Union Employees will never be satisfied with anything

[Boomer]

AAOBserver,

Since you know so much about Unions at American Airlines and you know so much about Union prevention of discipline at American Airlines: please tell me the win-loss ratio with respect to Arbitrations between the TWU and AA.

Please answer the question directly, as most of your argument is based on the premise that Unions prevent discipline being meted out at American Airlines.

If the Unions are such a powerful force, surely some objective record will support your contention.

 

[flydcoop]

eoleson,

I told you I believe in FULL DISCLOSURE.

I was hired by AA in June 1995.

My seniority date is 07Aug95 in BMAS/RES/SERO. I would have been topped out below $13/hr. under the "Long-Term Tragedy" (aka, the Long-term STRATEGY). Started as "1-800, where's my bag?" (BMAS).

I transferred to MIA as a gate agent 17MAr97. I was paid for training as I was a compAAny transfer.

Transferred to the ramp effective Nov1998. Worst time of my life at AA. BMAS Coordinator...an analyst/manager.

Hired by AA FLT SVC on 02Nov1999, the day before my 30th b-day. I was paid my level 2 MGR salary in training (this was at just under $28,000/yr).

Completed F/A training 30Mar00. My initial base was BOS domestic for 13 months.

Transferred to MIA/Dom 01Apr2001

Here I am, employee #******

Hope this is what you wanted,

Coop

 

[Oliver Stone''s Apprentice]

Well, at least you walk your talk. But I'd think twice about leaving your employee number on the web...

 

[Airline Crew Sched]

well miss cooper that was very brave of you to put your employee number out there but...be careful people can access alot about you with your employee number

 

[Bob Owens]

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On 4/20/2003 11:30:57 AM AAObserver wrote:

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Unions make it convenient for employees to sit around and whine because a)they don''t allow companies to do anything about subpar employees with bad attitudes, and B) they don''t allow companies to give raises or perks to the best employees with the best attitudes. In short, unions don''t give any motivation to employees to do a great job.

Unions do not make it easy, Show me where it does. Its not the job of unions to motivate, thats the job of management.

And Einstein, 99% of the American workforce doesn''t get retention bonuses for staying around until 2005. However, the vast majority of executive management teams DO get these types of bonuses. You don''t seem to grasp the fact that you are not as important as the executive team. Maybe if you had gotten your masters or doctorate and become a CEO of a major company you could get these bonuses, but you didn''t.

Not as important as management? I thought every employee was important. Do you mean to tell me that AA keeps employees on payroll that are not important? Who is responsible for the decisions that left this company unprepared for the economic downturn? The (unimportant)Pilots who flew the Airplanes, the mechanics who fix them, the flight attendants that serve and try to insure their safety or the managment that foolishly spent money the last 5 years?



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[flydcoop]

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On 4/21/2003 9:33:05 AM eolesen wrote:

Well, at least you walk your talk. But I''d think twice about leaving your employee number on the web...

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Copy that, eoleson...

I have edited my post and employee number now that at least one member of management (crew schedule) has verified who I am.

Don''t think I am full-on anti-management, there are managers I respect to no end in Miami.

I left management b/c I couldn''t stand the BS and I honestly missed dealing with paxs!

As a flight attendant, I don''t have the delusion that I should be paid as much as a pilot or CEO. I would just like to make a comfortable living without being eligible for food stamps. Is this so wrong?

I could bore you to death with the numbers I came up with the other day regarding what I made last year (well under $25,000) and what I would have made under this T/A (EEEK!)...I won''t. I''ll just say that based on the hourly cut and per diem reduction, it was well over 15.6%.

Along with NHBB, I agree that over-capacity is one of our big problems. I know that if this were addressed, I would definitely be furloughed but I''m OK with that (saddened but OK). I just want to be recalled to a leaner, meaner, and profitable airline.

Regarding the PR mess we are currently in...

Hey, don''t spit on my head and tell me it''s raining.

