Twu Survey-do Not Discard

[Ken MacTiernan]

Jim Little called out for change, he knows the union is fragmenting and tried to do something about it. The membership chose to ignore his reaching out. They had the chance to make a change and ignored it.

The real reasons are the membership;
1. Is Lazy
2. Don't care
3. Are sick of the Amfa/TWU struggle
4. Believe the TWU is not broke and no changes are needed.
5. :down: :down: :down:

[post="200685"][/post]​

mojo, you know exactly what the problems are with the twu. little knows, sonny knew too. The membership did not ignore anything. In fact the membership sent a loud message. We all know surveys put out by the twu mean nothing except for the printers making the surveys. The twu will not and can not change from within. The twu is not fragmented. IT IS BROKEN/INEPT!

twu members had a chance to change but the NMB ruled with the company and twu in allowing an inflated list of eligible voters in a representational election.

Reasons the twu is broken:

1. International officers are appointed & not elected.
2. AMTs are tired of lies and half truths.
3. The twu is the leader in concessions.
4. The twu allowed AMT jobs to be taken from AMTs and given to ramp.
5. The twu fights against their members instead of for them.
6. The twu international officers don't take pay cuts when AMTs do.
7. The twu can attempt to defend themselves only by individuals hiding behind an alias. (Except you mojo because I know this is your name.)

 

[Nightwatch]

mojo, you know exactly what the problems are with the twu. little knows, sonny knew too. The membership did not ignore anything. In fact the membership sent a loud message. We all know surveys put out by the twu mean nothing except for the printers making the surveys. The twu will not and can not change from within. The twu is not fragmented. IT IS BROKEN/INEPT!

twu members had a chance to change but the NMB ruled with the company and twu in allowing an inflated list of eligible voters in a representational election.

Reasons the twu is broken:

1. International officers are appointed & not elected.
2. AMTs are tired of lies and half truths.
3. The twu is the leader in concessions.
4. The twu allowed AMT jobs to be taken from AMTs and given to ramp.
5. The twu fights against their members instead of for them.
6. The twu international officers don't take pay cuts when AMTs do.
7. The twu can attempt to defend themselves only by individuals hiding behind an alias. (Except you mojo because I know this is your name.)

[post="200742"][/post]​

Hey Ken, it's time to flip that record over, it's beginning to warp. *hides behind an alias*...peekaboo!

 

[Hackman]

So Hack, you willing to use your knowledge to assist? You probably do know more than I about our situations of our industry. How do we fix it man? Without using the union BS, suppose for an instant we have no union in any airline, what direction would you advise to secure our employment?

I ask this in a true way. No trick here. We argue over articles/times that serve no purpose in retaining our profession stateside.

I have a new direction, forget AMFA/TWU/IBT/IAM , it's time to coordinate ourselves, they aren't doing it.

[post="200512"][/post]​

I am assisting, I am doing what I can to get the twu out the door at AA. Fixing our industry is a large problem, it starts for us with our profession in one union. The iam, twu, ibt have had decades to show us something, to show is unity and leadership, short of the stand at Eastern, they are not getting the job done.

AMFA has shown the willingness to go to the wire, taking on NWA all the way to a PEB, and the NWA AMFA membership rolling tool boxes out the door in preperation for a strike.

Now Nighty, I would ask you now, do you think the twu International would
have the balls to call something like this? They have always caved in to the company since I have been here. I don't see anything changing with the cowards we have running the twu dog and pony show. Don't tell me the twu mantra, "the membership is the union". It starts with officers of the union, and we have sellout cowards who are bought off by the man.

When are the twu International going to lead? Never is right. They would rather blame the membership for their failures. You can't have a football team without a coach, and ours ran home to be with his AA mommy a long time ago.

BTW, the afl-cio, twu, ibt, and iam have shown they want nothing to do with AMFA, or any of its members, and thats just fine with me.

 

[NyQuill]

BTW, the afl-cio, twu, ibt, and iam have shown they want nothing to do with AMFA, or any of its members, and thats just fine with me.

I believe it has been the other way around, how else could they have raided?

Explain this Mr. Hackman sir. If you have , for 20 years, suffered under the TWU/AA contracts, who voted those contacts? You stated in earlier posts that the majority of mechanics and related wish to be represented by your AMFA, true? That being said, the majority also voted for concessions and past contracts.

It starts with the officers? Wrong statement. It begins with the membership, they delegate to the officers their desires of a contract, or perhaps you need to get just a bit more involved. I know, let me hear how the big bad TWU won't let you play....HAHAHA!!!

