Twu - Local 514 Lies Again!
- Thread starter RV4
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No, it really should have read:Checking it Out said:
We have no idea what we're talking about so we'll just make up some crap as we go along. We know you're all too stupid and lazy to research the truth for yourselves.
And get rid of that stupid Asia emblem you made up. We blew the lid off that twu lie. SASCO has been doing NWA maint. for EIGHT YEARS! It all went there under the IAM. Or should I say the Industrial Asian Mechanics union?
(another great quote from RUM@AA)RUM@AA said:No, it really should have read:Checking it Out said:
We have no idea what we're talking about so we'll just make up some crap as we go along. We know you're all too stupid and lazy to research the truth for yourselves.
And get rid of that stupid Asia emblem you made up. We blew the lid off that twu lie. SASCO has been doing NWA maint. for EIGHT YEARS! It all went there under the IAM. Or should I say the Industrial Asian Mechanics union?
No, it really should have read:
We have no idea what we're talking about so we'll just make up some crap as we go along. We know you're all too stupid and lazy to research the truth for yourselves.
And get rid of that stupid Asia emblem you made up. We blew the lid off that twu lie. SASCO has been doing NWA maint. for EIGHT YEARS! It all went there under the IAM. Or should I say the Industrial Asian Mechanics union?
. . .another AMFA BOY resorting to name calling again. Is this the only tactic you have?? You are doing wonders for your cause, not to mention you appear to be, oh, say, 7 years old!!
Speaking of doing research, I think you might want to do a little of your own regarding outsourcing. Why don't you try it and then get back to me. . .
Steve Connell
Senior
- Aug 16, 2003
- 322
- 0
I started @ TWA May 22..1978...due to furlough time of 2376 days I believe AA adjusted my seniority to 11 of 84....then TWU members adjusted again to Apr 10 2001...ya see...I understand seniority very well , spent my time on the street instead of whining about pinning someone to the bottom...you all are proven self serving non unionists...not meant as name calling, just fact.
Ref: One thing I have learned in my quest to remove the TWU from it's entrenched representational position, is that people from different parts of the country view unionism in different ways. Maybe the mechanics at MCI (TWA) can acheive what we that have lived under the thumb of the TWU have not.
Exactly what was it that the International did to tie your hands in your own matters, and if it was so blatant why was it not resolved in court? Is your local strong? These are things I admit I know nothing about, but I do know our floor knows unionism when called upon and we will deal with the TWU International if and when needed. No offense meant towards AMFA but I could see no difference here locally if AMFA would gain bargaining agent for us....you would have the same business, same management stretching contract language, and the same stewards fighting for the floor. Also I believe we @ MCI opened the International's eyes when we ousted our own president for non-conformity.
Also our opinions of AMFA are possibly shaded due to the fact you only see drives occur during times of inner turmoil and despair, at least at MCI anyhow. I have seen AMFA here during my contract negotiations attempting to split my floor when the floor needed to be at full strength to give power to our negotiators. That sir is not unionism...AMFA did not respect my contract with the IAM by bringing recruitment onto our base here...showing NO respect for other unions does not sit well with me either..so there lies the bias.
However in the same breath I wish you well in your venture and I believe had you all showed this kind of support to your own locals TWU would have worked for you...imagine all those wearing AMFA shirts in TUL to show up at a union meeting together supporting the TWU local there...now THAT would get the company's attention, not to mention the International...just a thought....SC
Ref: One thing I have learned in my quest to remove the TWU from it's entrenched representational position, is that people from different parts of the country view unionism in different ways. Maybe the mechanics at MCI (TWA) can acheive what we that have lived under the thumb of the TWU have not.
Exactly what was it that the International did to tie your hands in your own matters, and if it was so blatant why was it not resolved in court? Is your local strong? These are things I admit I know nothing about, but I do know our floor knows unionism when called upon and we will deal with the TWU International if and when needed. No offense meant towards AMFA but I could see no difference here locally if AMFA would gain bargaining agent for us....you would have the same business, same management stretching contract language, and the same stewards fighting for the floor. Also I believe we @ MCI opened the International's eyes when we ousted our own president for non-conformity.
Also our opinions of AMFA are possibly shaded due to the fact you only see drives occur during times of inner turmoil and despair, at least at MCI anyhow. I have seen AMFA here during my contract negotiations attempting to split my floor when the floor needed to be at full strength to give power to our negotiators. That sir is not unionism...AMFA did not respect my contract with the IAM by bringing recruitment onto our base here...showing NO respect for other unions does not sit well with me either..so there lies the bias.
