UA/UA merger?

[ohcaptainron]

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On 9/18/2002 8:18:15 PM oldiebutgoody wrote:



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I wouldn't believe any of this until I actually saw it for a couple of reasons. First, UAL doesn't even have a CONDITIONAL loan approval.
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I was not clear, the plan as it stands now does not include a ATSB loan of any kind. UAL will file an updated application, there are a number of concerns beyond BK. First no one knows what amount of equity the ATSB will require of US airways or UAL if they approve a guarantee. If it is substancial then it may not be worth the cost. US has no alternatives, they will accept whatever is put on the table. UAL with a restructure does not NEED the loan. It will be able to secure financing. That will not stop UAL from updating the application since there seems to be a changing politcal reality regarding the viability of the industry in general.***************************************

Competitors with a lot of political pull will be trying for their lives to ensure that UAL doesn't qualify. -------
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Not clear at this point, if AMR and others try to prevent UAL from getting a loan then with the threat of BK, AMR and others will have no option but to file as well.What is the lesser of the two evils?------------------------------------

Second, how can you have ANY idea of what the corporation's plans are. You indicated that you knew what UAL was going to ask for in concessions; you must mean what they asked for last time. --------------------------------------------
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I just went to a meeting where these and other timly topics were discussed, So I know what they were asking for , whether or not they will amend their requests from what was allegitly requested from the ATSB , I have no idea.********


I think the new reality will be shades of magnitude larger, possibly more than U pilots gave (as a percentage of total benefit package). I'll just wait and see.----------------
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That so far does not look like the case.***************

I think this industry is about to be shaken up and will likely NOT resemble anything like it is today. I witnessed how difficult it was to get all of U's employees on board, and they had been facing reality for a long time. I don't see how UAL has a hope of matching this in a couple of weeks. This is going to be a very interesting autumn. One thing's for sure, NOTHING IS A DONE DEAl

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I TOTALLY AGREE

 

[chipmunn]

Ohcaptainiron:

Your emotion, condescending comments, and purposeful mispronunciation of my name says it all. Would you care to identify yourself, Captain Courageous?

There is reason to believe your post in full of inaccurate information and your motives are transparent. At this point there is too much in play at UA for a corporate transaction to proceed or for a specific plan to be developed.

First, we need to see the union’s proposal before the company can decide its restructuring direction, but initial reports from Crain's indicate the union plan may not fly with the ATSB.

There are reports from people close to the ATSB that say the Board may make a bankruptcy filing and governance change a loan guarantee requirement. Apparently the belief is with the ESOP in place, management cannot make decisions that are in the best interest of the company.

Once inside of bankruptcy, there is no guarantee if or in what form the company may emerge in.

I wish no ill harm to UA, its employees, or anybody else, but from a business opportunity the combination of UA and US makes enormous sense.

Maybe if some UA employees would not only think of seniority, but instead of the well-being of their company, UA would still be the largest airline in the world with a fully integrated and powerful domestic as well as world-wide network.

Chip

 

[Flufdriver]

Well said Chip!!! He is someone who doesn't want to face reality.

 

[StewGuy86]

ohcaptainron--

Not only are your posts full of arrogance, they are incredibly annoying to the eye. What's with all the lines and asterisks? It's nearly impossible to tell when you're quoting and reprinting someone else or writing your own thoughts.

Oh, and one more thing.......have you taken the place of magsau as the most condescending, insecure, belittling UAL pilot on the board?

 

[ohcaptainron]

[blockquote]
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On 9/18/2002 9:58:52 PM chipmunn wrote:

Ohcaptainiron:

Your emotion, condescending comments, and purposeful mispronunciation of my name says it all. Would you care to identify yourself, Captain Courageous?
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There is reason to believe your post in full of inaccurate information and your motives are transparent. At this point there is too much in play at UA for a corporate transaction to proceed or for a specific plan to be developed.
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Well OK if you say so. The information came from our MEC, the plan will most likly be made public tommorrow. I do admit that my motives are no more transparent than yours. Judge for yourself
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First, we need to see the union’s proposal before the company can decides its restructuring direction, but initial reports from Crain's indicate the union plan may not fly with the ATSB.
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Crains that wonderful anti-labor publication.

