Ual Mechs Vote No, Authorize Strike

[ual747mech]

ual747mech,

Guess they should have voted then!!!
You should know I am not a ‘full pay till the last day’ ignoramus, but I believe that Kcabpilot has put it very plainly and to the point in His Post and that this rejection is a ‘no confidence’ vote for our management. 

Furthermore, (if you have been paying attention) I am not ‘anti-pilot’ just ‘anti getting FU({ED’ by any group’  we are ‘all’ in this together (like it or not/or realize it or not). 
If these loudmouths do not have the integrity to stand on their own two feet, then such is their lot.  As for myself (as I can only speak for myself) I will not be subjugated into being a picket crosser, at ‘ANY’ cost!!!

Good Luck to us all as we are going to need it!

Take Care,
B) UT

[post="243976"][/post]​

First of all, I disagree with kcabpilot's statement, "The tentative agreement would have allowed unlimited international outsourcing of maintenance." The TA states that "Article II.F: Permit HMV/OSV offshore of 747/777 only." The TA doesn't show any agreement for oustsourcing of all maintenance. Since we haven't had any overhaul for the last 2-3 years, the Negotiating Committee used that as a trade off to minimize something else. Who are you trying to protect by resisting the outsourcing of something we don't do anymore? Timco? or other OSV in the state?

Second, I didn't say you were anti pilot, it just seem that this board has turned into Mechs vs. Pilots or others. If you got the impression that I thought you were anti pilot, that's not the case at all.

Hopefully the no vote will turn into something positive but I'm not very optimistic. Here are the possible scenarios that could take place during the days ahead according to this:

Judge as final arbiter

In an 1113© application the judge has several options when making a ruling. He can reject the company’s application and leave the labor contract intact. He can approve the application and terminate the labor agreement completely. Or, he can listen to the arguments of the company and union at the court hearing and instruct the two parties to go back to the bargaining table.

If the judge voids the contract, United is free--if it chooses--to impose wage, work rule and benefit changes as it sees fit. The Association likewise is free to act in our best interests. It does not mean necessarily a strike or any specific action by the union. It simply indicates that the crisis is such that neither the union nor management can agree to work together to move the airline forward.

Yes, Good Luck to us all as we are going to need it!

Take Care

 

[Baja4U]

First of all, I disagree with kcabpilot's statement, "The tentative agreement would have allowed unlimited international outsourcing of maintenance." The TA states that "Article II.F: Permit HMV/OSV offshore of 747/777 only." The TA doesn't show any agreement for oustsourcing of all maintenance. Since we haven't had any overhaul for the last 2-3 years, the Negotiating Committee used that as a trade off to minimize something else. Who are you trying to protect by resisting the outsourcing of something we don't do anymore? Timco? or other OSV in the state?

Second, I didn't say you were anti pilot, it just seem that this board has turned into Mechs vs. Pilots or others. If you got the impression that I thought you were anti pilot, that's not the case at all.

Hopefully the no vote will turn into something positive but I'm not very optimistic. Here is the possible scenarios that could take during the days ahead according to this:

Judge as final arbiter
Hang in there guys, and hold your breath, it's going to be a bumpy ride !!! U still did the RIGHT thing!!!
In an 1113© application the judge has several options when making a ruling. He can reject the company’s application and leave the labor contract intact. He can approve the application and terminate the labor agreement completely. Or, he can listen to the arguments of the company and union at the court hearing and instruct the two parties to go back to the bargaining table.

If the judge voids the contract, United is free--if it chooses--to impose wage, work rule and benefit changes as it sees fit. The Association likewise is free to act in our best interests. It does not mean necessarily a strike or any specific action by the union. It simply indicates that the crisis is such that neither the union nor management can agree to work together to move the airline forward.

Yes, Good Luck to us all as we are going to need it!

Take Care

[post="243992"][/post]​

 

[UAL_TECH]

UT, Don't roll over like us spineless PUKES at US did !!! Hat's off to U guys,good luck, I wish I was over with U guys instead of being here with the SPINELESS ones at US. Take Care

[post="243991"][/post]​

Baja4U,

Roll over???
I don't think so!!!

But ual747mech has as much right to say his piece as anyone else (Whether I agree with it or not) and he certainly has more right to his opinion than you!

This is not some internet 'game' that is going on as some of us have taken a 'real' stand in our convictions in the face of dire consequences and personal bankruptcy.

You (and your USAir constituency) of all people should respect, appreciate and understand this.

Take Care,
B) UT

 

[Bob Owens]

Baja4U,

Roll over???
I don't think so!!!

But ual747mech has as much right to say his piece as anyone else (Whether I agree with it or not) and he certainly has more right to his opinion than you!

This is not some internet 'game' that is going on as some of us have taken a 'real' stand in our convictions in the face of dire consequences and personal bankruptcy.

You (and your USAir constituency) of all people should respect, appreciate and understand this.

Take Care,
B) UT

[post="243997"][/post]​

Sounds like he does.

 

[usairways_vote_NO]

Is that a fact or just your opinion?  Give us some facts, under what laws or codes are you going by?  I'd like to see what you will come up with, I'll be waiting.