However in the same breath I wish you well in your venture and I believe had you all showed this kind of support to your own locals TWU would have worked for you...imagine all those wearing AMFA shirts in TUL to show up at a union meeting together supporting the TWU local there...now THAT would get the company's attention, not to mention the International...just a thought....SC
- Aug 20, 2002
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- 1,555
Exactly what was it that the International did to tie your hands in your own matters, and if it was so blatant why was it not resolved in court?Steve Connell said:
The TWU International has controlled the constitutional convention for many years. Until recently, as I am so informed, the Air Transport Division of the TWU International AFL-CIO, has never had the strength to run a challenge to acheive the changes that the mechanic and related desire. The removal of the right to remove International officers from the Constitution, Art: 22 I believe. Why was it not resolved in court? because it was still with in the constitution. You appear to understand how a change to the constitution would work?
Is your local strong?
NO!, it is divided. Just as the Line is divided from the base maintenance.
These are things I admit I know nothing about, but I do know our floor knows unionism when called upon and we will deal with the TWU International if and when needed.
Good Luck, because it will take someone that knows unionism, we will see. That also means that you are going to sponsor a coalition for change from your local at the next convention, right?
No offense meant towards AMFA but I could see no difference here locally if AMFA would gain bargaining agent for us....you would have the same business, same management stretching contract language, and the same stewards fighting for the floor. Also I believe we @ MCI opened the International's eyes when we ousted our own president for non-conformity.
The only thing I disagree with is the concept of TWU fighting the company....
Also our opinions of AMFA are possibly shaded due to the fact you only see drives occur during times of inner turmoil and despair, at least at MCI anyhow.
Hmmm, I have been attempting to replace the TWU since 1989. The urge to replace the TWU was evident when AA mechanics were the #1 compensated mechanics in the industry.
I have seen AMFA here during my contract negotiations attempting to split my floor when the floor needed to be at full strength to give power to our negotiators. That sir is not unionism...AMFA did not respect my contract with the IAM by bringing recruitment onto our base here...showing NO respect for other unions does not sit well with me either..so there lies the bias.
You will some day see it would not matter if you had a 100% floor, negotiations under the TWU do not happen from the Locals and this is a Fleet Service Union. These are the facts.
However in the same breath I wish you well in your venture and I believe had you all showed this kind of support to your own locals TWU would have worked for you...imagine all those wearing AMFA shirts in TUL to show up at a union meeting together supporting the TWU local there...now THAT would get the company's attention, not to mention the International...just a thought.
AMFA shirt wearers are banned from the Local by the by-laws. All the company sees is the division the TWU creates between the Line and it's maintenance bases, excluding AFW.
Steve Connell
Senior
- Aug 16, 2003
- 322
- 0
Buck...I'm getting a mental picture here of a bunch of AMFA t-shirts entering a TWU hall..not what I had meant..that would be disrespectful to any man's union. Use of your energy wisely promotes change. Simply put...there is power in numbers when used with direction, but not when pitted against each other.SC
Jim Martin
Member
- Aug 15, 2003
- 31
- 0
Steve,
We don't want anyone pitted against each other. We all need to come together under a new union that engages in democracy and holds there international reps accountable. I'm sure once AMFA is in at AA you will be welcomed with open arms.
There are many good officers and shop stewards in the TWU. In order to promote change the higher ups (international) need to be accountable to the members first not Sonny Hall.
We don't want anyone pitted against each other. We all need to come together under a new union that engages in democracy and holds there international reps accountable. I'm sure once AMFA is in at AA you will be welcomed with open arms.
There are many good officers and shop stewards in the TWU. In order to promote change the higher ups (international) need to be accountable to the members first not Sonny Hall.
Jim Martin,
I’m glad you mentioned that your E-board and chairmen voted to lay-off. However, had the TWU taken the 562 course of action, the result likely would’ve been bankruptcy. Local 562 promoted, through out the system a “NO†vote on the concession offer from the company, we all know that. When your guys didn’t agree with the signing of the agreement, you found it in your infinite wisdom to prove the TWU wrong by filing a lawsuit. YOUR AMFA BOYS LOST, the judge said “NO ONE†would have been better of, not the employees, the flying public or the company. What did the TWU do for you? For starters, how about not agreeing to send your job (or any part of it) to third party vendors. How about keeping your retirement pension intact. How about continuing your retirement pre-funding. How about not violating senior mechanics rights to bump and bid. And frankly, the lines gave up less than anyone else. AMFA claims they could’ve done better, ask the 10,000 or so M&R that are on lay off at NWA and United. You don’t see all those jobs as a concession? Even the AMFA boys agree that those jobs are lost for good. So when your boys say “save the pay, take the lay off†and “it’ll be hear for you when they recall youâ€, YOUR LYING, THOSE JOBS AREN’T COMING BACK! That being said, the AFL-CIO and member Unions are coming to help you. Our political activists and lobbyists have been able to draft language for amendments about foreign repair and get them through both the house and senate, which will help provide restrictions and a fairer playing field for domestic workforces. Where is AMFA? What good have they done? Where’s the proof? Have they testified on behalf of working men and women before congress? The TWU has, along with the TTD and AFL-CIO. What has the TWU done for you? You bumped to the line because you didn’t have enough seniority to stay, the TWU likely saved your job!