I'll try again, the plan that is being announced WILL attempt to satisfy ATSB, however, if it does not then UAL will restructure outside the ATSB loan program. If the company decides that the restructure plan as presented is inadequte we will file. The difference here being that for the first time in while the investment bankers are saying two things, 1) bk is not a foregone conclusion,2) While the ATSB loan is desirable it may not be necessary or affordable with whatever strings may be attached. Think how much equity or pound of flesh.
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There are reports from people close to the ATSB that say the Board may make a bankruptcy filing and governance change a loan guarantee requirement. Apparently the belief is with the ESOP in place, management cannot make decisions in the best interest of the company.-------------

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Name your sources, our mec and its advisors are very close to this situation, and while you state it as a matter of fact , they do not.
Lets talk about some constitutional issues here,restraint of trade etc. I do believe if ATSB attempts your bankruptcy theory or change of goverence in order to get a loan, they run considerable actionable risks. I will it leave it there.
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Once inside of bankruptcy, there is no guarantee if or in what form a company will emerge.

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I totally agree, Woa, that worries me that we agree on something. Also keep in mind this also applies to US airways, Something, I think that gets lost with your optimistic view of US and your continued and blantant disdain for anything UAL.

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I wish no ill harm to UA, its employees, or anybody else, but from a business opportunity the combination of UA and US makes enormous sense.
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I disagree,what does makes sense is a code share, any combination of these two companies that involves employees, assets, equity will be a disaster. What you seem to be willing to do Chip is to have a race to the bottom to combine these companies, and you have no problem advocating that the US model will be superior, hence benifitting yourself and your company at the expense of mine. Unacceptable and unrealistic.
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Maybe if some UA employees would not only think of seniority, but instead of the well-being of their company, UA would still be the largest airline in the world with a fully integrated and powerful domestic as well as world-wide network.
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Fair enough, some UAL employees think about their seniority, but as I recall that was the ONLY thing that the vast majority of US employees could think of during both failed attempts to aquire your company. And you Chip are clearly calling the kettle black. My issues are WITH the well being of UAL. I do not think your motavation is that altruistic.
Despite your constant anti-labor positions blaming the state of affairs at UAL for anything other than years and years of mismanagement is a strech even for you. Blaming employees is taking the easy way out. This may be before your time but when UAL bought CAPITAL ther reasoning was to fill out the Northeast, sort of like when Allegany bought PSA same kind of execution, different coast. Employees, no I think not.Remember that UAL was the most profitable airline in the world during the ESOP.


If the industry survives count on UAL being there, I hope that US is there as well but not as you envision. Please keep in mind that the politics of a potentially failed industry are going to be changing the market dynamic from here on out. The permutations are numbing.

Time will tell and rather quickly, good luck! Despite our differences I mean that.


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[DCAflyer]

Chip said: Maybe if some UA employees would not only think of seniority, but instead of the well-being of their company, UA would still be the largest airline in the world with a fully integrated and powerful domestic as well as world-wide network.

DCAflyer: Amen, Chip. Amen.

 

[ohcaptainron]

[blockquote]
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On 9/18/2002 10:44:41 PM StewGuy86 wrote:

ohcaptainron--

Not only are your posts full of arrogance, they are incredibly annoying to the eye. What's with all the lines and asterisks? It's nearly impossible to tell when you're quoting and reprinting someone else or writing your own thoughts.


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Sorry my PDA does that sometimes
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Oh, and one more thing.......have you taken the
place of "magsau" as the most condescending, insecure, belittling UAL pilot on the board?
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I am only one person I will do my best. Hopefully Magsau will help me keep Chip in check.

 

[chipmunn]

Chip asked: Would you care to identify yourself, Captain Courageous?