 

[Hackman]

I believe it has been the other way around, how else could they have raided?

Explain this Mr. Hackman sir. If you have , for 20 years, suffered under the TWU/AA contracts, who voted those contacts? You stated in earlier posts that the majority of mechanics and related wish to be represented by your AMFA, true? That being said, the majority also voted for concessions and past contracts.

It starts with the officers? Wrong statement. It begins with the membership, they delegate to the officers their desires of a contract, or perhaps you need to get just a bit more involved. I know, let me hear how the big bad TWU won't let you play....HAHAHA!!!

[post="200810"][/post]​

No Dippy, the afl-cio has stated they want AMFA out, sore losers I guess. AA Raided? I guess thats your twisted iam/afl-cio version of what we at AA/AMFA like to call "change from within".... a boot in the worthless twu's arse. The AMFA was asked to come to AA by me and 9000+ of my co-workers. Understand? Of course you don't. BTW, how is that twu card drive doing? Did you start one somewhere yet?

Since your new to the twu, I'll tell you about a twu vote, since I have been through several. First, the company grabs the closest twu International boy by the short hairs and tells them what they want, and whats in it for the twu sellouts. Second. the twu puts out the fear and parrots the "AA is going right to Chapt 7 liquidation" statements to instill that fear in the membership that the company wants. Third, twu dupes and twu company men then vote as they are told, and if its close, well...lets just say the company always gets what they want from the twu. The backlash after the membership finds out how bad they got stuck is countered with what you so eloquently state: "the majority also voted for concessions and past contracts". So there you are, no further ratification necessary. Jimmy Do-little gets his appointmemt to twu International V.P. for the sellout, while his membership suffers under the worst concessions ever conceived out of BK. Don't forget we now include the layoffs to finish it off.

When you figure out how to delegate the membership desires to the twu International, you let us know. They will laugh in your face and throw you out like like yesterdays trash, but go ahead and try it anyway. You better hurry though, because it looks like the 12000 jobs and 3 maintenance bases the twu saved didn't include you. In your words: HAHAHA!!!! :blink:

 

[Bob Owens]

Less than 10% of the membership submitted a survey so that tells me no change is needed at the ATD.

[post="200475"][/post]​

Less than 10%? So can we take that to mean that less than 10% want toparticipate in a union that removes elected officers?

 

[Bob Owens]

So Hack, you willing to use your knowledge to assist? You probably do know more than I about our situations of our industry. How do we fix it man? Without using the union BS, suppose for an instant we have no union in any airline, what direction would you advise to secure our employment?

I ask this in a true way. No trick here. We argue over articles/times that serve no purpose in retaining our profession stateside.

I have a new direction, forget AMFA/TWU/IBT/IAM , it's time to coordinate ourselves, they aren't doing it.

[post="200512"][/post]​

Well for a little over three years I offered suggestions. When Chuck and I criticized them for their incompetance they removed us.

The survey was bull, it did not ask the right questions.

When Little came into power he put forth a lot of Bull about how he was going to change things.

He changed nothing, at least nothing that the members wanted.

 

[Nightwatch]

So Mr. Little screwed up when he put a deaf ear to Mr. Owens, how dare he?

 

[Bob Owens]

Wasn't it you guys that stated the TWAers never met a concession they didn't like? When in reality, if your 20 years is correct, have been giving longer than MCI and STL. Kind of the "pot calling the kettle black", or are you spewing misinformation?

[post="200704"][/post]​

You must have misunderstood, I just meant some of you guys at MCI. According to the TWAers we have here, MCI was to TWA what TUL is to AA, a sure fire way to get concessionary contracts put in place. The last card drive proves that Tulsa can change, or at least enough of it at any rate, however it did not say the same thing about MCI.

Over that entire 20-year concessionary period only one contract passed out of New York, and that was the one right after 9-11. The concessions of 2003 were voted down by 90%. I would guess that the same trend was true at TWA.

A few days back you were calling for a nationwide wildcat strike, why was that? You didnt see any reason to fight before, you didnt care about your brothers in New York and other high cost areas who had to live on the job or work two of them in order to get by but now that you might be adversely affect you feel that everyone else should be willing to risk what little they have left, thanks to you, in order to protect you.