I’m glad you mentioned that your E-board and chairmen voted to lay-off. However, had the TWU taken the 562 course of action, the result likely would’ve been bankruptcy. Local 562 promoted, through out the system a “NO†vote on the concession offer from the company, we all know that. When your guys didn’t agree with the signing of the agreement, you found it in your infinite wisdom to prove the TWU wrong by filing a lawsuit. YOUR AMFA BOYS LOST, the judge said “NO ONE†would have been better of, not the employees, the flying public or the company. What did the TWU do for you? For starters, how about not agreeing to send your job (or any part of it) to third party vendors. How about keeping your retirement pension intact. How about continuing your retirement pre-funding. How about not violating senior mechanics rights to bump and bid. And frankly, the lines gave up less than anyone else. AMFA claims they could’ve done better, ask the 10,000 or so M&R that are on lay off at NWA and United. You don’t see all those jobs as a concession? Even the AMFA boys agree that those jobs are lost for good. So when your boys say “save the pay, take the lay off†and “it’ll be hear for you when they recall youâ€, YOUR LYING, THOSE JOBS AREN’T COMING BACK! That being said, the AFL-CIO and member Unions are coming to help you. Our political activists and lobbyists have been able to draft language for amendments about foreign repair and get them through both the house and senate, which will help provide restrictions and a fairer playing field for domestic workforces. Where is AMFA? What good have they done? Where’s the proof? Have they testified on behalf of working men and women before congress? The TWU has, along with the TTD and AFL-CIO. What has the TWU done for you? You bumped to the line because you didn’t have enough seniority to stay, the TWU likely saved your job!
Jim Martin
Member
- Aug 15, 2003
- 31
- 0
Jake,
I'm not really an AMFA BOY. I just believe the TWU international needs to grow some backbone. They just gave up what little we gained over the last 40 years. How soon do you believe we will get all that back? It probably won't matter which union we are with, it will take till I retire in 20 years.
You are right about one thing I would have been laid off and maybe never recalled. I would survive though.
As far as what the TWU did for me, I did get RIFed to DFW. But make know mistake about it, many didn't get to stay there due to Local 514 screwing up and sending more senior people out of DFW in order to bring in TUL people. It wasn't the members fault in TUL, it was John McDonalds.
I've never said the jobs will be back.
And for the record I was already on the line in PHL.
You also must be under the school of thought that AMFA at NWA would be the same as AMFA at AA. I'm NOT.
I'm not really an AMFA BOY. I just believe the TWU international needs to grow some backbone. They just gave up what little we gained over the last 40 years. How soon do you believe we will get all that back? It probably won't matter which union we are with, it will take till I retire in 20 years.
You are right about one thing I would have been laid off and maybe never recalled. I would survive though.
As far as what the TWU did for me, I did get RIFed to DFW. But make know mistake about it, many didn't get to stay there due to Local 514 screwing up and sending more senior people out of DFW in order to bring in TUL people. It wasn't the members fault in TUL, it was John McDonalds.
I've never said the jobs will be back.
And for the record I was already on the line in PHL.
You also must be under the school of thought that AMFA at NWA would be the same as AMFA at AA. I'm NOT.
Checking it Out
Veteran
- Apr 3, 2003
- 1,702
- 0
Does anyone remember this letter?
April 10, 2003
TO: All AA Members:
RE: United Airlines Term Sheet of April 8, 2003
Dear Sisters and Brothers:
We have received numerous calls and E-mails regarding the latest UA term sheet dated April 8, 2003 reached in Bankruptcy, as compared to the AA March 31, 2003 tentative agreement. The chart attached depicts the UA Term sheet overlaid on the AA T/A. In summation: If our Negotiating Committee agreed to the outsourcing vs. compensation, we would be at a 10% pay reduction and holidays, vacation, sick leave would be intact. The direct result of the UA agreement would eliminate 6,388 jobs. Our Negotiating Committee rejected the additional outsourcing of work.
