Ual Mechs Vote No, Authorize Strike

[usairways_vote_NO]

[post="243812"][/post]​

You obviously don't understand how it works or are a fool... your post contains so much misinformation it rivals an infamous usa230pilot

For starters I suggest reading up more on the process before spouting off on something you have no clear understanding of at all.

Story

Section 1113 law considerations

Eastern nor Continental ever rejected the collective bargaining agreement pursuant to Section 1113 of the Code in their respective bankruptcy proceedings

Reconciling labor and bankruptcy law

U.S. Code

As far as your healthy continental and its 206 million dollar 4th quarter loss yes I am sure its all because of the wages they gave up way back then that they are where they are today, had nothing to do with running an airline with a viable plan and good management that wasn't ready to come blaming and begging to employees every time they found themselves in a bind due to their incompetence .

 

[Bob Owens]

Although I don't care much for the IAM, AMFA, or their members, I see where they are coming from on this. It's not as easy as "if you don't like it then quit." AMFA members have given (as we all have) and been outsourced to what avail? With all the cuts and changes that have been made UAL still had the second largest loss for the quarter.

It's tough when you see friends laid off, friends file for bankruptcy, or when you lose your house. It makes it even harder when you see an ineffective management group giving themselves large bonuses when you have been repeatedly raped over the last several years.

I support AMFA on this, and I will also support AFA should they choose to make a stand. If it kills UAL, so be it. If you folks think that this last round of concessions is the end of the race to the bottom you are deluding yourselves. Somebody has to say enough. I'm just sorry that it wasn't ALPA.

737

[post="243803"][/post]​

Its good to see that there are some pilots that live up to the reputation. Too bad we dont see more pilots like you here.

 

[Bob Owens]

ual747mech,Jan 30 2005, 08:29 PM]
You obviously don't understand how it works or a fool for thinking you can stop other management @other company from asking for concessions if they're in a dire financial situation. The last time an airline company got permission to abrogate a CBA they imposed a drastic wage and benefits cuts which amounted to 50-60% paycuts. A lot of employees quit and new employees took their place because they didn't have to recall laid off employees since there is no more union. That airline is still flying today and is one of the healthier company today.

Well there is a big difference between what airline workers were earning in 1983 and what they are earning today. As a matter of fact your compensation today when inflation is taken into account is already 50% less than it was then and lets not forget that in 1983 unemployment was in the double digits, the highest ever since the Great Depression.

Lets also not forget that the company that you are talking about went Bk twice and was headed for liquidation until Bethune took over, new unions came in and they changed their attitude towards labor.

Also there's not even a guarantee that we are allowed to strike since there is no contract or no union if the contract is abrogated(why would you need a union if the contract is abrogated or pay union dues if management can impose whatever they feel is necessary after they get the contract abrogated)


Wrong, even if the contract is abrogated the union is still there and according to the RLA they can strike, the most the judge can do is delay it but if the company changes term the RLA is clear, the workers can strike.

A lot of people don't understand that a company under bankruptcy protection has a lot of leverage.

No, the Judge has a lot of leverage and his purpose is to mitigate the creditors losses, if possible by saving the company. With unions standing up to the company maybe the Judge would abrogate the deal but how would that help the creditors? Read the law. More than likely he will tell the two groups to continue talking but if he abrogates then he is also freeing the workers to withdraw their labor. If he abrogates the contract then he can not stop them from striking-the RLA is clear and he does not have the right to make his own laws. He does not have the right to take the property of airline workers and give it to UAL, GE and other creditors. If he tries, the unions should simply ignore it and strike anyway.


Instead of Labor lets substitute fuel. Lets say that UAL has a contract with Exxon to pay $1/gallon for fuel. The contract extends till 2006. Now UAL goes into BK and they demand that they only want to pay 80 cents a gallon for fuel. Exxon gives in. Now a few months later UAL decides that in order to be profitable they can only pay 50 cents a gallon and tells Exxon that if they dont give them fuel at 50 cents a gallon that they are going to go to a Judge and have him abrogate the deal and force Exxon to sell fuel to UAL for 10 cents a gallon.

Under what statute would the Judge have the right to force Exxon to continue to provide fuel to UAL, at 10 cents a gallon? NONE. Contract abrogation frees both parties from the contract, not just the company. Exxons fuel is Exxons property, no contract-no obligation. Just because UAL is in BK it does not give them the right to take the property of others.