Coop

 

[Duditz]

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On 4/20/2003 155 PM spacewaitress wrote:

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On 4/20/2003 11:30:57 AM AAObserver wrote:
... You don''t seem to grasp the fact that you are not as important as the executive team. Maybe if you had gotten your masters or doctorate and become a CEO of a major company you could get these bonuses, but you didn''t.

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And you don''t seem to get the reality that all have equal value and dignity. That is what unionism is about.

Your worldview tells you that you are better or worse than the next person based on the temporal value of comparison. Unionism tells us we are all valuable and that collectively we can have a voice.


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"Value" is not an intrinsic quality of the object or person that is being valued. There can only be "value" relative to a need. You can be the best "person" in the world and still be of no value to me in a business sense. I will not pay 20 cents for a dozen of that which can be had for a dime.

 

[NewHampshire Black Bears]

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On 4/21/2003 10:42:04 AM flydcoop wrote:

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On 4/21/2003 9:33:05 AM eolesen wrote:

Well, at least you walk your talk. But I''d think twice about leaving your employee number on the web...

----------------​

Copy that, eoleson...

I have edited my post and employee number now that at least one member of management (crew schedule) has verified who I am.

Don''t think I am full-on anti-management, there are managers I respect to no end in Miami.

I left management b/c I couldn''t stand the BS and I honestly missed dealing with paxs!

As a flight attendant, I don''t have the delusion that I should be paid as much as a pilot or CEO. I would just like to make a comfortable living without being eligible for food stamps. Is this so wrong?

I could bore you to death with the numbers I came up with the other day regarding what I made last year (well under $25,000) and what I would have made under this T/A (EEEK!)...I won''t. I''ll just say that based on the hourly cut and per diem reduction, it was well over 15.6%.

Along with NHBB, I agree that over-capacity is one of our big problems. I know that if this were addressed, I would definitely be furloughed but I''m OK with that (saddened but OK). I just want to be recalled to a leaner, meaner, and profitable airline.

Regarding the PR mess we are currently in...

Hey, don''t spit on my head and tell me it''s raining.

Coop

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Hey coop;
It''s ALL about PRICIPLE.
Something you DEFINITELY know about !!!!!!!!

Good luck to you. You''ll do WELL in whatever you do.
One way or another, You''ll be back "flying the line" at AA.

Proud to call you --"UNION CO-WORKER" !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Regards, and Respect,

NH/BB''s

 

[AAObserver]

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On 4/21/2003 10:08:55 AM Duditz wrote:



"Value" is not an intrinsic quality of the object or person that is being valued. There can only be "value" relative to a need. You can be the best "person" in the world and still be of no value to me in a business sense. I will not pay 20 cents for a dozen of that which can be had for a dime.


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Exactly. The unions don''t seem to understand that while we are all equal as individuals, our business value is not equal.

 

[ART]

Let me rephrase that FULLY FUNDED

So you are saying that even when things were going to hell AA officers dreamed up a plan that they would be in their $$$$$$$ bunkers while we die on their behalf.

American Airlines officers and NOT the employees are to blame for this entire mess. They fund a GUARENTEED pension plan, while the labor groups are unsure if theirs will ever exist. The officers and NOT the employees are GUARENTEED after departure medical, dental, prescription plans, travel, LIFETIME Admirals Club membership in some cases and a ton of other benefits.

No concessions should be made by any labor group until their pension is secure as the executive group. If this means the 45+ plan is removed with “NOâ€￾ chance of AMR renewing it OR if the labor groups involved have theirs FUNDED and GUARENTEED, that’s great.
Mr. Carty, comment?

 

[stewbear]

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On 4/18/2003 5:23:33 PM AAObserver wrote:

I''ve watched this board for sometime and have gained alot of insite on how AA union employees think. Simply said, the posts on here are just more proof that unions are the single biggest reason the failure rate of major US airlines is so high.

The AA retention bonuses that the unions are so up in arms over are common at most large US corporations, especially failing companies which offer less upside than more stable companies. There was nothing criminal about these bonuses, yet union employees are so out of touch with the real business world that they can''t understand this. In fact, it sounds like all three unions are more worried about sticking it to management than they are about their own personal welfare.