Fraternally,
James C. Little
Director Air Transport Division
Intl. Administrative Vice President
Just for your Information thanks to the amfa Organizers at UA this is what they ended up with massive Layoffs.
The majority of the members at AA understood this and did not listen to the AMFA wantabes. I pick the Membership! they were the smart ones!
April 10, 2003
TO: All AA Members:
RE: United Airlines Term Sheet of April 8, 2003
Dear Sisters and Brothers:
We have received numerous calls and E-mails regarding the latest UA term sheet dated April 8, 2003 reached in Bankruptcy, as compared to the AA March 31, 2003 tentative agreement. The chart attached depicts the UA Term sheet overlaid on the AA T/A. In summation: If our Negotiating Committee agreed to the outsourcing vs. compensation, we would be at a 10% pay reduction and holidays, vacation, sick leave would be intact. The direct result of the UA agreement would eliminate 6,388 jobs. Our Negotiating Committee rejected the additional outsourcing of work.
Fraternally,
James C. Little
Director Air Transport Division
Intl. Administrative Vice President
Just for your Information thanks to the amfa Organizers at UA this is what they ended up with massive Layoffs.
The majority of the members at AA understood this and did not listen to the AMFA wantabes. I pick the Membership! they were the smart ones!
Jim Martin,
No offense intended with the “AMFA boy†moniker. I call the TWU supporters “boy†too. To get right to the point, maybe you and your AMFA boys need to grow some backbone, what do you mean by “they gave up?†The membership made the call to live with the concessionary contract. Did the International claim that it was better than bankruptcy? Yes they did! This was not, as you know a “normal†negotiation process. If it would have been and we had the same result, I could see your disappointment if the negotiating committee had brought back an offer such as this. As it was, the committee had a choice to make, let the membership decide their fate or send the company into bankruptcy. We (the TWU) chose to promote not going to bankruptcy. The reason we did? We saw what happens to airlines that take that route. I don’t know who’s told you what but there are about 6000 mechanics on layoff right now from United airlines and more to come. The AMFA influence there caused the initial offer from the company to be rejected and propelled them into 1113© proceedings. The initial offer was to keep their scope, a 7% pay reduction and 4 holidays. What they ended up with was much worse, they (United) took their pay back to ’02 rates, cancelled upcoming raises and then took 13% from everything. As if that wasn’t bad enough, they received language from the proceeding that farmed out all of their heavy maintenance and 20% of all other maintenance on an annual basis. I can appreciate your “I’d survive†comment but frankly, there are thousands of others that deserved to make the same choice. These jobs at United and NWA are gone. You say, Jim Little “promised†a re-vote. His intent with the initial information that he had, lead him to move in that direction. Did he jump the gun? Maybe, but the company had just given us the “retention bonus†crap and we were making a huge deal out of it, and justifiably so. Unfortunately, had we done that , 1) the company would have filed bankruptcy and 2) the company would have won an injunction to put us back to work and then asked us for more money, causing more damage. The courts simply were not going to allow American to file after the membership had ratified the agreement the first time. The TWU legal counsel told us that prior to the attempt for injunctions was filed by the flight attendants and filed by local 562. Then low-and-behold, the TWU was right! Both judges (one in the same district that AA would have used to file) denied the injunctions on the basis that AA likely would have filed. Why wouldn’t you look at NWA as a model for AMFA operations? If not NWA, then any of the others that they represent, no matter which one you choose, they are at or near the top of the industry in either farming out work or lay offs. Lastly, if John McDonald mis-applied the contract during the bumps, there is a mechanism in place to deal with that. If there is a basis for your arguement, it's your fault if you don't pursue it. If there is no basis or proof, then stop slandering.
