NewHampshire Black Bears
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Addressed to eolosen;
ERIC, Whats yout "take" on this ???
NH/BB''s
ERIC, Whats yout "take" on this ???
NH/BB''s
Union Employees will never be satisfied with anything
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AAObserver
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Why then did Carty write a letter of apology to the union leaders for the non-disclosure? If it was "none of our business", would the CEO need to apologize for not telling us?
Why then did Carty write a letter of apology to the union leaders for the non-disclosure? If it was "none of our business", would the CEO need to apologize for not telling us?
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That''s simple. Because the unions were whining like mad babies about it.
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On 4/19/2003 7:03:10 AM AAObserver wrote:
The problem with unions is that they allow the "I''m free to work for AA no matter how lousy I may be at my job or how bad my attitude may be"
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On 4/19/2003 7:03:10 AM AAObserver wrote:
The problem with unions is that they allow the "I''m free to work for AA no matter how lousy I may be at my job or how bad my attitude may be"
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AAObserver
You are right on the mark with that statement.
However you are clueless on just about everything
else you have stated.
There are the union radicals on one end and then
there is your types on the other end of the spectrum.
5% on both sides screwing it up for the remaining 95%
who are moderates.
I am Mistified!
Eolesen;
Maybe you would have more time if you didnt do all that extra driving to save 75 cents?
KCFlyer asks;
What happens if a mechanic helps a ramper throw bags?
It depends on the circumstances. On 9-11 I peronally threw hundreds of bags. We (mechanics)even helped people load bags into cars. A while ago several mechanics signed the Fleet Service OT list and were called, they threw bags. I've picked up bags that have fallen off the belt loads of times while doing my walk around inspection. I was thanked, not grieved. The fact is despite rules that may exist when management is flexible and reasonable workers are usually the same.
What happens if a Supervisor helps a Ramper throw bags?
Ask a ramper. Probably nothing if its an emergency or other unusual event. I think the Supervisors would be the ones who would object the most to doing that work. The challenge was to find something in the M&R contract that is inhibitive to productivity. Dont ask me about other groups work rules, ask them. Our contract has specific wording allowing the company to cross utilize a mechanic.
UALFLYNHI;
As I understand it, no the judge is not required to implement anything,he can implement temporary measures, but the RLA says that the company can only impliment its last best offer prior to rejection. Since there was no give and take it should be easy to argue that the companys last best offer is the TA. They cant punish you by going for more than their last offer. That being the case why ratify it? There are two laws that come into play here, C-11 Bankruptcy and the RLA. If the company impliments their last best offer you are free to strike whenever it suits you. So why committ to six years when they cant offer you anything worse? Also a judge is not as likely as is claimed to abrogate an agreement. Many factors come into play here. First of all if the judge believes that the workers will strike then he will probably not abrogate the agreement that readily. Especially in the current enviornment where the creditors assetts are not worth that much. In this industry with all the new security requirements no airline can defeat a strike by a determined group of workers unless other workers for that carrier help them, thats why they are working so hard to get concessions in place before they resubmit S-1327.
I still say that anything, even abrogation of the contract by a judge is better than agreeing to massive concessions for six years. How much worse could the company actually make it and still expect to stay in business than what they are trying to force down our throats? Why give away our right to do it right back to them when the economy improves?
Maybe you would have more time if you didnt do all that extra driving to save 75 cents?
KCFlyer asks;
What happens if a mechanic helps a ramper throw bags?
It depends on the circumstances. On 9-11 I peronally threw hundreds of bags. We (mechanics)even helped people load bags into cars. A while ago several mechanics signed the Fleet Service OT list and were called, they threw bags. I've picked up bags that have fallen off the belt loads of times while doing my walk around inspection. I was thanked, not grieved. The fact is despite rules that may exist when management is flexible and reasonable workers are usually the same.
What happens if a Supervisor helps a Ramper throw bags?
Ask a ramper. Probably nothing if its an emergency or other unusual event. I think the Supervisors would be the ones who would object the most to doing that work. The challenge was to find something in the M&R contract that is inhibitive to productivity. Dont ask me about other groups work rules, ask them. Our contract has specific wording allowing the company to cross utilize a mechanic.
