TWU one line local for maint.

[High Speed Steel]

Since before we were kicked out of office by the International and before we were both put back in by the Members, not once but twice, you recall the members? They are supposed to be the "Ultimate Authority".

By the way neither Chuck or I campaigned for a different Union while we were officers, The chargers were brought forth in a Kangaroo court where our accusors picked subordinates of theirs to be the Judge and Jury. We did not cae a jury of our peers, the Spanish Inquistion had nothing on Sonny Hall. The International claimed that by exposing the truth were were helping AMFA. The truth is what it is, and the truth is that the TWU is not doing a good job for our members and it needs to change the way they are doing things. What they are propsing is really more of the same, a vindictive move to silence or isolate those who object and remove as much power from them as they can, hence the decision to move all line Title II and DWH away from the Locals that wish to fight for the profession. There is no doubt that the concessions of 2003 hurt the entire profession. USAIR had to go back into BK, Delta went into BK, and United had reached a TA in BK days before we gave away the store, that agreement was scuttled by the creditors committee who no doubt felt that if AA could get what they got without going BK then UAL should be able to do better than what they did. UAL emerged from BK with better work, better equity, more Hoildays, more sick time and more Vacation than we did several years later. Since then they have moved way ahead of us and are currently in negotiations.

The ATD needs to give the decision making process back to the people the members elect, not people who are appointed who never see the members and dont even like the members. Don may be a smart guy, but he has no connection to the members and he does not have to live under the terms he helps management put in place.

For one the ATD doesn't have the authority to just give all the decision making to you. Ignoring the constitution again are you Bob? Oaths of office and authority figures apply even to you whether you like it or not...

 

[Bob Owens]

For one the ATD doesn't have the authority to just give all the decision making to you. Ignoring the constitution again are you Bob? Oaths of office and authority figures apply even to you whether you like it or not...

Officers at AA take the same oath as any other officer in the TWU but we have completely different structures.

So you admit that in the AATD that the power to make decisions is not in the hands of elected people but rather in the hands of appointed people. The fact is that the rest of the TWU is structured quite differently. The ATD rarely gets involved in negotiations and pretty much leaves the Locals alone at places like WN etc. Why would it be wrong for members at AA to have what Southwest Flight Attendants, and ramp workers, Transit Workers and pretty much the rest of the TWU, except those at AA, have? The only answer then they would not need all those people from AA at the ATD making six figure salaries. They may have to go back to the floor and live under the deals they helped put in place, or retire.

 

[Ken MacTiernan]

Patricia,

As always your input is Golden and unmatched.
Maybe since you resigned from your EBoard position so that you could promote AMFA or whatever the reason maybe you could explain why the TWU is wrong for holding their officers responsible when it comes to campaigning for a different Union. Some want a different Union and I would be the last person to say that they are wrong. When an elected officer is campaigning for a different Union "While In Office" or even a shop steward that campaigns "While a Shop Steward" then they are Indubitably Wrong!

If someone were an "Elected Officer" in AMFA and they were campaigning for IBT I ask you point blank, would that be accepted with no repercussions?

I have had this conversation on here recently with another member about TWU Officers being devout AMFA supporters. I just don't buy that it is not a conflict of interest. Just that one question is what I would like to see answered truthfully. I have asked it several times and each time it goes unanswered,

Don,

Tell me why it is wrong for the members to hold the union responsible when the union fails the members?

But holding unelected, unaccountable international officers accountable is only possible by removing the whole union. The twu has failed the membership and also failed those who were elected into office by the members. So everyone has a right to remove the twu.

You talk about AMFA officers openly promoting another union? It seems as if AMFA is listening to the membership, unlike the twu, and hence no need to seek an industrial, catch all, undemocratic, unaccountable union like the twu.

 

[AMFAinMIAMI]

Patricia,

As always your input is Golden and unmatched.
Maybe since you resigned from your EBoard position so that you could promote AMFA or whatever the reason maybe you could explain why the TWU is wrong for holding their officers responsible when it comes to campaigning for a different Union. Some want a different Union and I would be the last person to say that they are wrong. When an elected officer is campaigning for a different Union "While In Office" or even a shop steward that campaigns "While a Shop Steward" then they are Indubitably Wrong!