[post="243929"][/post]​

Right to strike and bargain

/30/ A bankruptcy court has no power to enjoin a strike that occurs
during the course of a reorganization. See Truck Drivers Local Union
No. 807 v. Bohack, supra, 541 F.2d at 317-318; In re Petrusch, supra,
667 F.2d at 298-300.

/11/ Although the court of appeals noted (Pet. App. 16a) that the
debtor-in-possession remains obligated to bargain with the incumbent
union following rejection of a collective bargaining agreement,
post-rejection bargaining is no substitute for pre-rejection
bargaining.

Posted before guess you don't read

The court pointed out that the Supreme Court in its NLRB v. Bildisco &
Bildisco155 decision stated that this balancing of the equities must focus on the
ultimate goal of Chapter 11 – reorganization of the debtor.156 Under this
standard, rejection of the present collective bargaining agreement would give
this debtor a chance to rehabilitate itself.157 The debtor clearly has shown that
even after all non-labor cost reductions it is still losing money.158 Thus, the
debtor has met its burden.159

The court then sustained the debtor’s motion to reject the agreement, but
not before pointing out that the status of the union as representative of the
employees is unchanged, that the employees retain their right to strike, that the
debtor remains obligated to bargain in good faith with the union, and that the
debtor is obligated to operate its business in a fair and commercially
responsible manner.

 

[ual747mech]

Right to strike and bargain

/30/ A bankruptcy court has no power to enjoin a strike that occurs
during the course of a reorganization.  See Truck Drivers Local Union
No. 807 v. Bohack, supra, 541 F.2d at 317-318;  In re Petrusch, supra,
667 F.2d at 298-300.

/11/ Although the court of appeals noted (Pet. App. 16a) that the
debtor-in-possession remains obligated to bargain with the incumbent
union following rejection of a collective bargaining agreement,
post-rejection bargaining is no substitute for pre-rejection
bargaining.

Posted before guess you don't read

The court pointed out that the Supreme Court in its NLRB v. Bildisco &
Bildisco155 decision stated that this balancing of the equities must focus on the
ultimate goal of Chapter 11 – reorganization of the debtor.156 Under this
standard, rejection of the present collective bargaining agreement would give
this debtor a chance to rehabilitate itself.157 The debtor clearly has shown that
even after all non-labor cost reductions it is still losing money.158 Thus, the
debtor has met its burden.159

The court then sustained the debtor’s motion to reject the agreement, but
not before pointing out that the status of the union as representative of the
employees is unchanged, that the employees retain their right to strike, that the
debtor remains obligated to bargain in good faith with the union, and that the
debtor is obligated to operate its business in a fair and commercially
responsible manner.

[post="244073"][/post]​

First of all, that's the old code. That's how the 1113 process got in place because of what you noted above. I still don't see where it says we have the right to strike after the contract is abrogated under the new code. Could you pinpoint exactly where it says in the RLA or 1113. As of now we're being told that we have the right to strike according to the union but management says we do not. According to this note posted on AMFA's website it's not necessarily a strike.

If the judge voids the contract, United is free--if it chooses--to impose wage, work rule and benefit changes as it sees fit. The Association likewise is free to act in our best interests. It does not mean necessarily a strike or any specific action by the union. It simply indicates that the crisis is such that neither the union nor management can agree to work together to move the airline forward.

So help us out here, where does it say exactly that we can strike under today's law and what code are you quoting. Yes, I don't read obsolete laws only current laws

 

[Bob Owens]

You wouldn't believe nothing even if it was stamped on your f*cking head!!! Just admit it, you're a sniveling little p*ssy who is terrified of losing this stinking job and you hide behind this facade of legal rheotoric. THEY VOID THE CONTRACT...YOU DON'T WORK...GET IT!!!!

[post="244115"][/post]​

The RLA is pretty clear in that once the company is free to change the contract, like when they are released by the NMB, that the workers are free to exercise self help. BK means they avoided waiting out for the sect6 provision of the RLA, but the law is still in effect. That means strike, slow down, chaos or do nothing. If they do nothing they can still decide to do something at any time in the future. Thats the point, it leaves you with more options than voting Yes.

 

[usairways_vote_NO]

[post="244110"][/post]​

Under § 1113, the rehabilitative goals of the Bankruptcy Code prevail
over the policies of labor law. A debtor-in-possession remains bound as an
“employerâ€￾ under the NLRA, and must comply with its provisions, including
the requirement to bargain collectively, but rejection of the collective
bargaining agreement will not be an unfair labor practice if the debtor
complies with the requirements of § 1113.79

You show us where your code you quote says

1. Union is no longer the bargaining unit in or out of bankruptcy

2. Where it says union cannot strike in or out of bankruptcy

3. Where it says company can impose whatever it wants AND have it as a contract with an amendable date


I'll wait for you to help us out here and point it out to us.

Can you tell us what you think happens after the contract is abrogated and the company comes out of bankruptcy? And after you do please point us to your references to why you think it happens that way. Thank you very much.

