UA/CO............ AA ?

[MCI transplant]

Its' a shame that most of you over at AA view any/all mergers as an opportunity do dismantle the airline that you paid Millions to purchase. Maybe AA should try to capitalize on what they buy instead of ruining it. We can all see how well that has lead AA to profitability over the years. DL has been thru several mergers over the years, and have manged not to dismantle the airlines that they purchased. Not saying that some pruning didn't have to be done, but destroying what you buy is pure stupidity on AA's part.

------" AA capitalize on what they buy"!!?------- Now that's the biggest joke I've hard in a long time!!!! I've seen them through away millions $$$ in equipment and tooling, and dismantle some of the best repair shops in the industry! Laid off AMT's with combined experience of hundreds of years!!! All because it was politically expedient to do so at the time!

 

[Hopeful]

------" AA capitalize on what they buy"!!?------- Now that's the biggest joke I've hard in a long time!!!! I've seen them through away millions $$$ in equipment and tooling, and dismantle some of the best repair shops in the industry! Laid off AMT's with combined experience of hundreds of years!!! All because it was politically expedient to do so at the time!

Here we go again, TWA people were not the only airline people to get screwed. Remember Eastern? PanAm? Braniff? National? just to name a few.

Everyone needs to understand airline mergers are the preferred method of eliminating another airline. Overlapping routes, facilities, different fleet types...etc etc...always result in layoffs and airports served.

Get used to it.

 

[MCI transplant]

Here we go again, TWA people were not the only airline people to get screwed. Remember Eastern? PanAm? Braniff? National? just to name a few.

Everyone needs to understand airline mergers are the preferred method of eliminating another airline. Overlapping routes, facilities, different fleet types...etc etc...always result in layoffs and airports served.

Get used to it.

<_< ------- Hopeful, your correct about all the above Airlines! But we weren't talking about people getting screwed! We were talking about AA throwing away millions in "acquired assists" that were worth, potentially millions!!!! And I can give you examples if needed!!!

 

[Joe Patroni]

<_< ------- Hopeful, your correct about all the above Airlines! But we weren't talking about people getting screwed! We were talking about AA throwing away millions in "acquired assists" that were worth, potentially millions!!!! And I can give you examples if needed!!!

That is th AA way of doing things. Buy an airline, sell the routes and airplanes, and keep the people. I never could figure out the logic (if there was any to begin with).

 

[JFK Fleet Service]

Just seems to me that AA folks assume that AA will dismantle this and that if they merge with anyone today.

With the cadre of bean counting spread sheet worshipers we have running the airline now? They'd take one look at the AS network and after recovering from the collective heart attack,take the axe to it.

Like I said, we've watched it happen over and over again.Joe Patroni is right, we close the facilities, stop flying the routes, park the airplanes but keep the people.

Personally I'd like to see organic growth as opposed to store bought growth.But that would entail actual leadership, not merely staying the course and hoping to lose less than Wall Street expects.

Again, this is a moot point because the place will explode faster than the Hindenburg if they announce a corporate transaction while crying poor mouth for the past 2+ years in negotiations.

 

[wcs]

It is very obvious that AA hasn't discovered a way to bolster their operation with assets that they have spent cash to purchase.

To qualify your statment; "Under the current management administration,...."
Under Crandall there was the South American route purchase and the LHR route purchase. Both incredibly successful. The OC acquisition not so much.
The current (I'm including Carty here since there's so much of that left over) administration has been a failure in use of purchased assets. QQ and TW have been virtually eliminated with small remnants of the assets remaining. The people and their knowledge have been squandered.
I can't be hypocritical since I supported the TW acquisition in the beginning. But from the start nothing was done to develop the assets and they were allowed to crumble.

 

[Bob Owens]

That is th AA way of doing things. Buy an airline, sell the routes and airplanes, and keep the people. I never could figure out the logic (if there was any to begin with).

You left out using the aquired debt as leverage to gain more concessions. remember how in 2003 the company claimed they lost $3billion, a large portion of that $3 billion was "Goodwill" losses tied to the purchase of TWA, in other words no actual cash or assett was lost with Goodwill since its a write down of an intangible assett. "Goodwill" is a legalized scam to allow corporations to avoid paying taxes and an effective propaganda tool to get employees to think that companies that they work for are losing more money than they are.

 

[TWU informer]

You left out using the aquired debt as leverage to gain more concessions. remember how in 2003 the company claimed they lost $3billion, a large portion of that $3 billion was "Goodwill" losses tied to the purchase of TWA, in other words no actual cash or assett was lost with Goodwill since its a write down of an intangible assett. "Goodwill" is a legalized scam to allow corporations to avoid paying taxes and an effective propaganda tool to get employees to think that companies that they work for are losing more money than they are.