If someone were an "Elected Officer" in AMFA and they were campaigning for IBT I ask you point blank, would that be accepted with no repercussions?

I have had this conversation on here recently with another member about TWU Officers being devout AMFA supporters. I just don't buy that it is not a conflict of interest. Just that one question is what I would like to see answered truthfully. I have asked it several times and each time it goes unanswered,

A/C Tinker

If you want this question answered by someone YOU would have to ask an AMFA member or X AMFA member. Since we here at AA are NOT,<<<<<< YET>>>>>

Go Over to the United section and SWA section of this Forum and ask the question you will get your answer there. Then you can come back here and tell us all what you got as the answer. Simple, not to much to ask, Your just asking the wrong people. Your expecting one of us here to say something so that you can continue to put down what we are try to do here. Bring AMFA in and oust the TWU..

Look if you want to be here and support the TWU fine, You did say that you support the union in place so talk possitive about the TWU. Some thing you know about, let the rest of us bash the IBT and support AMFA.


Your NOT a TWU officer nor do you want to be. "YOU" like the TWU and fully support what they do and will continue to do.

You dont like the attitudes of some AMFA supporters, yet your doing the same thing bashing them and putting down what they believe. Get with Hewitt, Don V. Bobby G.
Gary Drumman and the rest of the TWU and push them, to all that will listen.

 

[AC Tynker]

I will answer that from my personal opinion
Competition keeps everyone on their toes. I believe that if the members are satisfied you will not have to worry about being taken over. If you are being challenged then make yourself better than the people trying to take you over.

Thank You Chuck. That doesn't answer my question but I do get where you are coming from. I agree with what you say for the most part.

 

[AC Tynker]

Don,

Tell me why it is wrong for the members to hold the union responsible when the union fails the members?

But holding unelected, unaccountable international officers accountable is only possible by removing the whole union. The twu has failed the membership and also failed those who were elected into office by the members. So everyone has a right to remove the twu.

You talk about AMFA officers openly promoting another union? It seems as if AMFA is listening to the membership, unlike the twu, and hence no need to seek an industrial, catch all, undemocratic, unaccountable union like the twu.

Dorthy,

I am sure that I didn't say it was wrong to hold anyone responsible. What I have asked is point blank elected officers not membership. Not sure what more I could add to make it more understandable.

 

[AC Tynker]

A/C Tinker

If you want this question answered by someone YOU would have to ask an AMFA member or X AMFA member. Since we here at AA are NOT,<<<<<< YET>>>>>

Go Over to the United section and SWA section of this Forum and ask the question you will get your answer there. Then you can come back here and tell us all what you got as the answer. Simple, not to much to ask, Your just asking the wrong people. Your expecting one of us here to say something so that you can continue to put down what we are try to do here. Bring AMFA in and oust the TWU..

Look if you want to be here and support the TWU fine, You did say that you support the union in place so talk possitive about the TWU. Some thing you know about, let the rest of us bash the IBT and support AMFA.


Your NOT a TWU officer nor do you want to be. "YOU" like the TWU and fully support what they do and will continue to do.

You dont like the attitudes of some AMFA supporters, yet your doing the same thing bashing them and putting down what they believe. Get with Hewitt, Don V. Bobby G.
Gary Drumman and the rest of the TWU and push them, to all that will listen.

If I wanted to know what they thought I could ask right here and get the same result from forum members from the other carriers and Unions. I am asking everyone that is currently TWU at AA that doesn't understand why the International would go after an Elected Officer on the TWU's dime for promoting another Union. I have tried to explain to you that I am not referencing the membership that wants another Union but, evidently you are missing that part.

 

[Overspeed]

I dont know of any union that has a weighted vote.
Normally each committee member has an equal vote and they decide what goes back to the members.Then the members decide, representatives from larger stations then have the ability to either try and sell or reject the deal based on their size and how the deal will affect them. Their size advantage gets one bite at the apple, not two like in our structure. What we have is 514 gets to decide what we vote on, by virtue of the Roll Call vote and then they have the larger membership.

You seem to forget that the line is to see reductions as well.