The pension issue is also a non-issue; it''s made up of money that the executives have already earned, but deferred for tax reasons. It''s underfunded, and the execs will get a payout that is taxed to death and less than what they are actually owed.

Regardless, the bottom line on the executive compensation is that it is none of your business. You are the employEEs, not the employERs. The employERs hired you to do a job, and if you don''t like the working conditions or pay then leave. No one is holding a gun to your head forcing you to work for AA.

As for the union concessions, the fact of the matter is that your airline is going down the tubes, and todays market does not allow the same payscales that you had back in the late 90''s economic heyday. If you are going to get mad at anyone, get mad at the government for allowing the economy to degrade, or get mad at the 9/11 terrorists, or get mad at President Bush for going to war with Iraq. Don''t get mad at the management.

Actually, if you are going to get mad maybe you should be mad at your unions. If it weren''t for them, those of you who really do a great job could be rewarded based on your merit instead of watching less deserving employees make more money simply because they have been with the company longer. If I were an FA who worked my butt off but had to work with lazy FAs with terrible attitudes who were making more money than me I''d be mad as hell. That''s what being in a union does -- it rewards long-term mediocrity instead of rewarding employees who do the best job.

I''m sure now that AA''s execs have rescinded their bonuses, the unions still won''t be happy. They will find something else to gripe about and will probably drag AA right down the tubes alongside Eastern, PanAm, and the other former giants who were brought to their knees by whiny, self-centered unions.



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You''ve watched this board for sometime? What took a self absorbed type "A" like you to humble yourself to this arena? April 18th must have been the magical day that you Grand Master were going to give the world your 2 cents worth. Can anyone find me something to spend these 2 pennies on? Go back to your favorite room on aol...oh..they threw you out of that one too? hmm

 

[stewbear]

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On 4/18/2003 11:32:40 PM lstwhknight wrote:

Regardless, the bottom line on the executive compensation is that it is none of your business. You are the employEEs, not the employERs. The employERs hired you to do a job, and if you don''t like the working conditions or pay then leave. No one is holding a gun to your head forcing you to work for AA.

--------------------------------------------------Employees ARE the company,without them see how far your employers GET.As far as none of your business,God that is a DUMB statement.With thinking like that CEO''s at ERON hide away billions.But that would be fine in your eyes cause youre so above CHECKS and BALANCES.Ever notice how A large company WITHOUT a UNION tends to screw over it''s EMPLOYEES?Low pay no Benifits etc!Its a Trade off,The company Brings on itself by NOT being fair and above board with its Employees when they are non union.So For employees to even stand a chance to reap some of thier LIFETIME investment in a large company they need a UNION.As Compamies seem to like to cut good and bad employees before they reach retirement and can replace them with entry level pay new hires,and dump you in the street to start over after a 20 year investment with them.They use you and dump you,Good Business in your eyes.I have worked both sides non union and now union.Never will I work again as non union,after seeing 5 thousand get the boot and wages cut to 10hr and vacation cut to 1 week.Seeing lifetime hard working families go under losing thier homes,retirements and the management team walk away with millions.WAKE UP!!!You Think management really gives a crap about you?WRONG WRONG WRONG!!!You are easily replaced at half the cost.You Better stand together or fall one by one!

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AMEN BUDDY

 

[AAObserver]

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On 4/23/2003 12:23:02 AM stewbear wrote:


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You''ve watched this board for sometime? What took a self absorbed type "A" like you to humble yourself to this arena? April 18th must have been the magical day that you Grand Master were going to give the world your 2 cents worth. Can anyone find me something to spend these 2 pennies on? Go back to your favorite room on aol...oh..they threw you out of that one too? hmm

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If you want a truly good definition of "self absorbed" take a look at the AA unions not only now, but throughout history.

Of course, the standard response will be "it''s all management''s fault". Right.

 

[Airline Crew Sched]

seriously aaobserver what good is all the crap you say about unions getting you. I am pro management not union. It is not worth the time....they will vote how they see fit and the rest of the company will have to live with their vote and Cartys lies