More Wage And Benefit Cuts?

[Garfield1966]

<_< Hey Garfield! Ever think there's a good chance you have a three week VC is because of the Unions??????

Not sure I see the connection. None of the positions I have ever been in have been union. None of the positions I have held have ever had any of the other “benefitsâ€￾ of being in a union. Why would we just get that one benefit? Besides, only 1 out of the 3 weeks is actually company vacation. The other 2 weeks are trades.

Please explain how the union got my department the vacation benefits that we have.

I would love to have some of the other benefits of the union, like calling in sick for holidays and not getting fired, refusing to fly and not getting fired, not showing up for work because my flight (from who the hell cares where) was over sold and not getting fired … etc I want some of those benefits. Now if your union can provide my department with some of those benefits I am guessing there would be quite a few of my peers who would welcome you.

 

[LiveInAHotel]

I sure do hate unions.

And they hate you too!



UNION YES!

 

[Mach85ER]

"None of the positions I have held have ever had any of the other “benefitsâ€￾ of being in a union"

Garfield,

Back in 1991, you and every other employee group both union and non-union gained the ability for paycheck direct deposit courtesy of the pilots negotiations.

 

[mweiss]

Back in 1991, you and every other employee group both union and non-union gained the ability for paycheck direct deposit courtesy of the pilots negotiations.

This is truly laughable. Direct deposit saves the employer incredible amounts of money once the initial investment is made. If AA wasn't going to do this anyway, they would have deserved the loss in cost competitiveness.

 

[Wretched Wrench]

Please explain how the union got my department the vacation benefits that we have.

I don't know how long you have been paying attention, but I have been here since CR Smith ran the place. Every time the union got this or that benefit, non-union and management received the same or similar benefit not soon after. I have had several of my friends in management tell me that they were depending on us to get them a raise and improvement in benefits. And the Unions did.

Conversely, when the TWU started giving away the store, they saw a concomitant reduction in their pay and benefits.


Unions are a mixed blessing, in the best of times as well as the worst of times. the fact that you HATE unions tells us more about yourself than we would really like to know.

You would do well to hate less and think more.

BTW, when I was a young new hire, I was not a union man. Over the years, I have come to realize that the good balanced out the bad. In a perfect world, management would be so capable and decent that we would not need a union. Their leadership and management skills would cause the workforce to all work together for the common good. Rather like the state "withering away" under communism, if you have read Ulyanov.

 

[Mach85ER]

[

"This is truly laughable. Direct deposit saves the employer incredible amounts of money once the initial investment is made. If AA wasn't going to do this anyway, they would have deserved the loss in cost competitiveness."

Not quite Einstein,
Most cubicle dwellers and ground personel were present enough so the float was at most 1-2 days. That isn't a huge amount, but still free money at the time for AMR. The big number was for the pilots and FA's. Due to our flight schedules, a rough guess on the average float would average at least 7 days. That's 7 days for 9000 pilots and 18000 FA's.
At that time, AMR claimed they were one of the most IT orientated companies in the world. Nearly every large corporation at the time had "DD". We didn't because Crandall was collecting the float each month. He told our negotiators we could have DD as long as we paid 250K/yr to make up for the lost float. I know most other employee groups would rather choke on their bile than to attribute a gain to the pilots, but that's the facts.
It's not laughable at all. Even today I give this POS corp a no interest loan of 9$9,000-10,000 a year since this "computerized" company can't seem to pay me for work until a month later (July paycheck is June flying).

 

[mweiss]

Mach,

$250,000 is probably pretty accurate if there were that many people with a week of float. That comes to about $9.26 per employee per year.

However, the cost of cutting and distributing checks in AA's environment is about 40¢ each. That's $10.40 per employee, per year.

The cost of a direct deposit via ACH is 3¢ each, or 78¢ per employee, per year.

Thus, shifting to ACH saves the company $9.62 per employee per year, while costing the company $9.26 per employee per year in float. The net savings is 36¢ per employee, per year.

Put another way, it's basically breakeven to make the shift, not counting the hassle reduction to everyone in the company from the top to the bottom.

My guess? It was a card being played in negotiations between management and the unions...as usual.

 

[Mach85ER]

My guess? It was a card being played in negotiations between management and the unions...as usual.

Better than even chance that was the real reason

Are those ACH numbers for 2004? Wondering if the 1991 ACH vs Paper costs made more of a difference. I have no doubt todays numbers favor ACH.

Still, when we got it in our agreement in 1991, they did it company wide and not a day sooner.

