UA/US Seniority, what if

[Doc]

This time around I think a merger would work. I think everybody has been scared enough at this point to find a seniority integration system that works. Talking with some USAirways pilots recently I learned that the average age of their pilot group was around 46. It would be a simple matter to fence the widebodies for 15 years, and shuffle people together on the narrowbodies. I'm speaking from a pilot's point of view, so I wouldn't even begin to know how the mechanics and flight attendants would work this.

If there were to be a merger why would there be any question about merging seniority dates seems to me that if you want this one big airline you would want all employee’s to be some what happy if that is possible.

Union solidarity 1 for 1 why is that so hard for everybody?

 

[Fly]

Doc Posted on Sep 9 2003, 11:03 AM
If there were to be a merger why would there be any question about merging seniority dates seems to me that if you want this one big airline you would want all employee’s to be some what happy if that is possible.

Union solidarity 1 for 1 why is that so hard for everybody?

Because US hasn't hired many f/a's for years. Why would we want to lose the ability to fly the decent trips? :unsure:

 

[737nCH11]

Same for the pilot group. UAL has a large fleet of widebodies compared to U. U's pilot group is more senior than UAL's due to the fact that U didn't hire many pilots in the '90s. I can't think of a single UAL pilot who would be willing to give up his widebody seat for the sake of harmony, and they shouldn't have to. Career expectations must be taken into account.

 

[firstamendment]

Doc Posted on Sep 9 2003, 11:03 AM
If there were to be a merger why would there be any question about merging seniority dates seems to me that if you want this one big airline you would want all employee’s to be some what happy if that is possible.

Union solidarity 1 for 1 why is that so hard for everybody?

Because US hasn't hired many f/a's for years. Why would we want to lose the ability to fly the decent trips? :unsure:

I am looking at the seniority list on our employee board called the Hub as I write this. Maybe to you one and a half years is a few years ago, but my reality is different. Infact, 1549 f/a's were hired in 2001 alone.

Your ignorance of the facts is why I and many US Airways f/a's DO NOT want to see a merger with United. There are too many like minded employees as you...the same mentality that feels we think your company is the savior of US. NO WAY!! Working for your company would be switching seats on the Titanic. You people are in denial that your company is still in trouble and you somehow think we would want to trade our dysfunctional company for yours?

As far as integration of seniority, check your AFA bylaws...and while you're at it, talk with Pat Friend, our AFA international prez. I do believe it was the United f/a's with Ms. Friend that crafted this language. Guess who ole Pat works for? YES, UNITED!!! Your leadership crafted the language and now you want to take the ball in the middle of the game and go home? HYPOCRITES!!

As far as "taking the good trips", what is a good trip? Let's break it down. We have 5800 active f/a's with no hope of recalling up to senority #10470. 1500 of those are based in Charlotte and either live in the Carolinas or commute to Florida. That leaves 4300 f/as. 2500 are based in PHL where the flying IS pretty damn good. There are west coast commuters....so SFO would be popular..but you can't keep enough f/a's there because of the the high cost of living. OK , that leaves 1800 f/a's. 1100 or so are in PIT. Again, locals and commuters. The other f/as are in LGA, BOS, and DCA. Big threat. They would filter out just like they did during our Piedmont, PSA, and Trump mergers. Some will feel it, most will not.

Do you realize what a small bump it would be to intergrate 5800 f/as into your 20000? Most of us US f/a's are not sitting around praying for Jesus United to save us and even if you did, we would only expect to be treated fairly like U has done for Piedmont, PSA, and Trump. All got their date of hire senority and followed the AFA International bylaws and YOU WILL do the same. So if you are concerned about a merger, start praying. BTW, many of the old gals here are ready to bail because their retirement is based on the best 3 of the last 10 years. Well, our contract ends in 2008, so those close to retiring ain't gonna get any better yearly income. So within 3 years I predict the top 1000 will be gone.

I don't mind or care what you think of the company known as US Airways, but please don't make us the enemy. Nobody put a gun to your management's head to purchase us "a few years ago" :unsure: , yet there is so much venom thrown our way. What in God's name is that about? Chip Munn? If that is the case, you people aren't as bright as I thought.

Just please get your facts right before you spout off.

 

[Fly]

firstamendment Posted on Sep 9 2003, 04:24 PM

Take a deeeeep breath. Of course it isn't personal, but you know full well that the ONLY thing we have is seniority. I've spent 18 years trying to get a decent trip and don't intend to start over again. You are correct about the AFA bylaws, which is why the UAL f/a's are in the process of getting the signatures to dump AFA. We want a union that represents ONLY us. And we certainly don't want CWA! See how it worked at AA? They have their only representation and TWA got stapled. Regardless of how cruel it sounds, in this business seniority is king.