If a Judge abrogates the contract then there is no basis for the Judge to rule that the workers can not strike. No contract-no obligation.

 

[Borescope]

Is there a big market for Cabin cleaners out there?

[post="243662"][/post]​

The real question is, is there a market for pilots??

 

[DCT JVL]

I support AMFA on this, and I will also support AFA should they choose to make a stand.

[post="243803"][/post]​

I guess I'll ask again. What are you standing for?

More pay, better benefits? That ain't gonna happen, not in this scenario.

Are you hoping to punish those who annoy you so? You're not going to. They'll be fine when this shakes out.

By going on strike and killing UAL what do you achieve besides ruining the lives of every day UAL employees? Walking out isn't going to stop the next airline from asking for concessions when they need it. If you want management fixed, then fix it. Push the judge for an end to exclusivity and propose other options. Killing UAL solves nothing.

 

[Borescope]

Yup, reminds me of the Mechs support of the pilots in 1985.... :down:

[post="243799"][/post]​

You haven't learn yet have you. Once your in this business long enough you will understand. Next time you negoiate a contract (probably isn't going to happen) include a signing bonus for the mechs, FA's and others and we will all support you. Until then your on your own

 

[ual747mech]

Bob Owens and usairways vote no,

You two obviously don't know the difference between 1113 process and Section 6 of the RLA. Sure, we got 1113 as a process to slow down management going to court to ask for abrogation but that is not going to stop it. Section 6 on the other hand is a different matter altogether.

Q: What is Section 6 of the RLA?

A: Section 6 is the provision of the RLA which tells carrier and union how to start and continue collective bargaining to amend the applicable rates of pay, rules and working conditions. It places a duty on the parties to meet and bargain in response to the other side's "notice of intended change," that is, the "Section 6 notice."

Here's a link about 1113.

http://www.amfa9.org/waypoints/Documents/A...ection_1113.htm

We are under the 1113 process not Section 6 so understand the difference you fools.

 

[Bob Owens]

Bob Owens and usairways vote no,

You two obviously don't know the difference between 1113 process and Section 6 of the RLA. Sure, we got 1113 as a process to slow down management going to court to ask for abrogation but that is not going to stop it. Section 6 on the other hand is a different matter altogether.

Q: What is Section 6 of the RLA?

A: Section 6 is the provision of the RLA which tells carrier and union how to start and continue collective bargaining to amend the applicable rates of pay, rules and working conditions. It places a duty on the parties to meet and bargain in response to the other side's "notice of intended change," that is, the "Section 6 notice."

Here's a link about 1113.

http://www.amfa9.org/waypoints/Documents/A...ection_1113.htm

We are under the 1113 process not Section 6 so understand the difference you fools.

[post="243896"][/post]​

Who said anything about Sect 6?

Both laws apply, one is not exclusive of the other.

The only thing that stops airline workers from striking is the RLA, the RLA does so while maintaining the status quo. Once that condition is no longer in effect and wages have been changed unions are free to "Self Help", unless Congress imposed new terms, not a Judge.

 

[usairways_vote_NO]

Bob Owens and usairways vote no,

You two obviously don't know the difference between 1113 process and Section 6 of the RLA.

[post="243896"][/post]​

Why do you bring something up that doesn't even apply ? Are you trying to confuse the readers. This talk has nothing to do with Section 6. Though if you sign away on a contract while in bankruptcy it is binding till it is amendable. If the company does have your contract abrogated, installs their own terms you will be free to strike, you are still represented and company will still have to bargain under section 6(after coming out of bankruptcy) and most importantly you are not bound by a garbage contract forced on you under duress.

 

[ual747mech]

If the company does have your contract abrogated, installs their own terms you will be free to strike, you are still represented and company will still have to bargain under section 6(after coming out of bankruptcy)

Is that a fact or just your opinion? Give us some facts, under what laws or codes are you going by? I'd like to see what you will come up with, I'll be waiting.

 

[ual747mech]

Why do you bring something up that doesn't even apply ? Are you trying to confuse the readers. This talk has nothing to do with Section 6.

I'm just trying to tell you we're in a different circumstances here. We can only try to mitigate the damage unlike Section 6 negotiation which a lot of you fools seem to think is the same.