Under the plan the International put together 514 would have a little over 5000 T-1 and T-II members, they would get there by taking members from Local 567 and Local 565. 591 would have less than 4000 members and zero Title II members. Even If DWH were to remain in 565 and AFW were to remain stand alone and Title II remained as it is today 514 would still be bigger than 591.

AFW and DWH would add around 1000 to 514. DWH is on the same airport as 591 and 514 would be hundreds of miles away. AFW is only 30 miles from DFW yet they too would be in 514. That makes no sense, sure management may be different, but its the same contract.

When have I ever advocated outsourcing? I've been against rolling over every time the company threatens to do so, like you advocate. I thought the reason we were in a union was so we could act as one and fight to make things better for all of us, not have some of us be forced to accept the worst conditions in the industry because others of us are afraid to act like union men and women. I thought we have a union so as not let the company threaten one part so we all surrender and give away pay and benefits and hope that the company doesnt come back and do it again. That strategy has already failed, in 2003 when they threatened to close the base we gave up 25%, set a new low for the industry that helped push USAIRWAYS back for a second BK and everyone else in as well. Then we did it again in 2012, what do you think is going to happen in 2018 if we continue to let 514 rule with their Roll call vote and 5000 members? The same thing that happened in 2003 and 2012. Even prior to BK we had already outsourced A&P jobs to OSMs and FSCs, had been doing it for years, it took BK for AA's competitors to get such concessions. Our concessions were put in through attrition, as A&amp;Ps left, their job functions were taken over by non-A&Ps, whether it was SRPs in the Shops in OH or FSCs doing R&D and Deicing on the line, A&amp;Ps lost work. That option was not available to AA's competitors, we gave some of our concessions during the greatest economic expansion of our lifetime, post 9-11 the economy was in a recession. The only way AA's competitors could come close to matching what AA was able to get, thanks to people like you, without even going BK, was to outsource. So they did. In the meantime we gave up 25% supposedly to save jobs, ten years later we are once again giving in to supposedly save jobs, this time its another 17% on top of the 25%. Yet you come here and admit that jobs will be lost. You claim that if we had not agreed that more jobs would be lost. My question is do you believe their is a surplus of OH capacity for MD-80s out there? I dont, in fact "Capacity is tight". Do you think TIMCO or AAR is going to gear up to do MD-80s when they cant even handle they have now? Look at how they screwed up the 757 they OH'd and the seat pitch. How much did AA save there?

So what did we do? We claim we kept the MD-80 work in house, because nobody wants it anyway. As that work goes away we have no guarantee that we will get new work. Look at what our scope clause says.

In the term sheet they wanted to outsource 40% of the work, based upon man hours. Then they went to 35% of the work based upon man hours, so yes they reduced the amount of man hours from 40% to 35%, from the term sheet to LBOI but in LBOII they changed it to 35% of maintenance spend -including materials. In other words they increased the amount of man hours (ie JOBS) they can outsource and depending on the cost of variables, they can now outsource even more than 40% of the manhours that the term sheet they were threatening to impose allowed. The more they pay for materials the more man hours they can outsource. The less they pay for labor when they outsource, the more manhours they can outsource. As they reduce headcount, the more OT you work, the more work they can outsource as well. Great Move OS, you didnt save the bases, you sold them out, and agreed to bottom of the industry compensation on top of that!!!

Local 514 went and told their members to accept this deal, now do you see why I dont want 514 to sit there with their Roll Call vote forcing more concessions on us?
Come the next round of negotiations 514 will be even more vulnerable, with language in place that allows the company to outsource pretty much at will, at least as much as there is capacity out there to do the work, the company will use the same threat they used in 2003 and 2008-12 and get 514 to agree to even more concessions.

If 514 is willing to advocate super low wages for 514 and get their members to buy it then fine, thats up to them, what I have a problem with is 514 leaders that insist that whatever they are willing to agree to sell to their members (and hope they can slide into an International spot afterwards)that everyone else has to agree to it too. They use their Roll Call vote to get the concessionary ballott out there then with a fear campaign get their large membership to get it passed.