You know, I would not mind striking to keep you working, but knowing that you could care less about us makes the thought of wildcatting out of the question. Sure we would go out and wildcat and the first thing that you guys would do is say that in order to cut costs to keep your job you would be willing to cut our pay. While you guys would still be coasting along with a job that pays better than most we would be hard pressed to even pay our property tax. When we complain you would just say, nobody told you to live in New York, even though the operations in New York and other high cost areas generate the money that pays you.

The sad fact is that we would probably be better off without you, and thats only because you guys are not willing to fight to protect your brothers and you use your ballots to remove our ability to legally fight. So that puts us in an unenviable postion; As unionists and mechanics we want to protect the profession, keep the work "in house", "ALL OF IT", and keep pay and benifits at a level that gives us a good standard of living but by doing so, since the company determines where to put overhaul, which is where the majority of the mechanics end up, and they choose to do so in very cheap areas of the country to live we end up with our own fellow mechanics slitting our throats because they dont want to fight. In order to keep the work in house, we end up having to look for work in order to pay our bills. The guys in the the cheap cost of living areas have enough financial cushion to give and they end up forgetting that its the guys out on the line working nights weekends and holidays that not only provide the money that pays them but also provides them the leverage and the ability to shut down the company. If MCI walked off the job would operations outside of MCI be affected? Probably not, but on the other hand when JFK had "the siege" the whole system was affected. A while later, in 2001 the company claimed that "10 mechanics" at JFK were having a job action that resulted in the cancellation of over 400 flights. Hey they said it not me. So if 10 mechanics at JFK, out of over 400 can have a job action that results in over 400 cancellation imagine what would happen if 4000 line mechanics walked off the job! Now compare that to what would happen if all 1500 of you walked off the job, with all 5000 in Tulsa working, and the 1500 in AFW.

The fact is that even if all three bases went out, unless the line went out also, even though there are only 4000 of us, operations would see minimul disruptions, yet some of you guys treat us like we should be beholden to you. We dont expect you to be beholden to us, just a little consideration about how we are going to be able to give to our families what you take for granted is all we expect.

Yea you are right, the TWU has been leading the industry in concessions, still doesnt change the fact that you guys havent seen a concession you did not like, after all if MCI had not voted then the 2003 concessions would have been voted down. I'll even admit that the concessions that the TWU put in place pressured your company to seek concessions from you, and eventually put TWA in BK. But now that you are here, if anything, you have made the task of trying to make things better even harder. The concession vote of 2003 proved that.

 

[Nightwatch]

You must have misunderstood, I just meant some of you guys at MCI. According to the TWAers we have here, MCI was to TWA what TUL is to AA, a sure fire way to get concessionary contracts put in place. The last card drive proves that Tulsa can change, or at least enough of it at any rate, however it did not say the same thing about MCI.

Over that entire 20-year concessionary period only one contract passed out of New York, and that was the one right after 9-11. The concessions of 2003 were voted down by 90%. I would guess that the same trend was true at TWA.

A few days back you were calling for a nationwide wildcat strike, why was that?
My wanting to fight is for OUR future, not AMFA's, not the TWU's. I am not being furloughed, at least not just yet. I recognize what is happening at UAL is setting the standard for all CEO's to follow. Didn't Arpey state he would wait and see with respect to UAL before coming to us for more?

You didn't see any reason to fight before, you didnt care about your brothers in New York and other high cost areas who had to live on the job or work two of them in order to get by but now that you might be adversely affect you feel that everyone else should be willing to risk what little they have left, thanks to you, in order to protect you.

Let me state this about my "line" brothers. There has always been a line drawn between the line and O/H bases. The line sees/portrays themselves as "heros" and the O/H sees themselves as support. I've known many a mechanic that would go to the line, vs. on the street in a furlough, only to be "blackballed" by his line brother for bumping his close friend. I've been in this profession long enough to know that line, or O/H, doesn't make you a mechanic. I've had to show some seasoned line mechs a lot of basic system protocol. Not looking for a fight here, just stating what experience I have had with the line mentality, as I am sure you have had with us in O/H.
You know, I would not mind striking to keep you working, but knowing that you could care less about us makes the thought of wildcatting out of the question. Sure we would go out and wildcat and the first thing that you guys would do is say that in order to cut costs to keep your job you would be willing to cut our pay. While you guys would still be coasting along with a job that pays better than most we would be hard pressed to even pay our property tax. When we complain you would just say, nobody told you to live in New York, even though the operations in New York and other high cost areas generate the money that pays you.

