Ual And Usair

[goingboeing]

GB, one reason you may not have seen more of reduction in headcount is that AA is attempting to bring in outside maintenance business to TUL and AFW to generate revenue and yes save union jobs.

[post="172565"][/post]​

Yeah,another way for AA to lose more money.Doesn't anyone remember FedEx from the 1990's and UPS from the 1980's?
AA lost tons of money doing B-727 3rd party maintenance and could not wait to get out of the contract with FedEx.
AA does not have a good track record doing 3rd party maintenance.

Why would I as a customer want to hire AA for my "C" checks if AA charges $92/hr and other 3rd party providers charge $65/hr?

I think its going to be too late to save AA from the inept management of the last 6 years.

 

[local 12 proud]

right now i think AA is just throwing #### against the wall and hoping some of it sticks. delta rumored to file ch.11 next week and i really believe things are only going to get worse before they get better. the only transformation plan that will work is a complete and total rebirth, which means getting rid of everything that has'nt worked and cut every last bit of fat and waste. we are running out of time!

 

[AAmech]

GB, one reason you may not have seen more of reduction in headcount is that AA is attempting to bring in outside maintenance business to TUL and AFW to generate revenue and yes save union jobs.

[post="172565"][/post]​

Yeah,another way for AA to lose more money.Doesn't anyone remember FedEx from the 1990's and UPS from the 1980's?
AA lost tons of money doing B-727 3rd party maintenance and could not wait to get out of the contract with FedEx.
AA does not have a good track record doing 3rd party maintenance.

Why would I as a customer want to hire AA for my "C" checks if AA charges $92/hr and other 3rd party providers charge $65/hr?

I think its going to be too late to save AA from the inept management of the last 6 years.

[post="194273"][/post]​

I don't think they're talking about bringing in C checks. I think its Engine and Component work where AA is price competitive.

 

[goingboeing]

I don't think they're talking about bringing in C checks. I think its Engine and Component work where AA is price competitive.

[post="194477"][/post]​

AA management needs to fix the company,not be an employment agency.
If they don't change course in a hurry AA is in serious trouble. In general I don't have a problem with bringing outside work in but we need to get our own house in order first before we take on more work.

 

[AAmech]

AA management needs to fix the company,not be an employment agency.
If they don't change course in a hurry AA is in serious trouble. In general I don't have a problem with bringing outside work in but we need to get our own house in order first before we take on more work.

[post="194508"][/post]​

This is part of "Fixing the company". AA has the facilities, people, and certification to do certain outside work. The costs to bring in outside work can be extreemly low allowing the company to make a nice profit on it.

 

[firstamendment]

I agree it is very tacky to wish, someone else out of a job. It is though a legitimate discussion on how give backs at these two carriers are setting the stage for us all to be cut.

PS before you point fingers at all AAres look to your own board and how you all were carving out UAL. Planning your new west coast bases and flying U to Asia.

[post="172715"][/post]​

Mikey

I know of only one person who was carving out UAL..a certain capt.

As for over capacitated, 84% full flights, can hardly nonrev..yeah, the industry is waaay over capacitated. B)

 

[Bear96]

I'm sorry that UAL and USAir are in serious trouble.If they manage to hang on and operate it will DESTROY the current wage and benefit structure of unionized airline employees.They will DRIVE DOWN wage and benefits for all airline employees.

[post="171802"][/post]​

I'm confused.

Looking at what AA F/As gave up versus what UA F/As gave up, it seems like APFA gave up the store. Crew meals... layovers... you name it... no doubt all those things are now on the management hit list for us, you know, so we can remain "competitive." Thanks a lot.

So how are we at UA dragging things down? Seems like AA F/As are dragging *us* down!

I know it may be easier to blame the heathens over at UA for your woes, but I think AA F/As need to look in the mirror and take responsibility for what they have done to the profession with their concession vote last year. That was quite a pathetic performance.

 

[Garfield1966]

I'm confused.

