UA/UA merger?

[bigJ]

Fatburger,
What exactly did I say that was not civil?
As far as making an insecure statement...I'm not sure what you mean. If you mean I feel insecure about UAL employee's careers if Chip's view of what will/should be comes true, your right.
To Chip: Could you please present your view of what would/should happen to the two employee groups after your unique corporate transaction? Thanks...

 

[ohcaptainron]

cavalier:
I would agree that the industry has a new revenue
reality that will require drastic action in terms of the complete business model. Employee costs staffing levels, benifits are all part of that equation. No argument, things have to change. The entitlement mentality that some employees have must change, there also must be credible corporate leadership , vision and execution.

But if you think the message these two individuals (Chip and Antonio)bring is anything more than self serving crap, you and I will have to disagree. There arguments regarding the superior US model vs anyone elses is laughable. Let me get it straight UAL will not be able to restructute the company so US with the help of the ATSB will come riding in and save our domestic operation by taking it over. In doing so compel every other airline to adopt the BK model, if you think there is caos now in the industry hold on, if that even appears likly the goverment will have no choice but to reregulate. US AIRWAYS the poster child for profitabilty, harmonius labor relations, and company that has proven time and again that they are the leaders of the domestic airline business. Did I mention they were bankrupt? Yea right, I will put my money on UAL restructuring. Either in or out of BK. US will become a good regional feeder with the UAL code share. They are going have there hands full with all the usual players, LUV, DAL, JET BLUE, and they smell blood. Also do not rule out another competing plan for the reorganization of US AIRWAYS, I hear that the plan is being discussed at the elite levels of American civil aviation. Good luck to all of us.

 

[cavalier]

Ohcaptainron

Your ire towards these two men, Argento and Chip, comes from the truth they speak. As for individual characters mentioned I can’t speak to that. The truth is the airline industry is turned upside down forcing all of its inefficacies to fall into full light. The days of Vinny the show steward are over. The days are over for 8 hours pay and 2 hours work, for three people doing one mans job, for work rules that are simply crippling the industry. It took years for deregulation to catch up, but catch up it did with a vengeance. Labor is caught with its pants down, exposing all its glut. Upper management taking all the cream from the pot only helped this downward spiral to accelerate the death plunge. So here we are, blaming each other as children while the ship nose dives straight into an unknown and very dark abyss. So what is the answer. Maybe start by acting like grown adults, stop blaming each other and working together as a start?

 

[cavalier]

ohcaptainron

My comments were also meant to be broader than their take on U & UAL. Overall I believe they make a lot of sense. I believe they were just playing what-if with their comments. What I was really saying you understood perfectly and clearly. Easy street is about over for all the big boys and the cushy jobs they produced, and no amount of yelling and screaming will change that reality. We will all be knocked down a few notches least we all perish.

 

[Bob Owens]

So USAIR is to be the Texas Air of the new millinium! USAIR is going to go from bankruptcy to mega carrier back to bankruptcy again. This time instead of Frank Lorenzo and Junk Bonds it will be the ATSB and TPG (Texas again, damn we should have left them with Mexico!). While anything is possible I doubt it. Hopefully the lessons of the eighties will not be lost and this time the workers will fight back. Thomas Jefferson said that a little revolution is a good thing every now and then. Its time!

 

[argentomaranello]

The notion, BOB OWENS, that there is something here (or about to happen here) about which workers must fight back is exactly why the fragmentation of major portions of UAL's domestic operation into USAir isn't the long shot that it seems. What do you think is going to happen when UAL enters Ch. 11 and continues to be unable to extract realistic contract concessions from its own unions? Too many airline employees seem to feel that their employers can operate indefinately, at whatever wage rates and staffing levels have been inflicted upon them in the past by organized labor, and that the cash is always going to be there to fund the paychecks. At the moment, UAL is in a far more grave financial situation than USAir (yes, I know that USAir is in Ch. 11 and UAL isn't yet, but USAir has a far better chance, at the moment, of emerging from the bankruptcy process with decently good prospects than does UAL, once it files). I'll say one more time, the scenario by which USAir would acquire much of UAL's domestic operation is not a prediction, neither is it a likely possibility -- yet. But its something that clearly could be in the cards.

 

[argentomaranello]

OHCAPTAINRON: You seem to be a reasonable enough fellow. The fact that you are participating on these boards rather than elsewhere on the internet suggests that you are more interested in an exchange of ideas than in an exchange of insults.

But the latter course seems to be what you are charting with respect to my posts and my views. By all means, respond to my posts -- disagree vigorously if that is your wish and if it represents your point of view. But please restrain any tendencies toward personal abuse. It has no place here. Take it to Yahoo!