Please don't cop out and say "since the crisis is such that neither the union nor management can agree to work together to move the airline forward the airline fails"

 

[usairways_vote_NO]

The RLA is pretty clear in that once the company is free to change the contract, like when they are released by the NMB, that the workers are free to exercise self help. BK means they avoided waiting out  for the sect6 provision of the RLA, but the law is still in effect. That means strike, slow down, chaos or do nothing. If they do nothing they can still decide to do something at any time in the future. Thats the point, it leaves you with more options than voting Yes.

[post="244118"][/post]​

He just doesn't get it

You forgot to add that the union is still the bargaining unit and though the contract was abrogated and company imposed their will that when the company comes out of bankruptcy they have a duty to bargain with the union in good faith.

Even if as he says the union was decertified (not truth) under section 1113 a new union or even same union could come back and get recertified without a contract or an amendable date and then proceed to bargain for new ones.

He seems to think for some reason there will either 1) never be a amendable date again or 2) that the company can set an amendable date as if what they impose is a new contract.

Yes the point is more options thats it exactly. If you vote yes you are dead in water living to fight another day 6+ years down the road. Wow great option

 

[ual747mech]

You wouldn't believe nothing even if it was stamped on your f*cking head!!! Just admit it, you're a sniveling little p*ssy who is terrified of losing this stinking job and you hide behind this facade of legal rheotoric. THEY VOID THE CONTRACT...YOU DON'T WORK...GET IT!!!!

[post="244115"][/post]​

Calm there big boy before you break a line inside your mechanism!! I'm just tired of numbnuts like you who makes decision based on emotions not facts!! As for your jailhouse lawyer buddys here, they're just as freaking immature like you.....You fools got nothing to back up your spins...

 

[usairways_vote_NO]

Calm there big boy before you break a line inside your mechanism!!  I'm just tired of numbnuts like you who makes decision based on emotions not facts!! As for your jailhouse lawyer buddys here, they're just as freaking immature like you.....You fools got nothing to back up your spins...

[post="244195"][/post]​

So you are for limiting free speech and voting due to emotions. Seems you live in the wrong country for that. As for facts and spins still waiting for your spin and the facts to back them up and also the answers to my previous post to you. Have a problem there getting the facts? You sure been lurking a lot and had plenty of time. That is ok I will still wait.

 

[The Ronin]

Calm there big boy before you break a line inside your mechanism!!  I'm just tired of numbnuts like you who makes decision based on emotions not facts!! As for your jailhouse lawyer buddys here, they're just as freaking immature like you.....You fools got nothing to back up your spins...

[post="244195"][/post]​

You just remind me of the little school yard wuss...or the U.N, or puky lawyer while the rest of us exist in the real world, which isn't black and white, prim and proper....there's a whole lot of gray bud. My knuckles aren't hairy, my a** crack doesn't show, and I know the difference between integers, natural numbers, prime and imaginary numbers....sometimes I can even SPELL!!!
You know what a fact is??? Its a fact that at sometime in the day at certain latitudes it's going to get dark. You're the guy thats going to sit there and argue that this is a FACT and thats all there is to it....I'm the guy who's going to walk over and turn the f*cking light on!!!

 

[Bob Owens]

Calm there big boy before you break a line inside your mechanism!! I'm just tired of numbnuts like you who makes decision based on emotions not facts!! As for your jailhouse lawyer buddys here, they're just as freaking immature like you.....You fools got nothing to back up your spins...

[post="244195"][/post]​

Well what have you put forward? Sems that usairways-vote-no put facts with links forward. You said that was the old code, Ok, where is the new one?

I was under the impression that after Lorenzo busted the Pilots through BK that the law was revised to give labor more protection, not less.

 

[usairways_vote_NO]

Well what have you put forward? Sems that usairways-vote-no put facts with links forward. You said that was the old code, Ok, where is the new one?

I was under the impression that after Lorenzo busted the Pilots through BK that the law was revised to give labor more protection, not less.

[post="244269"][/post]​

Kitchen got too hot for him he is done. He is resorting to name calling and disappearing acts now.

 

[ual747mech]

You just remind me of the little school yard wuss...or the U.N, or puky lawyer while the rest of us exist in the real world, which isn't black and white, prim and proper....there's a whole lot of gray bud. My knuckles aren't hairy, my a** crack doesn't show, and I know the difference between integers, natural numbers, prime and imaginary numbers....sometimes I can even SPELL!!!
You know what a fact is??? Its a fact that at sometime in the day at certain latitudes it's going to get dark. You're the guy thats going to sit there and argue that this is a FACT and thats all there is to it....I'm the guy who's going to walk over and turn the f*cking light on!!!

[post="244264"][/post]​

Hey loser, quit your whining already. Are you happy now that we got a bigger paycut than what you could've gotten. It's stu*id loser like you who learns the hard way or don't learn at all. If you're so damn upset why don't you freaking quit and find something else but the fact is you're too damn scared to go out there. You've been spoon fed all your life you're spoiled. If you want to committ suicide don't drag me down with you.