Looking at what AA F/As gave up versus what UA F/As gave up, it seems like APFA gave up the store. Crew meals... layovers... you name it... no doubt all those things are now on the management hit list for us, you know, so we can remain "competitive." Thanks a lot.

So how are we at UA dragging things down? Seems like AA F/As are dragging *us* down!

I know it may be easier to blame the heathens over at UA for your woes, but I think AA F/As need to look in the mirror and take responsibility for what they have done to the profession with their concession vote last year. That was quite a pathetic performance.

[post="196646"][/post]​

Good grief. UA has been in Ch 11 for nearly 2 years. UA is trying to kill the pension. UA stock is not even traded on the stock exchange anymore. UA and the courts are not done with employee compensation by a long run.

The concessions we all made and the chages that are being done t the way we fly our schedule may be what saves us from going the way of UA, US and possibly DL if they fo not get their act together.

If you are under the delusion that airline management can just snap a few fingers and make the airline run more efficiently and for there to be no effect on employee compensation then you need the wake the he11 up. There is no way in he11 that will happen. I know, I know .... all airline management are idiots. If only the employees would run the airlines then everytihng would run smooth as butter right? RIGHT?? OH yea, you guys tried that didn't you? How did that work out for you?

We have about $3 billion in cash and as far as I am aware, our pensions are paid up (at least for right now).

 

[Fly]

If you believe, for even a second, that American isn't smart enough to figure out how to dump your pension, then you are delusional. They will....pensions are a thing of the past (and I don't believe that the airline industry will be the only ones doing this)

 

[Bear96]

Good grief. UA has been in Ch 11 for nearly 2 years.

That's my point. AA wasn't in BK, and their F/As gave up more than we did while we ARE in BK. And now AA F/As are blaming UA for dragging down the job???

If you are under the delusion that airline management can just snap a few fingers and make the airline run more efficiently and for there to be no effect on employee compensation then you need the wake the he11 up. ... I know, I know .... all airline management are idiots. If only the employees would run the airlines then everytihng would run smooth as butter right? RIGHT?? OH yea, you guys tried that didn't you? How did that work out for you?

Not sure what you are talking about here-- or even if it was directed at me. I have never said anything about management snapping fingers, ar that they are all idiots, etc., and BTW the F/As were not part of the ESOP if that is what you are referring to-- you'd have to ask a pilot or mechanic about how the ESOP worked out for them, but nice try.

Anyway. My only point is that it doesn't make sense for AA employees to be blaming UA employees for their troubles, since AA employees have voluntarily given up at least as much as us, if not more. Does Ch.11 itself create an uneven playing field for UA at some level? Sure. But that is hardly the fault of the UA employees-- the law is the law, and if you don't like the Bankruptcy Code, you will have to talk to your legislators. (Of course, you might not want to change it TOO much since you will probably be taking advantage of some of its provisions as well in the not-too-distant future. On second thought, I am sure you will all do the right thing and not go the Ch.11 route, and instead just quietly, nobly shut down like you want us at UA to do, so the folks at the surviving airlines don't have to watch the spectacle, right? No one likes to have to look at the sick and handicapped, after all-- too depressing.)

our pensions are paid up (at least for right now).

We still have our pensions (at least for right now) too. And as Fly said you are delusional if you think your pensions will still be around 12 months after UA figures out how to dump ours. But I am sure that will be my fault as well.

Now if you're an AA F/A, go enjoy that 12-hour GRU layover, and don't forget to pack your lunch.

 

[aafsc]

That's my point. AA wasn't in BK, and their F/As gave up more than we did while we ARE in BK. And now AA F/As are blaming UA for dragging down the job???
Not sure what you are talking about here-- or even if it was directed at me. I have never said anything about management snapping fingers, ar that they are all idiots, etc., and BTW the F/As were not part of the ESOP if that is what you are referring to-- you'd have to ask a pilot or mechanic about how the ESOP worked out for them, but nice try.