 

[mweiss]

ACH has been mighty steady in price for some time. It may have been as high as a nickel back then, but certainly no higher. The Fed had a lot of incentive from the inception of Reg E to encourage the shift from paper checks to electronic.

 

[mjk]

Even today I give this POS corp a no interest loan of 9$9,000-10,000 a year since this "computerized" company can't seem to pay me for work until a month later (July paycheck is June flying).

If you were wondering if Mach85ER really was a pilot, this quote should erase all doubt.

 

[MCI transplant]

:huh: Hey WW----- Are you really that old???? Here I thought I was the only old fart arround here!!!!!!

 

[Garfield1966]

Here is a perfect example of why unions have such a bad reputation and seem to be loosing strength.

It seems that the APA is trying to screw its staff over. According to an APSEA member, the APA wants to eliminate medical benefits for its staff AND have them take a pay cut. The article also says that they want to institute a seniority list for job security but the APA is against this as well. Seems they have been negotiating for over a year now.

This shows me that unions are out to protect them selves and all others be damned. If this article is true then the APA is full of self centered, hypocrites.

And I want to be a member of a union? Not on your life.

In most cases I consider my self a liberal but I guess where work is concerned, I am a conservative. I believe that pay, promotions and the right to work should be based on performance, not your ability to show up and breath. I would not want anything for my self that I would not want for my co-workers.

 

[UAL_TECH]

Mach,

$250,000 is probably pretty accurate if there were that many people with a week of float. That comes to about $9.26 per employee per year.

However, the cost of cutting and distributing checks in AA's environment is about 40¢ each. That's $10.40 per employee, per year.

The cost of a direct deposit via ACH is 3¢ each, or 78¢ per employee, per year.

Thus, shifting to ACH saves the company $9.62 per employee per year, while costing the company $9.26 per employee per year in float. The net savings is 36¢ per employee, per year.

Put another way, it's basically breakeven to make the shift, not counting the hassle reduction to everyone in the company from the top to the bottom.

My guess? It was a card being played in negotiations between management and the unions...as usual.

mweiss,

Distribution costs haven't changed.
Some do not have direct deposit and must be issued a check.
Also, every employee is given a pay stub and whether the check
attached is 'VOID' or an actual check, the distribution method is the same.
(at least here at the Lazy U and I doubt AA is much different)

UT

 

[TWAnr]

Also, every employee is given a pay stub and whether the check attached is 'VOID' or an actual check, the distribution method is the same.

(at least here at the Lazy U and I doubt AA is much different)

It is different at American.

No paper stubs are distributed to those who have direct deposit and the pay information is accessible only online. The minuscule few who elect to receive paper checks must pick those at their domiciles. Albeit, there is no system in place to ensure that the checks do not get into the wrong hands. The checks are just left there, in a file cabinet, waiting to be picked up. It is simply too much of a hassle and a security risk for those who fly.

 

[Hunter]

"Shut it down" is not an option givin to any labor group. BK law gives the unions an opportunity to modify their contracts. If they refuse, the contract can then be thrown out and the company will drive on without them. Once a contract is thrown out a company can do whatever they wish. Layoff all non-hackers and non-perfomers out of seniority. Set individual payrates. Outsource whatever they please! You name it they can do it! Nobody will care if we say "shut it down"!

The information you have posted concerning labor contracts and bankruptcy is incorrect. Posts such as yours inject nothing but fear into an already difficult situation. Please refrain from posting information that you do not know to be correct.

While I am not a bankruptcy attorney nor do I possess any specialized knowledge of the proceedings, I have lived through 3 bankruptcies and am familiar with the process. First, labor contracts are never "thrown out" as you suggest, thanks to new laws enacted after Lorenzo's tenure at Continental.

Concessions must be negotiated in good faith under the supervision of the bankruptcy judge assigned the case. Only the judge determines when the parties are at an impasse - usually a very long period of time - and only then does he/she release each side to self help. The judge can then order the implementation of a blending of the last best offers from both sides - similar to arbitration process. It in no way resembles "whatever the company wants" as you have lead people to believe.

You also add that a company can lay off whomever they choose in a bankruptcy setting. That is also incorrect. The incumbent union remains the collective bargaining representative of the class, even though a contract has been imposed by a judge. Should there be furloughs, they will/must occur in seniority order.

The process is intentionally arduous to facilitate a negotiated settlement between labor and management. The information in this post is overly simplistic, to say the least. I have intentionally omitted the technical/legal terms of the steps in the process for clarity and easier understanding. Suffice it to say, it is absolutely essential that unions confronting a company bankruptcy retain bankruptcy attorneys and negotiators to best protect the interests of their members...at least that is what they should do.

Respectfully,

Hunter