UALFLYNHI;
As I understand it, no the judge is not required to implement anything,he can implement temporary measures, but the RLA says that the company can only impliment its last best offer prior to rejection. Since there was no give and take it should be easy to argue that the companys last best offer is the TA. They cant punish you by going for more than their last offer. That being the case why ratify it? There are two laws that come into play here, C-11 Bankruptcy and the RLA. If the company impliments their last best offer you are free to strike whenever it suits you. So why committ to six years when they cant offer you anything worse? Also a judge is not as likely as is claimed to abrogate an agreement. Many factors come into play here. First of all if the judge believes that the workers will strike then he will probably not abrogate the agreement that readily. Especially in the current enviornment where the creditors assetts are not worth that much. In this industry with all the new security requirements no airline can defeat a strike by a determined group of workers unless other workers for that carrier help them, thats why they are working so hard to get concessions in place before they resubmit S-1327.
I still say that anything, even abrogation of the contract by a judge is better than agreeing to massive concessions for six years. How much worse could the company actually make it and still expect to stay in business than what they are trying to force down our throats? Why give away our right to do it right back to them when the economy improves?
Thats interesting because I think at least at UAL
we should vote hell no and see what happens.So the
judge implements changes sought by the company and
we strike I think people dont fully understand they do
have some leverage against UA and AA in this regards.
Faced with a strike do you think the creditors are simply
going to walk away from the hundreds of millions of dollars
they have already invested in UA for example? The assets of
this company dont amount to much anyway.I think they would
bargain enough to say these concessions will last for the normal
contract length.If AA files chap11 I think the company should be
put on notice all unions will strike if a 9 year deal is forced
upon the employees.Helping the company is one thing but the airlines
and the economy are in a slump that time will lead us out of.Nine
years is to long.
we should vote hell no and see what happens.So the
judge implements changes sought by the company and
we strike I think people dont fully understand they do
have some leverage against UA and AA in this regards.
Faced with a strike do you think the creditors are simply
going to walk away from the hundreds of millions of dollars
they have already invested in UA for example? The assets of
this company dont amount to much anyway.I think they would
bargain enough to say these concessions will last for the normal
contract length.If AA files chap11 I think the company should be
put on notice all unions will strike if a 9 year deal is forced
upon the employees.Helping the company is one thing but the airlines
and the economy are in a slump that time will lead us out of.Nine
years is to long.
spacewaitress
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On 4/18/2003 10:51:38 PM AAObserver wrote:
Give me a break. Enron and WorldCom execs hid billions of dollars to make their companies appear profitable. AA's legal (and generally accepted) retention bonuses have absolutely nothing in common with what happened at these two companies. If you think there is a correlation, you must not be very smart -- at all.
And I saw the Lou Dobbs piece you are talking about; it was nowhere near as dramatic as you are making it out to be.
Carty ought to just declare ch. 11 Sunday night, and let the unions fend for themselves against a bankruptcy judge. The bankruptcy judge wouldn't be nearly as kind as AA is currently being; the creditors would replace the current contracts with what makes business sense in today's economy, and you can bet it would be less than the proposed concessions.
You can bet the general public would have no sympathy either since the majority of them work in companies where hard work and the economy, not whining and seniority, dictate how much they are paid.
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On 4/18/2003 10:51:38 PM AAObserver wrote:
Give me a break. Enron and WorldCom execs hid billions of dollars to make their companies appear profitable. AA's legal (and generally accepted) retention bonuses have absolutely nothing in common with what happened at these two companies. If you think there is a correlation, you must not be very smart -- at all.
And I saw the Lou Dobbs piece you are talking about; it was nowhere near as dramatic as you are making it out to be.
Carty ought to just declare ch. 11 Sunday night, and let the unions fend for themselves against a bankruptcy judge. The bankruptcy judge wouldn't be nearly as kind as AA is currently being; the creditors would replace the current contracts with what makes business sense in today's economy, and you can bet it would be less than the proposed concessions.