By the way: I commute from Florida too. So there presents another problem....I don't want to get bumped from my commute to work either.

I don't believe this merger will ever happen anyway, but that's my opinion of a merger.

 

[firstamendment]

Take a deeeeep breath. Of course it isn't personal, but you know full well that the ONLY thing we have is seniority. I've spent 18 years trying to get a decent trip and don't intend to start over again. You are correct about the AFA bylaws, which is why the UAL f/a's are in the process of getting the signatures to dump AFA. We want a union that represents ONLY us. And we certainly don't want CWA! See how it worked at AA? They have their only representation and TWA got stapled. Regardless of how cruel it sounds, in this business seniority is king.

By the way: I commute from Florida too. So there presents another problem....I don't want to get bumped from my commute to work either.

I don't believe this merger will ever happen anyway, but that's my opinion of a merger.

No offense, dear, but that thinking confirms my exact feelings about your company. I have 17 years so I know alittle of how all this works. Seniorty IS important but not king and should not be a we bought you, go to the bottom right of passage. That is an illusion placed on the industry by self serving individuals who have no respect for anyone. They are the me me me me me me me me me people of the world. The desire to eliminate AFA is because of the same typical airline mentality that is killing this industry. If I don't get what I want ( the me me me me), then I will go elsewhere. If that sounds harsh, then take a look at it. Be honest. I have followed this merger attempt for a long time and the issue with your f/a's is a one issued...seniority...so dump AFA and be independent so you can be a bully. Sorry, but that is the way it comes out. That thinking is no better than our two companies who have in the past tried to bully their way into squashing the competition, inparticularly the LCCs. It is collectively negative and the results have finally come back to haunt our companies...including American, the all time bully . The LCC are kicking our asses and I for one think it's great.

With all the industry experts noting that there must be intergration for this industry to survive, the majority of the older traditional carriers will continue to sabatoge the process or make the process so difficult in the integration that they continue to drive the customer base to the LCC. It's already happening. Most people no longer care if they are on a 747 or not or if you have a great route network. They want cheap fares and alittle respect, something the majors have lost touch with.

BTW, I do not need you to tell me to take a deeep breath. I am very sure of my feelings of this industry. Your comment suggest I am angry, but I am not. I am looking at the industry for what it is and it is NOT good. You see, I HAVE a plan, and when that 20 year mark is here (provided US is still around) for me, I am out of here. There is too much collective negativity in this industry and it is as contageous as the common cold. It's nasty, cold and yes, cruel. We are only as good as the people we choose to hang with. If that is the way you choose to spend the rest of your life than good luck, but I want more out of life than what this industry offers and frankly I find it sickening that you actually can find praise or acceptability in any part of the way the TWA f/a's were treated. Maybe you think that is acceptable but I find it disgusting. Is it any wonder the entire world seems to loathe Americans? The same mentality the airline employees collectively portrays pretty much equals the collective mentallity of most Americans.

I hope the best for my pals in this industry but I for one have had enough. What was i thinking? That there was not life after the airline industry? Well there is and it has finally dawned on me that I have been sticking with an industry that is as dysfunctional as the family I grew up with and to truely heal I must get out of that craziness. But then who in this industry cares if you stay or not...those below me will move up a senority number and anyway, regardless of how cruel it sounds, in this business seniority is king.

Enjoy your kingdom. .......while it last.

 

[Fly]

Enjoy your kingdom. .......while it last.

Don't worry, I'm taken care of.

They want cheap fares and alittle respect, something the majors have lost touch with.

Are you saying your flight attendants don't treat people with respect?

 

[737nCH11]

How about we go back to a less senitive topic??????

 

[Doc]

I knew this topic would start this @&@# but I must remind everbody.. A clause in CWA contract states nothing happens unless it's 1 for 1.. so dont't be suprised.....
But I don't think anything will happen anyway but what if was the other way around would you not want your senority remember your not in such great shape either anything can happen what ever it is I as always would wish the best for all my brother and sisters in any union if we don't have each other we have nothing....




nothing but love


:wub: :wub:

 

[Bear96]

firstamendment...

Dude... chill out! Where did all THAT come from??? You seem to have a lot of pent up anger and vitriol towards UA (Chip-- is that you in a F/A uniform?), since you spent a LOT of words expressing it on a thread that had little or nothing to do with seniority integration. Apparently some unresolved issues for you there. Certainly someone can post an opinion that differs from yours without getting a nasty tirade in return? All Fly said was "U hasn't hired F/As in many years. Why would we want to lose the ability to fly decent trips?" That's it.