What is term for the legalized scam when the union buys in and signs off on concessions without further ratification by the membership? Would that be called ill Will? Does the Union Man write this off as a charitable contribution?

 

[Hopeful]

What is term for the legalized scam when the union buys in and signs off on concessions without further ratification by the membership? Would that be called ill Will? Does the Union Man write this off as a charitable contribution?

Unfortunately, the scam is legal as per the TWU Constitution.
In many ways, unions are alot like Congress...You may think they are accountable to the members as you may think members of Congress are accountable to the taxpayer.....But they are only accountable to themselves.

 

[MCI transplant]

To qualify your statment; "Under the current management administration,...."
Under Crandall there was the South American route purchase and the LHR route purchase. Both incredibly successful. The OC acquisition not so much.
The current (I'm including Carty here since there's so much of that left over) administration has been a failure in use of purchased assets. QQ and TW have been virtually eliminated with small remnants of the assets remaining. The people and their knowledge have been squandered.
I can't be hypocritical since I supported the TW acquisition in the beginning. But from the start nothing was done to develop the assets and they were allowed to crumble.

<_< -------What we ran into when TWA was bought was wall of arrogance.--------- "We bought you! You were the failed Airline! Why are you questioning our judgment? Stand back! We know best!" 😉 That arrogance is still prevalent today. All you have to do is follow the progress, or lack of it, of your contract negotiations to see it!

 

[TWU informer]

<_< -------What we ran into when TWA was bought was wall of arrogance.--------- "We bought you! You were the failed Airline! Why are you questioning our judgment? Stand back! We know best!" 😉 That arrogance is still prevalent today. All you have to do is follow the progress, or lack of it, of your contract negotiations to see it!

We tried to tell the folks at MCI about the TWU ways, a union against your seniority , a union against you from the start.
You folks bought into their fear a lies so you really shouldnt blame everyone and everything else. You had options placed within your grasp and you chose the worst possible path.

AA Management has been AArogant for years, it is the failure of our union representation to do anything to change this that really bothers me. One would expect management to be this way, that is why we need the union to begin with.

After visiting MCI during the AMFA campaign I was shocked to see those failed by industrial unionism still on board the powder keg wagon. And then banging the TWU drum after the IAM shafted them.

Bottom line MCI and TWA employees was the key to the TWU and AA preventing a Union Representation Election.
At least accept that fact while you bang your drum blaming everyone else around you. It is fact and you know it.

 

[FWAAA]

You left out using the aquired debt as leverage to gain more concessions. remember how in 2003 the company claimed they lost $3billion, a large portion of that $3 billion was "Goodwill" losses tied to the purchase of TWA, in other words no actual cash or assett was lost with Goodwill since its a write down of an intangible assett. "Goodwill" is a legalized scam to allow corporations to avoid paying taxes and an effective propaganda tool to get employees to think that companies that they work for are losing more money than they are.

That's not exactly how I remember it, and my memory lines up with the actual facts. From page 23 the 2002 10-K:

Results of Operations

AMR's net loss in 2002 was $3.5 billion, or $22.57 per share. AMR's net loss in 2001 was $1.8 billion, or $11.43 per share. The Company's 2002 results include a one-time, non-cash charge to record the cumulative effect of a change in accounting, effective January 1, 2002, of $988 million, or $6.35 per share, to write-off all of AMR's goodwill upon the adoption of Statement of Financial Accounting Standards Board No. 142 "Goodwill and Other Intangible Assets" (see Note 4 to the consolidated financial statements). The Company's 2002 results were adversely impacted by the continued economic slowdown and the residual effects of the September 11, 2001 terrorist attacks as discussed in Part A of Item 1. For a discussion of the events of September 11, 2001, see Note 3 to the consolidated financial statements.

http://phx.corporate-ir.net/phoenix.zhtml?c=117098&p=irol-SECText&TEXT=aHR0cDovL2NjYm4uMTBrd2l6YXJkLmNvbS94bWwvZmlsaW5nLnhtbD9yZXBvPXRlbmsmaXBhZ2U9MjEwNTU1NCZhdHRhY2g9T04mc1hCUkw9MQ%3d%3d

The loss was $2.0 billion for 2002, not counting the billion dollar goodwill writeoff (which was required by changes in the accounting standards that were enacted prior to the September 11 attacks and became effective Jan 1, 2002) and the $500 million of other special charges (mostly writedowns in aircraft values). The accounting change to writeoff the goodwill wasn't discretionary - AMR had to do it. No doubt someone in the worthless union told you that the loss was $3.5 billion to scare you, but the company's claims could not have been more clear. From the press release accompanying the fourth quarter 2002 loss:

For full year 2002, AMR reported a net loss of $2.0 billion before special items, and $3.5 billion -- $22.57 per share -- after special items. For 2001, the Company reported a net loss of $1.4 billion before special items, and $1.8 billion -- or $11.43 per share -- after special items.