When the company proposed a modest adjustment for the line, 514 sudedenly switched and said that if the line got anything the bases did not get then the deal was DOA as far as Tulsa was concerned. Hewitt claimed that he voted against the 2010 deal, but he advocated for the 2012 concessions, what was the dealmaker? Was it the fact that there was no $2/hr line premium on 2012? Was he willing to give up retiree medical, the Pension and all the other concessions just to make sure that line maintenance did not get that extra $2/hr over the base? He was willing to kill the deal if the line got an extra 50 cents, Who knows, but we all are stuck with the worst deal in the industry because people like you, who claim to be Union minded,in fact, support the Walmart anti-labor approach to wages and claim that lower wages and less benefits are good because it allows employers to hire more people.


Disdain for OH? No, I respect what they do, and the 26% of 514 and members from AFW have proven that they repect their profession and are willing to fight for it. I have disdain for the structure that allows one Local to have so much power that they can ruin the profession. I have disdain for people like you who have an obvious disdain for the work we do with your "brown trout" comment, as if saying that working as a mechanic is some sort of punishment, it shouldnt be, but people like you certainly are making it become that way.

Read the AMFA and IBT constitution and bylaws. The number of voting members on the contract committee is weighted based on their membership at AMFA and the IBT has their business agents running the negotiations. Smoke and mirrors Bob. All unions have a system to break a tie and just like them, we do at the TWU as well. And again, you always complain about TUL/514 having too much power and now you want a system that gives one person all the power. The restructure provides representation on a daily basis for members by locals that have the most experience with the management in a given area. Local 513 will now represent Title II because they work for DAS management. Local 514 will represent Title II at DWH because they report to M&E management. In negotiations Title II in 513 will have a rep there but Local 514 and 591 will be representing Title II as well and ensuring that Local 513 cannot stop anything that is in the best interests of the Title II membership. Negotiations is still at least four years off at best. How do you know that issue won't be addressed before then?

Right the Line will lose about 200 and the Base will lose 2,000. 2,000 is more than 200.

Bob don't you state often that new fleet types will drive down base headcount? What do you think 514 will look like in 2016? That's right. About even.

When you say we should have just let AA abrogate the contract and get rid of the jobs now because it will happen anyway, that's a thinly veiled way of saying you are okay with outsourcing overhaul.

In BK no union has come out of it with an agreement that keep more jobs in-house than the TWU scope clause. Not the IBT, not AMFA, and not the IAM. None of them. You keep distorting the facts of the scope clause. 65% of direct labor and materials (do you understand what is in materials?) is more than any other airline. That locks in that we WILL be getting 65% of the direct labor and material spend in-house and 15% of line. The abrogated agreement had NO cap on line. BCs were going to be outsourced but now they are not. IBT has no cap on outsourcing at UA and CO and AMFA only locks in four lines of overhaul for 622 aircraft. WOW! No engines, no components, and the majority of airframe outsources.

26% is not the majority in TUL and that is what happens in democracy and voting Bob. It is obvious from your statements that you dislike TUL influence has over our union and line specifically. You state that if TUL wants to take low wages then let them. So as long as Bob's world survives and is the most highly paid, screw everyone else. Nice Bob, that's not a union. A union represents all the members and the majority votes to ratify which is exactly what happened with the July 2012 TA.

 

[Overspeed]

Don,

Tell me why it is wrong for the members to hold the union responsible when the union fails the members?

But holding unelected, unaccountable international officers accountable is only possible by removing the whole union. The twu has failed the membership and also failed those who were elected into office by the members. So everyone has a right to remove the twu.

You talk about AMFA officers openly promoting another union? It seems as if AMFA is listening to the membership, unlike the twu, and hence no need to seek an industrial, catch all, undemocratic, unaccountable union like the twu.

Kind of hard to vote out the leadership that failed you when you aren't a member any more. Ask the 15,000 plus AMTs that were AMFA members that don't work at AS, UA, and NW because AMFA fought so well for their jobs. And they must have left the industry because the HC numbers at the airlines didn't go up. Your buddy Bob talks about people can just leave the industry and get great jobs making more money. The BLS says that's completely wrong Ken.