So s/he was factually wrong. You can make your correction about the U seniority list without going into how evil UA employees are, I hope. (Though is that 2001 seniority person you named still working, or on furlough? F/As hired in 2001 for UA ARE currently working, which is an important distinction to make if the 2001 U hires currently are not.) Plus I think the main point that on average or when looking at seniority lists as a whole, U employees are considerably more senior than UA's, so naturally U F/As will tend to want a seniority integration based solely on date-of-hire while UA F/As will want a different system. That is to be expected; no need to go off with guns blazing because someone posted two sentences you don't agree with.

 

[USAirBoyA330]

I think firstamendment is remembering when the U F/A's were screamed at and even spit at on the West coast a few times. It's hard to forget the way the UAL F/A group reacted during the failed merger and EVERYTHING she said is 100% true. The only people to blame for bitter resentment are the ones that treated U employees like DOGS in 2000.

 

[Bear96]

I think firstamendment is remembering when the U F/A's were screamed at and even spit at on the West coast a few times. It's hard to forget the way the UAL F/A group reacted during the failed merger and EVERYTHING she said is 100% true. The only people to blame for bitter resentment are the ones that treated U employees like DOGS in 2000.

USAirBoy330,

Please... for every incident where a UA F/A said something nasty to a U F/A, there was also one where a U F/A said something nasty to a UA F/A... along the lines of "Enjoy your nice trips (/bases/planes/whatever) now cuz we're coming to take 'em!" Anyway, considering what has happened in the past three years, that was a long long time ago in a totally different world. Seems like UA F/As have managed to get over it somehow.

scot,

I agree and apologize for my part in letting this drift off topic. Is there a way a moderator can take the couple of posts that are off topic in this thread and put them into a new one? I'd do it myself but don't have those "moderator powers."

Moderators Note- Done as requested. This is an interesting topic of discussion, but please keep it civil or it will be closed. Thanks.

 

[firstamendment]

firstamendment...

Dude... chill out! Where did all THAT come from??? You seem to have a lot of pent up anger and vitriol towards UA (Chip-- is that you in a F/A uniform?), since you spent a LOT of words expressing it on a thread that had little or nothing to do with seniority integration. Apparently some unresolved issues for you there. Certainly someone can post an opinion that differs from yours without getting a nasty tirade in return? All Fly said was "U hasn't hired F/As in many years. Why would we want to lose the ability to fly decent trips?" That's it.

So s/he was factually wrong. You can make your correction about the U seniority list without going into how evil UA employees are, I hope. (Though is that 2001 seniority person you named still working, or on furlough? F/As hired in 2001 for UA ARE currently working, which is an important distinction to make if the 2001 U hires currently are not.) Plus I think the main point that on average or when looking at seniority lists as a whole, U employees are considerably more senior than UA's, so naturally U F/As will tend to want a seniority integration based solely on date-of-hire while UA F/As will want a different system. That is to be expected; no need to go off with guns blazing because someone posted two sentences you don't agree with.

Bear,

Chip thinks US will conguer UAL and the world. There is absolutely nothing in my post to suggest that. Infact quite the opposite. Also, it was Fly who changed the tone bringing up the seniority issue and then making it worse by somehow honoring the AA/TWA mess. You can't expect people to not respond to the sensitive or in that case insensitive words. I was not the one to turn the thread. You read into the post what your illusion of it was. Fly is entitled to her opinion, as I am. I just found the cold way of dealing with others the affirmation that I made the right decision to get the hell out of this negative industry. BTW, Fly, sorry if I was too harsh. I do believe more than once I made it clear that I did not desire your company to merge with us or that I looked at UAL as our savior. What part of that sounds like Chip Munn? Sounds like someone is guilty of the same anger he blames other of. As I said in my last post, I am not angry. I can now see this industry for what it is. It is ugly, cold , and heartless. I was just responding to that ugliness and if you think that spells anger than you have a right to your opinion. Anyway, it's none of my business what you think of my post or me....but please Bear...comparing me to Chip Munn? That's cold, man. :blink:

 

[firstamendment]

Don't worry, I'm taken care of.

They want cheap fares and alittle respect, something the majors have lost touch with.

Are you saying your flight attendants don't treat people with respect?

I never said that , but the perception is that the majors are out of touch.

BTW I do apologize if I was too harsh. I plan on enjoying my kingdom as well...doing what I really want to do.

ciao

 

[PhillyFlyGuy]

Very well spoken Firstamendment. You have spoken volumes for the US Airways Flight Attendants. Myself being one "I thank you." for the posted message.