Ohcaptainron answered: Sure chipper, anytime offline

Chip asks: Why not online? Afraid to truly identify yourself? Do you take pleasure in purposely mispronouncing somebody's name, which I consider an insult?

Chip concludes: There is reason to believe much of Ohcaptainron’s comments are inaccurate, misleading, and his intentions are transparent.

Chip

 

[Peetah Griffin]

I swear I'm not just trying to pick a fight. But, captron, I've been skipping over your posts without reading them since Page 2 of this thread. I can't speak for the general public, but I just wanted to give some feedback on how at least one person finds your point of view. Maybe to save you some time and effort. Honestly, no offense intended.

I also must give kudos to Magsau, with all due respect to StewGuy's post. Unless I've missed something, it seems like he's turned over a new leaf since the bloodbaths of 2 years ago.

 

[oldiebutgoody]

Captain Ron is still in deep denial. The truth will be evident soon enough. While it is possible that the name United Airlines may be around for a while, the UAL of today WILL SOON CEASE TO EXIST. Count on it.

 

[ohcaptainron]

[blockquote]
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On 9/19/2002 8:05:07 AM oldiebutgoody wrote:

Captain Ron is still in deep denial. The truth will be evident soon enough. While it is possible that the name United Airlines may be around for a while, the UAL of today WILL SOON CEASE TO EXIST. Count on it
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Deep denial, can you explain? I have said over and over again the industry is a basketcase, the network carriers will need to adopt a plan of drastic action in order to survive, employees must accept the financial realities in terms of compensation and expectations. UAL in particular will either restructure its costs in or outside the ATSB in or outside the Bankruptcy court. It really is that simple in terms of options if I am in denial of some other possibilities like liquidation which by way looks more and more possible at US, its only because we still have 5.5 BILLION in cash and unencumbered assets.
Will UAL cease to exist? I do not know in the long run and frankly you do not either, but it is more likly UAL will than I think you are prepared to admit.
The whole industry without additional goverment intervention is headed to the lowest common denominator, which is currently the US airways model. I do not get any pleasure from saying that CHIP if you are listining, but it is accurate.
Count on it.

 

[ohcaptainron]

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On 9/19/2002 1:13:13 AM chipmunn wrote:

Chip asked: Would you care to identify yourself, Captain Courageous?

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Ohcaptainron answered: Sure chipper, anytime offline: Offer stands.
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Do you take pleasure in purposely mispronouncing somebody's name, which I consider an insult?
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No not really, but you do come off as so self important from time to time I thought Chipper was more down to earth. Please accept my apology.
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Chip concludes: There is reason to believe much of Ohcaptainron’s comments are inaccurate, misleading, and his intentions are transparent.
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OK CHIP, describe which comments are inaccurate, which ones are misleading, and I have already admitted that many of my opinions are pro UAL not unlike your pro US spin, something that you have NEVER admitted.. While I state my sources you quote sources close to the ATSB, elite circles of american civil aviation etc. Chip you cannot have it both ways. You want credability, state what you know factually, where it came from exactly, and when you draw conclusions please be clear that they are yours and yours alone, conjecture,theory, opinion, hearsay, not as if your opinions are comming from the mountaintop and we will get along just fine. Have a nice day CHIP.

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[chipmunn]

Captainron:

I'm not going to go tit for tat with you, trade insults, or reveal sources that speak with me in confidence. I will not destroy a relationship over an Internet message board, although I stand by every statement I’ve made.

I believe your US message board activity and motivation is transparent. Why not focus on the UA message board during your crisis?

In regard to a corporate combination, its unfortunate that the majority of the UA employees can't seem to understand a business opportunity when presented or maybe it should be said they do not want to understand the business opportunity because their thought process is obscured by a personal interest.

Regardless, there is much more going on here that is being discussed within the halls of the Treasury Department, Andrew Card's staff (in particular with Carlos Spineza), and the hallways of the CCY & WHQ Executive Suites.