So like I said, when your union fails you define fail. Yes we have taken some hits and no one at the Int'l has said the July 2012 TA is great but it is way better than the alternative. How do I know that the alternative was huge job loss to outsourcing at AA if our CBA was abrogated? Well I don't know for 100% sure that would have happened but 15,000 out of work AMFA AMT members gives me a damn good idea that abrogation was coming and more overhaul outsourced.

And you Ken, well you can keep playing with you plastic mouse toys and your AMTA website in between all those heavy coffee maker changes out there in SAN.

 

[Ken MacTiernan]

Kind of hard to vote out the leadership that failed you when you aren't a member any more. Ask the 15,000 plus AMTs that were AMFA members that don't work at AS, UA, and NW because AMFA fought so well for their jobs. And they must have left the industry because the HC numbers at the airlines didn't go up. Your buddy Bob talks about people can just leave the industry and get great jobs making more money. The BLS says that's completely wrong Ken.

So like I said, when your union fails you define fail. Yes we have taken some hits and no one at the Int'l has said the July 2012 TA is great but it is way better than the alternative. How do I know that the alternative was huge job loss to outsourcing at AA if our CBA was abrogated? Well I don't know for 100% sure that would have happened but 15,000 out of work AMFA AMT members gives me a damn good idea that abrogation was coming and more overhaul outsourced.

And you Ken, well you can keep playing with you plastic mouse toys and your AMTA website in between all those heavy coffee maker changes out there in SAN.

Don,

Getting personal from behind your alias again? If body weight equaled intelligence than I'd wager you are the smartest guy in the international but yet you are incapable of realizing the twu structure is broken, the twu is not democratic and the membership will remove the twu. Then it will be you who will get to replace coffee makers... If you can fit into the galley that is.

 

[Realityck]

#310

Ken MacTiernan
Posted Today, 04:01 PM

• 
  

• 
  

[background=rgb(255, 255, 255)][indent=4.375]
[background=rgb(242, 242, 242)]
Overspeed, on 14 October 2012 - 03:44 PM, said:[/background][background=rgb(252, 252, 252)]


Kind of hard to vote out the leadership that failed you when you aren't a member any more. Ask the 15,000 plus AMTs that were AMFA members that don't work at AS, UA, and NW because AMFA fought so well for their jobs. And they must have left the industry because the HC numbers at the airlines didn't go up. Your buddy Bob talks about people can just leave the industry and get great jobs making more money. The BLS says that's completely wrong Ken.

So like I said, when your union fails you define fail. Yes we have taken some hits and no one at the Int'l has said the July 2012 TA is great but it is way better than the alternative. How do I know that the alternative was huge job loss to outsourcing at AA if our CBA was abrogated? Well I don't know for 100% sure that would have happened but 15,000 out of work AMFA AMT members gives me a damn good idea that abrogation was coming and more overhaul outsourced.

And you Ken, well you can keep playing with you plastic mouse toys and your AMTA website in between all those heavy coffee maker changes out there in SAN.[/background]

Don,

Getting personal from behind your alias again? If body weight equaled intelligence than I'd wager you are the smartest guy in the international but yet you are incapable of realizing the twu structure is broken, the twu is not democratic and the membership will remove the twu. Then it will be you who will get to replace coffee makers... If you can fit into the galley that is.


I've heard all the AMFA rhetoric starting with Delle personally, and watched AMFA's trial & error methodology over my 40 years as an AA AMT. From Delle's "management recognizes our professionalism and will reward us accordingly", to their openly dumping Ovh'l work to underwrite Line AMT wages, they don't fool anyone. Its unfortunate that we have some Local TWU Leaders that mirror their philosophy but the members will have to deal with them.

As for you Ken, you need to find another career field. You just don't get it and your broken record routine is getting pretty stale.[/background][/indent]

 

[AC Tynker]

Don,

Getting personal from behind your alias again? If body weight equaled intelligence than I'd wager you are the smartest guy in the international but yet you are incapable of realizing the twu structure is broken, the twu is not democratic and the membership will remove the twu. Then it will be you who will get to replace coffee makers... If you can fit into the galley that is.

Cindy,
Even if he were who you insinuate which I doubt, you pretty much cheapened the friendly exchange with the reference to physique. I guess what I am trying to say is it would be like him saying you looked like a retarded Ken doll, you know plastic and fake. I don't recall him taking there though.