 

[UAL_TECH]

I'm just trying to tell you we're in a different circumstances here. We can only try to mitigate the damage unlike Section 6 negotiation which a lot of you fools seem to think is the same.

[post="243930"][/post]​

ual747mech,

At this point your objections are irrelevant.
We can’t turn the machines back on for a recount.
If you believe that the AMFA membership is too ignorant to make an informed decision, then maybe we shouldn’t be working on these big flying beer cans.

Take Care,
B) UT

Alea Iacta est... (the dice is cast)
Julius Ceasar, when crossing the rubicon and thus starting civil war
that effectively ended the Roman republic

 

[ual747mech]

ual747mech,

At this point your objections are irrelevant.
We can’t turn the machines back on for a recount.
If you believe that the AMFA membership is too ignorant to make an informed decision, then maybe we shouldn’t be working on these big flying beer cans.

Take Care,
B) UT

[post="243946"][/post]​

Maybe that's what I am trying to say. Ask your coworkers there where you work if they understand what they just voted on and why they voted the way they voted. You'd be surprised what they'll tell you. How can you tell me they're informed as we are when over half of the membership don't even go to the meetings. Hell, almost or about a 3rd of the membership didn't even vote from what I hear. I know of one who thought the deadline wasn't until the end of the day. Others told me they were going to vote no but they thought it was going to pass anyway. How many times have you heard that, "It's going to pass anyway" Just reading the post of other mechanics here tells me how much they know, a lot just shoot their lips without backing it up. I don't like the pilots either for what they did during the summer of hell but I don't blame them for that. They were just doing what they had to do to force management to give them what they were due. I think some pilots are arrogant but not all are like that. We tried to do the same thing but weren't as effective as them. It's funny, the mechanics who said full pay till the last are still here. I bet you the same loudmouths are still going to be here after the contract is abrogated.

 

[UAL_TECH]

Maybe that's what I am trying to say. Ask your coworkers there where you work if they understand what they just voted on and why they voted the way they voted. You'd be surprised what they'll tell you. How can you tell me they're informed as we are when over half of the membership don't even go to the meetings. Hell, almost or about a 3rd of the membership didn't even vote from what I hear. I know of one who thought the deadline wasn't until the end of the day. Others told me they were going to vote no but they thought it was going to pass anyway. How many times have you heard that, "It's going to pass anyway" Just reading the post of other mechanics here tells me how much they know, a lot just shoot their lips without backing it up. I don't like the pilots either for what they did during the summer of hell but I don't blame them for that. They were just doing what they had to do to force management to give them what they were due. I think some pilots are arrogant but not all are like that. We tried to do the same thing but weren't as effective as them. It's funny, the mechanics who said full pay till the last are still here. I bet you the same loudmouths are still going to be here after the contract is abrogated.

[post="243970"][/post]​

ual747mech,

Guess they should have voted then!!!
You should know I am not a ‘full pay till the last day’ ignoramus, but I believe that Kcabpilot has put it very plainly and to the point in His Post and that this rejection is a ‘no confidence’ vote for our management.

Furthermore, (if you have been paying attention) I am not ‘anti-pilot’ just ‘anti getting FU({ED’ by any group’ we are ‘all’ in this together (like it or not/or realize it or not).
If these loudmouths do not have the integrity to stand on their own two feet, then such is their lot. As for myself (as I can only speak for myself) I will not be subjugated into being a picket crosser, at ‘ANY’ cost!!!

Good Luck to us all as we are going to need it!

Take Care,
B) UT

 

[Baja4U]

ual747mech,

Guess they should have voted then!!!
You should know I am not a ‘full pay till the last day’ ignoramus, but I believe that Kcabpilot has put it very plainly and to the point in His Post and that this rejection is a ‘no confidence’ vote for our management.

Furthermore, (if you have been paying attention) I am not ‘anti-pilot’ just ‘anti getting FU({ED’ by any group’ we are ‘all’ in this together (like it or not/or realize it or not).
If these loudmouths do not have the integrity to stand on their own two feet, then such is their lot. As for myself (as I can only speak for myself) I will not be subjugated into being a picket crosser, at ‘ANY’ cost!!!

Good Luck to us all as we are going to need it!

Take Care,
B) UT

[post="243976"][/post]​

UT, Don't roll over like us spineless PUKES at US did !!! Hat's off to U guys,good luck, I wish I was over with U guys instead of being here with the SPINELESS ones at US. Take Care