http://phx.corporate-ir.net/phoenix.zhtml?c=117098&p=irol-SECText&TEXT=aHR0cDovL2NjYm4uMTBrd2l6YXJkLmNvbS94bWwvZmlsaW5nLnhtbD9yZXBvPXRlbmsmaXBhZ2U9MTk4MDMyOSZhdHRhY2g9T04mc1hCUkw9MQ%3d%3d

Looks pretty clear to me that AA correctly reported its $2 billion loss (excluding special items) for 2002 and $1.4 billion loss (also excluding special items) for 2001. Perhaps someone in the worthless union mentioned a $3.4 billion loss for the two years and some misinterpreted the message to mean one year. $3.4 billion in net losses not counting special items in for two years was a huge. Counting the special items (mostly goodwill and aircraft value writeoffs), the losses for the two years 2001-02 were $5.3 billion.

 

[eolesen]

Like I said, we've watched it happen over and over again.Joe Patroni is right, we close the facilities, stop flying the routes, park the airplanes but keep the people.

Personally I'd like to see organic growth as opposed to store bought growth.But that would entail actual leadership, not merely staying the course and hoping to lose less than Wall Street expects.

All of you commenting on prior acquisitions are ignoring the most important reasons for an acquisition.

Customers

Organic growth is great, but you're never guaranteed of getting (let alone retaining) customers just by flying a new route. More often than not, customers "bought" as part of the acquisition will stick with the new company. There are a few notable exceptions to this (e.g. there are still former Marshall Field's customers still boycotting Macy's) but for the most part it's held up with airline mergers.

When AA bought out TW and honored the points accrued in Aviators, they kept a lot more of those customers than they would have if they'd have simply dispersed after going out of business. Likewise with US & HP, and certainly with DL & NW. Not sure how it will hold up with CO & UA, but in places like EWR, they're going to fly out of EWR regardless of the name on the side of the plane or on the frequent flyer card...

 

[MCI transplant]

We tried to tell the folks at MCI about the TWU ways, a union against your seniority , a union against you from the start.
You folks bought into their fear a lies so you really shouldnt blame everyone and everything else. You had options placed within your grasp and you chose the worst possible path.

AA Management has been AArogant for years, it is the failure of our union representation to do anything to change this that really bothers me. One would expect management to be this way, that is why we need the union to begin with.

After visiting MCI during the AMFA campaign I was shocked to see those failed by industrial unionism still on board the powder keg wagon. And then banging the TWUshouldn't drum after the IAM shafted them.

Bottom line MCI and TWA employees was the key to the TWU and AA preventing a Union Representation Election.
At least accept that fact while you bang your drum blaming everyone else around you. It is fact and you know it.

<_< - Informer, ------Your quick to point fingers, and what is in the past, is just that, in the past! MCI at that time had maybe 1,000 to 1, 400 AMT's working here at MCI. Your saying it's because of them that your AMFA drive didn't fly? --------I could just as easily say it was TUL fault because you couldn't muster more votes there! How many people did they have working there at that time?-------- But like I said, the past is the past.------ But back to AA, Example of how AA management could have saved some money, but chose not too.: --------- Back when we were doing heavy "C" checks on 767's. A fresh aircraft was coming into the dock, our Inspection Supervisor was reviewing the incoming paperwork, when he noticed a notation in back of the files. It said that this aircraft was scheduled to have all it;s pneumatic ducting removed and reheat treated because of a manufacturing screw up by Boeing and Boeing was picking up the tab under warranty. It also stated that AA was outsourcing this work because they didn't have the tooling necessary to do the job.--------- Well, guess what!!!------ WE DID! It seems we had the same problem with our TWA 747's. We tooled up and did the work in house! And low and behold it was still in place, and we also had the people who know how to use it! ------- Well, to make a long story short, our Supervisor, contacted TUL, told them we could do the job and save that money. Now this was just one Aircraft, and supposedly their were more, so we're talking a good sum of money here. ------Will, their answer to all this was silence, and a month later they had a crew of people come up from TUL to tear that tooling out!------- That my Friend is just one example, and there are more!

 

[BoeingBoy]

But, and you seem to agree with me, it really would not benefit either AA or AK for them to merge.

Basically I agree, although maybe for a somewhat different reason. What I a significant amount of revenue to AS, thanks to those flights to isolated towns, villages, settlements, is not as significant to an airline the size of AA. Whether AA or any other "lower 48" network carrier like US would view the few hundred million in revenue per quarter from that source worth the trouble of having combi 737's and the infrastructure/procedures needed to maintain that service (like tankering fuel into those remote spots so as to have a supply on hand when needed) is something that would be "small potatoes" to even US.

I can easily see even US turning the intra-Alaska flights over to express type flying and there goes that freight revenue.

Jim