Anyway. My only point is that it doesn't make sense for AA employees to be blaming UA employees for their troubles, since AA employees have voluntarily given up at least as much as us, if not more. Does Ch.11 itself create an uneven playing field for UA at some level? Sure. But that is hardly the fault of the UA employees-- the law is the law, and if you don't like the Bankruptcy Code, you will have to talk to your legislators. (Of course, you might not want to change it TOO much since you will probably be taking advantage of some of its provisions as well in the not-too-distant future. On second thought, I am sure you will all do the right thing and not go the Ch.11 route, and instead just quietly, nobly shut down like you want us at UA to do, so the folks at the surviving airlines don't have to watch the spectacle, right? No one likes to have to look at the sick and handicapped, after all-- too depressing.)
We still have our pensions (at least for right now) too. And as Fly said you are delusional if you think your pensions will still be around 12 months after UA figures out how to dump ours. But I am sure that will be my fault as well.

Now if you're an AA F/A, go enjoy that 12-hour GRU layover, and don't forget to pack your lunch.

[post="196750"][/post]​

I usually don't cooment on the internal affairs of other airlines and their employees. But in this case I must because I will affect me at AA (along with everyone else) and because you are on the AA board. First, let me say that I wish no ill will on anyone at any airline. I have 2 relatives that retired from UA and I have friends that are still there (ex EA coworkers). Yes we at AA gave concessions, about the same right now give or take a little. But AA made the full legally required payment to our pension funds for 2004 and they say they can make the required contributions for 2005. I agree that if UA dumps its 8.5 billion dollar prension obligation that AA and everyone else will do the same. I am hoping that if worse comes to worse they fill freeze it and give us what we accrued then have a 401k from that point forward. But just a few years ago (2000). The pilots at UA orchestrated the summer from hell which cost UA about 750 million dollars. To put that in perspective that is how much they paid for PAs pacific routes. That amount also equals about 5 or 6 747 400s. That 750 million, plus the snapback after the esop expired plus the large raises granted after the slow down plus 9-11 tooke most of UAs cash. They were very demanding, "give us what we want". Now today it is almost like your very happy to take the already implemented pay cut (with a lot more to come) the reduction of medical, work rules, layoffs, loss of pension, and paying substantially more for retiree medical. Wow what an attitude change. I predict that the people of UA will work for whatever Tillton gives you and all other airlines will match. They will have to. Just thanking you in advace.

 

[Bear96]

because you are on the AA board.

Actually this is the USAviation board, of which I am a registered member and so can post where I please (at the whim of the moderators of course).

Now today it is almost like your very happy to take the already implemented pay cut (with a lot more to come) the reduction of medical, work rules, layoffs, loss of pension, and paying substantially more for retiree medical. Wow what an attitude change.

In case you think I am a UAL pilot, for the record I am not.

I predict that the people of UA will work for whatever Tillton gives you and all other airlines will match. They will have to.

This is true. But in case you didn't notice, we are ALREADY in the "matching" game / lowest common denominator / race to the bottom and have been for some time. And it started well before UA entered Ch.11. In fact, UA employees fought very hard for many years to keep the standards HIGH, which other airlines' unions matched. For example, I didn't hear AA and DL pilots complaining after UA pilots got their post-Summer From Hell contract. To the contrary, DALPA and the APA thanked the UA pilots and then ran to their respective managements and used the UA pilots' success to increase their own wages.

Of course, all of those actions-- particularly the SFH at UA in 2000-- have consequences which we are now paying for. (And I generally agree with your comments about that; it was a rather shortsighted display of greed by BOTH UA management, which triggered the SFH, and the UA pilot's reactions to management's greed, which has had long-lasting consequences.) But one could argue UA employees kept standards high industry-wide for as long as possible. Now blaming UA employees for all of your ills is really not fair, and-- although there may be a kernel of truth to it-- on whole it is not very accurate either.