 

[oldiebutgoody]

[blockquote]
----------------
On 9/15/2002 6:07:26 PM Bob Owens wrote:

So USAIR is to be the Texas Air of the new millinium! USAIR is going to go from bankruptcy to mega carrier back to bankruptcy again. This time instead of Frank Lorenzo and Junk Bonds it will be the ATSB and TPG (Texas again, damn we should have left them with Mexico!). While anything is possible I doubt it. Hopefully the lessons of the eighties will not be lost and this time the workers will fight back. Thomas Jefferson said that a little revolution is a good thing every now and then. Its time!
----------------
[/blockquote]
The revolution IS presently occurring, and will get to AA soon enough. Your diatribe of misinformation which is apparently aimed at inciting somekind of liquidation at U will not help your situation at all; in fact, it may likely hurt ALL other airline employees by giving CEOs more leverage in negotiating. You can bet that shortly, most likely before the holidays, that YOUR management will be crying poverty and insisting on paycuts and reduced benefits. Then you'll get to see what it looks like from U's present perspective to see poorly informed third parties try to impose their views from the audience. My personal feeling is that U is simply the first to arrive at the courthouse door due to their past financial mismanagement, but that they have a greatly improved chance of survival due to the actions of Mr. Siegel and his team. The vote count this week will be VERY telling, but I really don't feel that it will make a huge difference in the survival of U, just how many people work here and which jobs are farmed out. I believe that management would like to make this a friendlier transition to the new US Airways, but apparently certain memebers of the IAM and CWA want otherwise. It could be a VERY bleak holiday season for lots of IAM and CWA members!

 

[UAL777flyer]

Argento,

I was merely replying to chip's response about a transfer of employees. And let's be honest, LOTS of issues get talked about in this business every day that never reach the light of day. My opinion is that a forced merger of UA and US would be a devastating mistake. It may be easy for a UA outsider to take the view that a forced merger would be good and that employee issues are irrelevant. Well, you'd need to understand that internal strife is rampant at UA and is a powderkeg waiting to go off. This new CEO will lose any credibility, trust and respect if he attempts to pull off another merger with US financed off the backs of employees concessions and furloughs. I realize that in Ch.11, anything can happen. I'm not debating that this type of deal is possible. I'm merely saying that it would be a huge mistake. It's easy to look way out to the promised land of full integration and revenue synergy, while overlooking the very long and difficult process of going through that integration with a workforce that is full of anger, hatred and disgust. That is a recipe for disaster. I stand by my view that UA should fix itself first and lay a foundation for internal growth when we're on stable financial ground and the economic climate is better. I'm in favor of the codeshare. But I'm against another run at a merger.

 

[chipmunn]

Hi BigJ:

BigJ asked: Could you please present your view of what would/should happen to the two employee groups after your unique corporate transaction?

Chip answers: Good question, but much of this depends on any potential deal and how it is constructed between the parties. If it's an asset sale there may not be any employee transfer just like the Pan Am LHR transfer to UA. However, in the case of the pilots a seniority list could be put together per ALPA Merger & Fragmentation policy. I do not know for sure, but the other common unions would likely have their own integration protocol and Dave Siegel could select the MSP employees to join US.

Chip

 

[chipmunn]

UAL777flyer:

UAL777flyer said: My opinion is that a forced merger of UA and US would be a devastating mistake.

Chip comments: Throughout our conversation I have never said there would be a merger between our two company’s, nor do I believe a merger will occur, at least in a traditional sense. What we are discussing is a unique corporate transaction or an asset sale or fragmentation of UA’s domestic system, gates, slots, equipment, and maybe some employees to US post bankruptcy, just like when UA bought Pan Am assets.

The financing could be provided form the joint loan guarantee funds with additional Texas Pacific investment, similar to what David Bonderman did with CO & HP.

But, I believe the major business problem for UAL is the ESOP and governance issue. In fact, it wouldn’t surprise me if the ATSB requires UAL to file bankruptcy to eliminate the ESOP and employee veto control. In addition, since the OMB guidelines provide enormous power for the Bush Administration through the ATSB to force consolidation, there is reason to believe there is more going on here than most people realize.

I agree with Argento’s comment of, “At the moment, UAL is in a far more grave financial situation than USAir (yes, I know that USAir is in Ch. 11 and UAL isn't yet, but USAir has a far better chance, at the moment, of emerging from the bankruptcy process with decently good prospects than does UAL, once it files). I'll say one more time, the scenario by which USAir would acquire much of UAL's domestic operation is not a prediction, neither is it a likely possibility -- yet. But its something that clearly could be in the cards.â€

UAL777flyer, you are correct UA is “powderkeg waiting to go offâ€, which in the government’s view may be just one more reason to force a bankruptcy or withhold the loan guarantee, which would have the same effect.

Chip

 

[chipmunn]

Magsau:

Magsau asked: Could you provide your insiders link the the reports you have on the above?

Chip answers: The Washington Post, Wall Street Jurnal, & Crain's.

Chip

 

[GGpillow]

Chip, you need to do more research on ESOP if you're going to make statements like this. A ch 11 filing will not get rid of the employee BOD seats. I am not saying their is no way that it could happen, but it s not nearly as simple as you, and many folks seem to think. In fact, it is most unlikely those seats will ever go away. PM if u need furthur info.

 

[bigJ]

Chip,
So how do you envision any deal being constructed between the parties? As far as an asset sale, UAL did take Pan Am pilots with purchases, but ignoring that, how do you think Alpa's policy would apply to an integration? I personally find it laughable to think that U will be acquiring UAL's domestic assets, doesn't mean it could never happen, but then anyone can win the lottery right?...Does this mean you'll be flying a UAL, er U 777 instead of a 400?
Who are the MSP employees?

 

[welsh44]

If Wolfe got parity, he'd take a HUGE pay cut!