The sad fact is that we would probably be better off without you, and thats only because you guys are not willing to fight to protect your brothers and you use your ballots to remove our ability to legally fight. You mean to state "VOTE AMFA" here.So that puts us in an unenviable postion; As unionists and mechanics we want to protect the profession, keep the work "in house", "ALL OF IT", and keep pay and benifits at a level that gives us a good standard of living but by doing so, since the company determines where to put overhaul, which is where the majority of the mechanics end up, and they choose to do so in very cheap areas of the country to live we end up with our own fellow mechanics slitting our throats because they dont want to fight. In order to keep the work in house, we end up having to look for work in order to pay our bills. The guys in the the cheap cost of living areas have enough financial cushion to give and they end up forgetting that its the guys out on the line working nights weekends and holidays that not only provide the money that pays them but also provides them the leverage and the ability to shut down the company. If MCI walked off the job would operations outside of MCI be affected? Probably not, but on the other hand when JFK had "the siege" the whole system was affected. A while later, in 2001 the company claimed that "10 mechanics" at JFK were having a job action that resulted in the cancellation of over 400 flights. Hey they said it not me. So if 10 mechanics at JFK, out of over 400 can have a job action that results in over 400 cancellation imagine what would happen if 4000 line mechanics walked off the job! Now compare that to what would happen if all 1500 of you walked off the job, with all 5000 in Tulsa working, and the 1500 in AFW.

The fact is that even if all three bases went out, unless the line went out also, even though there are only 4000 of us, operations would see minimul disruptions, yet some of you guys treat us like we should be beholden to you. We dont expect you to be beholden to us, just a little consideration about how we are going to be able to give to our families what you take for granted is all we expect.

Yea you are right, the TWU has been leading the industry in concessions, still doesnt change the fact that you guys havent seen a concession you did not like, after all if MCI had not voted then the 2003 concessions would have been voted down. "So you give credit to all those "yesy" votes to MCI now?I'll even admit that the concessions that the TWU put in place pressured your company to seek concessions from you, and eventually put TWA in BK. But now that you are here, if anything, you have made the task of trying to make things better even harder. The concession vote of 2003 proved that.

[post="201160"][/post]​

Actually Bob if I remember correctly, our last BK with TWA was part of the AA/TWA merger agreement to shed debt. AA bought TWA for what...500M, then sold WorldSpan for it's part of 210M, got the routes and gates it wanted, shed the ticket agents and stews, shed 80% of the pilots , and now is adamantly going after the TWA mechs. This was bad for AA? BTW, AA also owns quite a bit of office space across the street here, KCAC, which is worth a little something. TWA was not the downfall of AA as some of you want to cry.

 

[Decision 2004]

Actually Bob if I remember correctly, our last BK with TWA was part of the AA/TWA merger agreement to shed debt. AA bought TWA for what...500M, then sold WorldSpan for it's part of 210M, got the routes and gates it wanted, shed the ticket agents and stews, shed 80% of the pilots , and now is adamantly going after the TWA mechs. This was bad for AA? BTW, AA also owns quite a bit of office space across the street here, KCAC, which is worth a little something. TWA was not the downfall of AA as some of you want to cry.

[post="201209"][/post]​

Excuse me?

The "debt was not shed", only the Ichan Carrabou Agreement.

There was a tremendous debt load that came along with purchase, not to mention the legal bills associated with disgruntled workers and BK Lawyers, and the price was more like $785 Million.

Shedding employees with severance is not cheap either.

Not to mention the cost of "C" Checks from Hell to eliminate corrosion on the poorly maintained fleet.

YES, the purchase was BAD for AA!

 

[Drippy Quill]

Excuse me?

The "debt was not shed", only the Ichan Carrabou Agreement.

There was a tremendous debt load that came along with purchase, not to mention the legal bills associated with disgruntled workers and BK Lawyers, and the price was more like $785 Million.

Shedding employees with severance is not cheap either.

Not to mention the cost of "C" Checks from Hell to eliminate corrosion on the poorly maintained fleet.

YES, the purchase was BAD for AA!

[post="201248"][/post]​

You're wrong, it was 500M, you gained 219M back with the sale of WorldSpan, you received gates/routes without having to bid in a BK salathon. Was 9-11 rough on all airlines? Yeppers! And that seems to be where the airline death began.

You go BK and retain debt? Fire the lawyers then pal, but I believe you're wrong. And as far as shedding employees with severance, you really got to be kidding me. No medical the day they walk out the door along with the discontinuance of their holiday pay and other benefit package far outways their further employment, or guess what, they'd have kept their jobs.

"C" checks from hell? Another know nothing statement from a know nothing welder, we expect nothing less from you.