[post="196828"][/post]​

 

[WorldTraveler]

Before everyone assumes that AA will dump their pensions because UA will undoubtedly do the same, you must ask the question whether AA management believes UA will be successful as a business in the long term - and the jury is far from certain as to UA's future.

DL succeeded at freezing their pilot pension and converting their pilot's future retirement pensions to what is reported to be a 401K type program. (I haven't seen the new contract so don't know the exact terms). DL previously converted their non-contract employees to a cash balance plan with a 7 year phase out. DL has stated that they have no intention of dumping their pension obligations on the government and will generate the money necessary to fund their frozen pensions. It is more likely than not that AA will choose to take the DL approach over the UA/US approach.
Browse through the US and UA forums on this board or talk to the employees at those companies and you will see that the heart and soul is being ripped out of those companies; many US employees have absolutely no desire to serve their customers any longer and the same will happen at UA if the pensions are terminated and further cuts are imposed, as is likely to happen. Human nature is the same at any business. UA and US may have no choice financially but that is not true at every airline.

This is a pivotal time for the industry - when the long term winners and losers will be chosen. It is no longer a given that every airline will follow the same playbook. All choices have costs; some management teams recognize that the cost of terminating pension plans is too costly in the long term.
Further, in an industry where the government is needed as an ally, it does little good to take an action that will surely result in scorn being directed at a particular company. It is inevitable that every company will need help in the future; ticking off the government today certainly doesn't help ones cause down the road.

 

[firstamendment]

I hope you have your resume ready, because USair is dead as a door-nail. At some point, economics prevals and when it does U will be right next to Eastern in the graveyard.

[post="172133"][/post]​

What is American's profit margin? How in debt are they? How high are your operating cost. You guys aren't out of the woods and if you kep losing money by the millions, you too will be in Chapter 11. Don't blame the irresponsible AA management on USA or UAL. You guys are cut fron the same clothe, like it or not. :down: :down:

 

[aafsc]

Actually this is the USAviation board, of which I am a registered member and so can post where I please (at the whim of the moderators of course).
In case you think I am a UAL pilot, for the record I am not.
This is true. But in case you didn't notice, we are ALREADY in the "matching" game / lowest common denominator / race to the bottom and have been for some time. And it started well before UA entered Ch.11. In fact, UA employees fought very hard for many years to keep the standards HIGH, which other airlines' unions matched. For example, I didn't hear AA and DL pilots complaining after UA pilots got their post-Summer From Hell contract. To the contrary, DALPA and the APA thanked the UA pilots and then ran to their respective managements and used the UA pilots' success to increase their own wages.

Of course, all of those actions-- particularly the SFH at UA in 2000-- have consequences which we are now paying for. (And I generally agree with your comments about that; it was a rather shortsighted display of greed by BOTH UA management, which triggered the SFH, and the UA pilot's reactions to management's greed, which has had long-lasting consequences.) But one could argue UA employees kept standards high industry-wide for as long as possible. Now blaming UA employees for all of your ills is really not fair, and-- although there may be a kernel of truth to it-- on whole it is not very accurate either.

[post="196828"][/post]​

[post="196844"][/post]​

First, It doesn't matter to me where you post.
Second, you stated that the UA pilots set a high standard, they did and I totally agree with you. However, at EAL we prevented the lowest standards from becoming a reality througout the industry. Lorenzo wanted 50% paycuts, no benefits, no pension or retiree health care, and draconian work rules, almost as bad as what is being offered to US employees which more than likely will be imposed on UA employees. The difference is at EAL we all walked out as to where it seems that at UA they will accept these conditions. Yes, at EA we sacraficed all to keep the disease from spreading and it bought the employees of the other airlines 15 years to make decent wages. I am not blaming UA employees for "all my ills" and never blamed them for anything. I just pointed out the sequence of events that led to the BK and then stated their behavior in 2000 (very militant) versus now (humble and willing to accept what ever Tilton gives them) and the consequences to all of the other airline employees. And in my opinion, it will happen.