension liabilities they have and still be competitive in the aviation marketplace going forward? This whole bankruptcy thing is a big sham?

Or maybe you are saying Tilton took this job because he enjoys making low-level employee's lives miserable?

 

[767jetz]

Bear - You know what? A pension was promised to me as well. It's in my contract. A contract Titlon wishes to break. He doesn't want to let his go but he sure doesn't mind sending mine down the river.

[post="266885"][/post]​

The cost of his pension is a drop in the bucket compard to everyone else's.

Let's review in basic round numbers:

Tilton's pension cost - in the millions.

Employee's pension cost - in the BILLIONS.

Yes it does suck. But it is also our reality.

 

[JAMAKE1]

I want his a$$ spending at least 12 hours a day, 7 days a week, managing the steps necessary to get us out of bankruptcy in ONE PIECE as a competitive entity.

there is NOTHING that Tilton can do to build "good will and trust," and do what it is NECESSARY to exit bankruptcy and keep people such as yourself happy. ABSOLUTELY NOTHING. No matter what Tilton does, he will be villified by the unions, the press, and the media for doing what EVERY union leader knows is absolutely necessary to exit bankruptcy

[post="266810"][/post]​

How refreshing to hear a voice of reason....

 

[ualdriver]

You have to remember, concerning Tilton's pension and management pensions:
1. If it makes you happy, many management people, both retired and still here are going to lose their butts with this whole pension thing too. The typical management person is going to lose a heck of a lot more, as a percentage of total pension income, than the typical AFA or IAM member.

2. You guys want talented, experienced management to come and run our airline, but you don't wait to pay for them. Great. Potential management candidates know that to. We got Tilton, good or bad. In order to lure him away to run this multi-billion dollar company from his cushy Chevron corner office, we had to cover the pension he had accumulated over at Chevron or he wouldn't have come here. No one is going to give their pension up at another company to come here. Would you? We'd still be looking for a CEO if we were unwilling to pay him a seemingly 'big' salary and cover his costs for coming over here. It's pretty simple.

 

[uafa21]

I quess i'm one of the few not wanting to give the company back everything we've acheived. Sorry for that.

I remember getting a letter from Goodwin not too long after 9/11. The letter where he spoke of the bleeding and how it needed to stop. What truth that letter held.

Most everyone was outraged. They couldn't stand hearing the truth. Since then the company has lost billions and billions of dollars. Who's to blame? All of us and none of us. No-one wanted to give anything. No-one wanted to hear news that was negetive. It took a BK to wake everyone up. look where we are now.

My problem is that the company knew in 2000, before 9/11, that they were in trouble. 9/11 pushed it dramatically. In an industry like ours you can't have a downturn, not when everthing is in contract and a promised retirement. Someone somewhere has to pay the price. Management was too weak to ask theunions and the unions were too suborn to give.

Now we are left with a situation where large corporate leasing companies, banks, bond holders, and municipalities holding billions and billions of Ua debt have a vested interest to see that the company continues to operate and repay. They are probably the ones calling the shots. I don't know. I do know that I've invested many years with this company, taken very little sick time, not done anything stupid that caused the company to lose any money and still try to do a good job with no complaints.

In January I voted no to any wage giveback. I wanted the pensions to be a part of the vote. They were not addressed, because if you take little steps to take away it will pass. Now the company wants me to give up my pension at least future pension as I will have a right to what I am vested into less three years. If I work till 65 I will get a small % of what I would have received. The papers and articles keep speaking of a company contributed 401K, funny thing is I have not heard anything about it. I'm not supposed to be bitter? I'm sure all of us need their jobs. But at what cost is enough, enough.

 

[Bear96]

I quess i'm one of the few not wanting to give the company back everything we've acheived. Sorry for that.

And you think some people here want to give back everything we've achieved?

Of course not. The question is, Can it reasonably be stopped?

I have concluded that no, it can't be, given the current state of the airline and of the industry, and made career plans accordingly. Apparently you have concluded differently. That's fine. If you think constant vilification of the CEO-du-jour and a strike will change the situation, have at it.

I'm not supposed to be bitter?

No, no one is "supposed" to be bitter. It's a terrible way to go through life. But you have choices. Maybe not very pleasant ones, but choices nonetheless. I would choose one that helps get rid of the bitterness.

I'm sure all of us need their jobs. But at what cost is enough, enough.

[post="267128"][/post]​

Exactly! Is it worth it to end up being bitter AND poorly paid? Talk about cost -- I would pay a lot to avoid that. Enough IS enough!

It seems like going forward, UA employees have three choices:

1) Make plans to get the heck out, and do what they need to do in order to move into a field where they will be fairly compensated and valued for their labor.

2) Stick with UA, get behind the effort of working towards a post-BK brighter tomorrow with management realizing that they are doing what they like to do despite management antics, and accept that going foward they will be paid even less than they are today.

3) Stick with UA, fighting and kicking and screaming all the way, maybe strike and shut the place down (note this option still ends up with no pension, and no UA income at all), but more likely simply end up being bitter doing a job they hate, and still being paid even less than they are today.

Good luck to you in making your choice.

 

[JAMAKE1]

uafa21:

Your points are very valid. I can totally appreciate the point of reference that you are coming from. As I mentioned in a previous post on a different thread, having our workrules cut, our pay reduced, and our pensions gutted, DOES indeed suck.

But let me tell you something: I opted for the 4-year voluntary furlough in September 2003 and 6 months into my furlough, the state in which I live, gutted all unemployment extensions (I had planned on benefits for a year). I was going to school and suddenly found myself having to scramble to find a job. I live in the Bay Area, which was hit hard when the tech bubble burst. I had romantasized about how easy it would be for me to find another job when I took the furlough. Guess, what? I found myself competing against 50 other people for ONE position....and these were restaurant jobs!!

As I have also mentioned in previous posts, United hasn't "DONE" anything to us. The company has been hemmoraging since 9/11 and is insolvent. The market place has changed dramatically. At this point, I have concluded that it's better to MINIMIZE my losses. If you compare our now second concessionary agreement to what others have in the market place, we still have it pretty good. We have provisions in place to make up our paycuts (ability to opt, purser or A-stew pay, ability to fly international, duty free sales, etc.), we've maintained 5 paid holidays (a perk that no other carrier enjoys), we preserved many of our workrules, etc. Yes we have to work harder and longer for the same pay, but there is still earnings potential. I can tell you, for most of us, it will not be easy to make a lateral transition to a job that pays the same amount and offers the same benefits. Especially without a recent college education.

I don't know, perhaps I come from a different place because in my heart, I don't feel like United owes me anything. I have never felt that a pension was "promised" to me. There are no guarantees in life. Market forces have changed and while I don't like it, I have to accept the realities of the market place today.

I have been recalled back to work (2 years early) and have had to weigh the pros and cons of going back. For me, at the end of the day, what we have is still better than having to start over. It's workable.

Digging our heels in and striking in order to make a statement isn't going to save our penions. It's going to be more destructive.

 

[Bob Owens]

What are all of these financial geniueses at Ua doing? BS.

[post="266837"][/post]​

The same thing as the ones at all the other legacies are doing MAKING A LOT OF MONEY FOR THEMSELVES BY CONVINCING YOU TO WORK FOR LESS!!

No matter what they will walk away with million$. The longer they can convince you to work for less, the more they make.

 

[spacewaitress]

Digging our heels in and striking in order to make a statement isn't going to save our penions. It's going to be more destructive.

[post="267169"][/post]​

I wonder how many even care at this point or see that as the issue?