You can bet the general public would have no sympathy either since the majority of them work in companies where hard work and the economy, not whining and seniority, dictate how much they are paid.
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Better reread what I wrote buddy, I never drew any correlation between Enron, Worldcom and AA. Stop putting words in my mouth.
As far as Moneyline's piece on the execs at AA. You need to take a good re-look at Mr. Dobb's face. He was incensed, and rightfully so, as his manner and words attest to.
You apparently have no sense of this industry. You expect this industry employs large numbers of 'stepford' stews who need to fall in line and 'get with the program.' Your program. Easy to say for a likely pencil pusher like you.
It is true that the industry must change, and labor must change with it. The reality, however, is that airline personel are a little more sophisticated than your average production line, single tasking cannery row automaton (no offense intended). For years the industry has been careful in hiring flight attendants who are bright, well educated, and worldly. If you expect a group of well intentioned (in this case) flight attendants to roll over while management gets caught with its hand in the cookie jar..then just get a clue of what unionism is about.
You have made it clear that you don't care about equity, justice and fair play. You would have the 'little people' of the world bend over and take it without a protest. The fact that unionism still has a relevant role to play (as evidenced in the airline industry) and in the process may in some ways have to remind commercial interests of its moral obligations to its workers (and other stakeholders, and even society in general) is of no account whatever to you. Uncontrolled Laissez Faire is the way you'd have it it seems.
Now...[deleted by moderator].
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On 4/19/2003 10:22:10 AM AAObserver wrote:
That''s simple. Because the unions were whining like mad babies about it.On 4/19/2003 10:22:10 AM AAObserver wrote:
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Why then did Carty write a letter of apology to the union leaders for the non-disclosure? If it was "none of our business", would the CEO need to apologize for not telling us?
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Why then did Carty write a letter of apology to the union leaders for the non-disclosure? If it was "none of our business", would the CEO need to apologize for not telling us?
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SO why blame the unions then? If management rewards the union for whining like babies, then they will whine again. If no reward, no whining. Who''s fault is this?
ONTHESTREET
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On 4/19/2003 7:03:10 AM AAObserver wrote:
You are not free, nor do you have a birthright to work for AA. Since they are the ones paying your salary,
end quote:
Ceo''s do not pay the salerys, the passengers do.
In this business CEO''s are a dime a dozen and come and go almost as frequently as the seasons. At any large airline the only people who are truly AA, DAL, US, UA etc. are the folks who actually spend their lives at the company. Most "employess" spend 30 plus years with the same airline. These multimillion CEO''s spend what.....Five years at most, maybe 10. Look at the "Leadership Talent" of the airlines in the last 20 years. With the exception of Herb at LUV I cannot think of a single one that had any longterm interest in the company they were running.
This issue strikes a sore spot with employees because of CEO''s like Wolf and others. Wolf spent around six years with US, but left with a 30 year pension, while the true 30 years employees were having their pension taken from them.
People have no problem with huge managment bonuses if they actually produce.....the problem comes when they receive large bonuses when the airline is losing millions. By that logic any pilot that screws up and crashes a plane 2 miles short of the runway, should be due a hefty bonus since he "Almost met his goal of a safe landing" Maybe bonuses for the flight attendant who only spills half a cup of coffee in your lap? Or how about a bonus for the mechanic who almost stopped the oil leak?
CEO''s are no different than the rest of the employees....if they don''t produce, they should be fired. Nothing chaps my arse more than to see a CEO run a company into the ground and then leave with his or her golden parachute while the lifetime employees have to deal with the mess he/she left behind.
By the way, I am putting myself up for one of those high paid CEO slots!!! I will only charge you 40 million and I guarantee that I can meet my bonusing goal of CH-7 within 4 years!!! Double the bonus if I can destroy your company in only 2 years!!!!!
On 4/19/2003 7:03:10 AM AAObserver wrote:
You are not free, nor do you have a birthright to work for AA. Since they are the ones paying your salary,
end quote:
Ceo''s do not pay the salerys, the passengers do.