Will something more occur or even will the proposed UA-US code share be implemented, I do not know because there are so many moving parts to the problems at both company's. However, again, do not be surprised if something develops with or without employee support, which could be a “unique corporate transactionâ€￾.

Chip

 

[UAL777flyer]

Chip,

You cannot blame the employees of UA for being against another go at a UA/US merger or merger-esque transaction. The last merger attempt was crammed down the throats of the employees. Instead of focusing their attention on negotiating the post-ESOP contracts on time (which Goodwin PROMISED he would do), they slid them to the back burner while they pursued the merger with US, which was financed off the billions of dollars the company made in the mid-to-late 1990's thanks to the ESOP contributions of those same employees. Basically it was a business school textbook case of absolutely attrocious senior management and a total lack of leadership, as well as totally mis-managed expectations. If I had a dime for every time I personally heard Rono Dutta say we simply underestimated the expectations of employees coming out of the ESOP, I could have retired by now. You've gotta be kidding me. What world was he living in DURING the ESOP? Virtually every company survey distributed to employees painted the picture that there was no joy in Muddville. Goodwin and Dutta simply were out of touch. So their actions during the merger left a very, very bad taste in the mouths of employees. They did VERY little to sell the deal to the workforce in terms of why we needed it and the benefits to the employees and the company. So when employees hear merger with US, what do you think goes through their minds?

Let's also remember that we all have thousands of employees on furlough with more certainly to follow. Most of those folks probably won't have a shot at recall for awhile, given the sluggish economy and another potential war with Iraq on the near horizon. US in in Ch.11 and large cuts have happened and more may come. UA, no matter how we restructure, will get smaller. So more employees here will go away, as well as airplanes and routes.

I'll be the first to admit that a combination of UA and US makes great business sense in terms of network coverage, frequent flier base, city presence, S-curve economics, domestic U.S. market share, etc. Looks great on paper, right? But in reality, merging two airlines is a nasty, difficult thing to bring off that leaves scars that NEVER go away. So using the ATSB and Ch.11 to force a combination of some sort between UA/US would devastate the employees. Now some might say that because of bankruptcy, the concerns of employees would be irrelevant. You're right. But that's not my point. My point is what do you think the climate/culture of the combined airline would be AFTER emergence from Ch.11 as you try to integrate? It would be a nightmare. Antagonism would be high. Morale would be low. What kind of customer service do you think will be delivered? These are all issues that simply cannot be ignored by merely saying that bankruptcy renders the concerns of employees irrelevant, so therefore the merger makes sense. I can't speak for US because I'm not an employee there. But I can speak for UA. I see the climate and culture of this company every day. These people are dying to be led and motivated by a true leader. We hope Glenn Tilton is that leader. If he isn't, than UA will whither and die. But he is trying to erase the memories of lousy leadership that have been around for the last several years. It will prove to be a Herculean task. Right now, the employees WANT to be able to trust him and WANT to be able to have faith in him. Regardless of how much business sense it makes to combine the two companies, if he were to try to do that again, before he's built up goodwill and a good track record at UA, he would be immediately lobbed into the Goodwin/Dutta category and lose all effectiveness at running this company. You might as well start another search for a CEO.

 

[ua767fo]

Chip Munn said In regard to a corporate combination, its unfortunate that the majority of the UA employees can't seem to understand a business opportunity when presented or maybe it should be said they do not want to understand the business opportunity because their thought process is obscured by a personal interest.

Chip, in a sense, your comment is right on the mark. In a sense, your dead wrong. In my view obscured (your choice word) is the wrong word. I care first and foremost about my paycheck and working conditions, business opportunity is down the list. As an ESOP participant, I view the company as my mine, to run for whom I choose, ME.

What you fail to understand that as an owner employee, my first concern is that of the employee and seniority, governing what my pay and working conditions are. It may be a great business opportunity, and I do believe the merger was, and would have been. But, that is a secondary consideration to my paycheck and quality of life. As an owner/employee, I make that decision and dont care what anyone thinks of my opinion. That includes the analytical pontificates of wall street.

Denver, CO