 

[lineguy43]

#310

Ken MacTiernan
Posted Today, 04:01 PM

• 
  

• 
  

[background=rgb(255,255,255)]375]

[background=rgb(242,242,242)]Overspeed, on 14 October 2012 - 03:44 PM, said:[/background]


[background=rgb(252,252,252)]Kind of hard to vote out the leadership that failed you when you aren't a member any more. Ask the 15,000 plus AMTs that were AMFA members that don't work at AS, UA, and NW because AMFA fought so well for their jobs. And they must have left the industry because the HC numbers at the airlines didn't go up. Your buddy Bob talks about people can just leave the industry and get great jobs making more money. The BLS says that's completely wrong Ken.

So like I said, when your union fails you define fail. Yes we have taken some hits and no one at the Int'l has said the July 2012 TA is great but it is way better than the alternative. How do I know that the alternative was huge job loss to outsourcing at AA if our CBA was abrogated? Well I don't know for 100% sure that would have happened but 15,000 out of work AMFA AMT members gives me a damn good idea that abrogation was coming and more overhaul outsourced.

And you Ken, well you can keep playing with you plastic mouse toys and your AMTA website in between all those heavy coffee maker changes out there in SAN.[/background]

Don,

Getting personal from behind your alias again? If body weight equaled intelligence than I'd wager you are the smartest guy in the international but yet you are incapable of realizing the twu structure is broken, the twu is not democratic and the membership will remove the twu. Then it will be you who will get to replace coffee makers... If you can fit into the galley that is.


I've heard all the AMFA rhetoric starting with Delle personally, and watched AMFA's trial & error methodology over my 40 years as an AA AMT. From Delle's "management recognizes our professionalism and will reward us accordingly", to their openly dumping Ovh'l work to underwrite Line AMT wages, they don't fool anyone. Its unfortunate that we have some Local TWU Leaders that mirror their philosophy but the members will have to deal with them.

As for you Ken, you need to find another career field. You just don't get it and your broken record routine is getting pretty stale.[/background]​

For someone who has 40 yrs as an AA mechanic it sounds like you are the one that doesn't "get it"..But no matter if you want to keep going on the way you have been for years and years of sucking hind teat just keep the status quo and keep embracing your Twu. Just speaks volumes to me. Seems the best option for AMT's really is to be non-union. Too many people like you satisfied with being a bottom feeder and afraid to take any kind of chance to better yourself. Thanks for doing your part to keep the bar so low that no one can limbo under it.

 

[Realityck]

For someone who has 40 yrs as an AA mechanic it sounds like you are the one that doesn't "get it"..But no matter if you want to keep going on the way you have been for years and years of sucking hind teat just keep the status quo and keep embracing your Twu. Just speaks volumes to me. Seems the best option for AMT's really is to be non-union. Too many people like you satisfied with being a bottom feeder and afraid to take any kind of chance to better yourself. Thanks for doing your part to keep the bar so low that no one can limbo under it.

I'm far from a bottom feeder friend, just don't let the door hit you in the a-- on the way out. You and mighty mouse make a real pair - enjoy your honeymoon.

 

[Ken MacTiernan]

Cindy,
Even if he were who you insinuate which I doubt, you pretty much cheapened the friendly exchange with the reference to physique. I guess what I am trying to say is it would be like him saying you looked like a retarded Ken doll, you know plastic and fake. I don't recall him taking there though.

Friendly exchange? I'm accused of being plastic with big ears? All from someone hiding behind an alias?

Someone attempts to insinuate that Line Maintenance is relegated to nothing more than coffee maker replacement? All from behind an alias?

I will reply in kind when I feel like it. These threads are about the failed structure of the twu and the only defense for people who support the twu's failed structure is to attack me for my beliefs in having a craft and democratic union all from behind an alias.

twu will be removed from representing AMTs at AA regardless of the teamster's assistance to the twu.

You and the other twu tools can't defend the twu's undemocratic structure. All that can be done is bring people up on Bad Standing and just like the cowards using an alias on this board the person who demands these individuals are brought up on charges of Bad Standing does not have the integrity to hold the hearings himself.

Go AMFA!