In this business CEO''s are a dime a dozen and come and go almost as frequently as the seasons. At any large airline the only people who are truly AA, DAL, US, UA etc. are the folks who actually spend their lives at the company. Most "employess" spend 30 plus years with the same airline. These multimillion CEO''s spend what.....Five years at most, maybe 10. Look at the "Leadership Talent" of the airlines in the last 20 years. With the exception of Herb at LUV I cannot think of a single one that had any longterm interest in the company they were running.
This issue strikes a sore spot with employees because of CEO''s like Wolf and others. Wolf spent around six years with US, but left with a 30 year pension, while the true 30 years employees were having their pension taken from them.
People have no problem with huge managment bonuses if they actually produce.....the problem comes when they receive large bonuses when the airline is losing millions. By that logic any pilot that screws up and crashes a plane 2 miles short of the runway, should be due a hefty bonus since he "Almost met his goal of a safe landing" Maybe bonuses for the flight attendant who only spills half a cup of coffee in your lap? Or how about a bonus for the mechanic who almost stopped the oil leak?
CEO''s are no different than the rest of the employees....if they don''t produce, they should be fired. Nothing chaps my arse more than to see a CEO run a company into the ground and then leave with his or her golden parachute while the lifetime employees have to deal with the mess he/she left behind.
By the way, I am putting myself up for one of those high paid CEO slots!!! I will only charge you 40 million and I guarantee that I can meet my bonusing goal of CH-7 within 4 years!!! Double the bonus if I can destroy your company in only 2 years!!!!!
Your screen name says it all, you are an aa observer. I have no doubt that you are in a management position somewhere, and are easy to brain wash.
While what AA management has done is not illegal, it is morally repulseive. To hold a gun to the workers head and demand concessions, while they do nothing more than pay lip service to sharing in the pain is wrong. No matter which way you look at it it should be looked at in contempt.
As to SWA their Mechs make the same as we do within pennies, before the concessions.
Until you suffer the under poor management and are asked to contantly underwrite poor management decisions mind you own narrow minded business.
While what AA management has done is not illegal, it is morally repulseive. To hold a gun to the workers head and demand concessions, while they do nothing more than pay lip service to sharing in the pain is wrong. No matter which way you look at it it should be looked at in contempt.
As to SWA their Mechs make the same as we do within pennies, before the concessions.
Until you suffer the under poor management and are asked to contantly underwrite poor management decisions mind you own narrow minded business.
AAobserver I still can’t believe you had the huevos to post something so absurd.
Think about the term "retention bonus". What Management is saying they deserve more money to stay with an airline that is obviously headed to bankruptcy court. Why should Management make more money for a job their clearly not doing?
Instead of getting a retention bonus they should be getting a pink slip! After all isn’t that what you would do to a ‘Union Employee if he or she failed so miserably while doing their job?
Think about the term "retention bonus". What Management is saying they deserve more money to stay with an airline that is obviously headed to bankruptcy court. Why should Management make more money for a job their clearly not doing?
Instead of getting a retention bonus they should be getting a pink slip! After all isn’t that what you would do to a ‘Union Employee if he or she failed so miserably while doing their job?
jetsandprops
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Organzied labor has many times held a gun to mgmts head - - give me a raise or I will strike, the raise you will give me is less than the strike will cost...Was the retention plan a bad idea, yes. However, all share blame in the current situation. It is important to understand costs must be 7 to 10 percent less than revenues...this is a fact of life. AA has reasonable mgmt just like most other airlines. If everyone wants to point to WN mgmt being so good than they must be willing to work with their contracts which have decent wages but much better productivity. WN contracts = good pay but many fewer jobs.
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On 4/19/2003 5
17 PM F4ams wrote:
WE, the TWU, will never strike, we are gutless, and always have been. NOBODY is more aware of this than the COMPANY...As we say in the TWU..."Live to beg another day, Brother..."
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WE are not really the TWU, the dictator leaders are, they have no back-bone and thus we beg.On 4/19/2003 5
17 PM F4ams wrote:WE, the TWU, will never strike, we are gutless, and always have been. NOBODY is more aware of this than the COMPANY...As we say in the TWU..."Live to beg another day, Brother..."
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