 

[Bob Owens]

Actually Bob if I remember correctly, our last BK with TWA was part of the AA/TWA merger agreement to shed debt.


"Our last BK", so in other words BK was a regular part of the business plan at TWA?

AA bought TWA for what...500M, then sold WorldSpan for it's part of 210M, got the routes and gates it wanted, shed the ticket agents and stews, shed 80% of the pilots , and now is adamantly going after the TWA mechs. This was bad for AA?

Yes because AA assumed much of TWA's debt. Since buying TWA AA has returned to its former size prior to the TWA purchase.

BTW, AA also owns quite a bit of office space across the street here, KCAC, which is worth a little something.


Is it? To whom? It only has value if someone wants it. Office space in MCI is probably not the same as office space in Manhattan.

TWA was not the downfall of AA as some of you want to cry.

No its not, but it certainly did not help. But then again who cares? The question is, now that we are all in this mess what are we going to do about it? Stay on the path that put us here or try for real change, not just one of Littles PR campains.

[post="201209"][/post]​

 

[AMFAMAN]

"American Airlines Spending Spree"
This is from page 11 of issue no.2 of "Skyword", the APFA magazine.
These figures were reproduced from the APFA magazine "Skyword" and are meant to show how much money American Airlines has spent, while still refusing to settle a contract dispute with the APFA. Of course, the same situation exists between American and all of its Unions. It is interesting to note that one of the corporate logos shows a triangle, one side is labeled "Employees", the other "Stockholders" and the other "Customers". Notice how the Customers and Stockholders are being taken care of by all the corporate spending, while the employee is left out in the street.

AA Arena, Miami, Fl. $ 42,000,000.00
AA Center, Dallas Tx. $ 195,000,000.00

AA Theatre, NYC $ 8,500,000.00
777 First Class suite seats $2,880,000.00
Replace Overnead Bins (F100, S80, 757) $ 80,000,000.00
More Leg Roomin Main Cabin $ 70,000,000.00
Interior Upgrades $ 400,000,000.00
MIA Terminal Expansion $ 200,000,000.00
JFK Terminal Expansion $ 1,300,000,000.00
LAX Terminal Expansion $ 245,000,000.00
DFW Terminal B $ 120,000,000.00
SJU Eagle Terminal $ 6,000,000.00
Reno Airlines $124,000,000.00
TWA Debtor-in-Possession Financing $ 325,000,000.00
TWA Aquisition $ 742,000,000.00
TWA Debt Assumption $ 3,500,000,000.00
AA Customer Service Enhancement Programs $ 3,500,000.00
The Gov. of Mexico for the Education of Immigrants $ 1,3000,000.00
George Bush's Presidential Campaign $100,000.00
TOTAL

 

[Bob Owens]

"American Airlines Spending Spree"
This is from page 11 of issue no.2 of "Skyword", the APFA magazine.
These figures were reproduced from the APFA magazine "Skyword" and are meant to show how much money American Airlines has spent, while still refusing to settle a contract dispute with the APFA. Of course, the same situation exists between American and all of its Unions. It is interesting to note that one of the corporate logos shows a triangle, one side is labeled "Employees", the other "Stockholders" and the other "Customers". Notice how the Customers and Stockholders are being taken care of by all the corporate spending, while the employee is left out in the street.

AA Arena, Miami, Fl. $ 42,000,000.00
AA Center, Dallas Tx. $ 195,000,000.00

AA Theatre, NYC $ 8,500,000.00
777 First Class suite seats $2,880,000.00
Replace Overnead Bins (F100, S80, 757) $ 80,000,000.00
More Leg Roomin Main Cabin $ 70,000,000.00
Interior Upgrades $ 400,000,000.00
MIA Terminal Expansion $ 200,000,000.00
JFK Terminal Expansion $ 1,300,000,000.00
LAX Terminal Expansion $ 245,000,000.00
DFW Terminal B $ 120,000,000.00
SJU Eagle Terminal $ 6,000,000.00
Reno Airlines $124,000,000.00
TWA Debtor-in-Possession Financing $ 325,000,000.00
TWA Aquisition $ 742,000,000.00
TWA Debt Assumption $ 3,500,000,000.00
AA Customer Service Enhancement Programs $ 3,500,000.00
The Gov. of Mexico for the Education of Immigrants $ 1,3000,000.00
George Bush's Presidential Campaign $100,000.00
TOTAL

[post="201348"][/post]​

Well there's around 40% of the company's debt!