No offense intended with the “AMFA boy†moniker. I call the TWU supporters “boy†too. To get right to the point, maybe you and your AMFA boys need to grow some backbone, what do you mean by “they gave up?†The membership made the call to live with the concessionary contract. Did the International claim that it was better than bankruptcy? Yes they did! This was not, as you know a “normal†negotiation process. If it would have been and we had the same result, I could see your disappointment if the negotiating committee had brought back an offer such as this. As it was, the committee had a choice to make, let the membership decide their fate or send the company into bankruptcy. We (the TWU) chose to promote not going to bankruptcy. The reason we did? We saw what happens to airlines that take that route. I don’t know who’s told you what but there are about 6000 mechanics on layoff right now from United airlines and more to come. The AMFA influence there caused the initial offer from the company to be rejected and propelled them into 1113© proceedings. The initial offer was to keep their scope, a 7% pay reduction and 4 holidays. What they ended up with was much worse, they (United) took their pay back to ’02 rates, cancelled upcoming raises and then took 13% from everything. As if that wasn’t bad enough, they received language from the proceeding that farmed out all of their heavy maintenance and 20% of all other maintenance on an annual basis. I can appreciate your “I’d survive†comment but frankly, there are thousands of others that deserved to make the same choice. These jobs at United and NWA are gone. You say, Jim Little “promised†a re-vote. His intent with the initial information that he had, lead him to move in that direction. Did he jump the gun? Maybe, but the company had just given us the “retention bonus†crap and we were making a huge deal out of it, and justifiably so. Unfortunately, had we done that , 1) the company would have filed bankruptcy and 2) the company would have won an injunction to put us back to work and then asked us for more money, causing more damage. The courts simply were not going to allow American to file after the membership had ratified the agreement the first time. The TWU legal counsel told us that prior to the attempt for injunctions was filed by the flight attendants and filed by local 562. Then low-and-behold, the TWU was right! Both judges (one in the same district that AA would have used to file) denied the injunctions on the basis that AA likely would have filed. Why wouldn’t you look at NWA as a model for AMFA operations? If not NWA, then any of the others that they represent, no matter which one you choose, they are at or near the top of the industry in either farming out work or lay offs. Lastly, if John McDonald mis-applied the contract during the bumps, there is a mechanism in place to deal with that. If there is a basis for your arguement, it's your fault if you don't pursue it. If there is no basis or proof, then stop slandering.
Jim Martin
Member
- Aug 15, 2003
- 31
- 0
Jake,
I'm not slandering anyone. I wrote John about his letter that was posted on the 514 website. In his letter he said that "in the end the most junior person would be affected". I explained that the most junior person should be affected first. I got know reply because he knew what he was doing when he did it. Even the great Jim Little said it was done wrong but John knew if he got the ball rolling it would be to hard to stop it. Turns out he was right. And as far as the rest of the your post goes, how much is enough? How cheap will you work? If AA can cry and you fold everytime they cry Bankruptcy they will love to have you and the TWU there for ever. No Doubt.
I'm not slandering anyone. I wrote John about his letter that was posted on the 514 website. In his letter he said that "in the end the most junior person would be affected". I explained that the most junior person should be affected first. I got know reply because he knew what he was doing when he did it. Even the great Jim Little said it was done wrong but John knew if he got the ball rolling it would be to hard to stop it. Turns out he was right. And as far as the rest of the your post goes, how much is enough? How cheap will you work? If AA can cry and you fold everytime they cry Bankruptcy they will love to have you and the TWU there for ever. No Doubt.
- Aug 20, 2002
- 7,319
- 1,555
Buck...I'm getting a mental picture here of a bunch of AMFA t-shirts entering a TWU hall..not what I had meant..that would be disrespectful to any man's union. Use of your energy wisely promotes change. Simply put...there is power in numbers when used with direction, but not when pitted against each other.SC
Not exactly, it use to be a bunch of mechanics that attended the meetings and found that their concerns were not that of the TWU or it's International. Over a long period of time this has generated into meetings where participation is at an all time low. Back in 1989 a few AMFA supporters entered the hall and there was a major disageement. Since then there has not been a "bunch of AMFA t-shirts" or a bunch of anything in the union hall in TUL. Local 514 is ran by a minority that has the ear of the majority, yet this majority does not attend meetings and have not for years. I am glad you are starting to see that the AMFA supporters are attemping to use "power in numbers" and the direction is change. As for being pitted against each other, it is the TWU which has divided the Line from TUL. I am not quite sure where MCI is or where they want to be. I hope that MCI will see that the mechanic and related across the AA system, while in minority in numbers, but the majority of stations has opted for this change in representation, as have most of the mechanics at other airlines.
Not exactly, it use to be a bunch of mechanics that attended the meetings and found that their concerns were not that of the TWU or it's International. Over a long period of time this has generated into meetings where participation is at an all time low. Back in 1989 a few AMFA supporters entered the hall and there was a major disageement. Since then there has not been a "bunch of AMFA t-shirts" or a bunch of anything in the union hall in TUL. Local 514 is ran by a minority that has the ear of the majority, yet this majority does not attend meetings and have not for years. I am glad you are starting to see that the AMFA supporters are attemping to use "power in numbers" and the direction is change. As for being pitted against each other, it is the TWU which has divided the Line from TUL. I am not quite sure where MCI is or where they want to be. I hope that MCI will see that the mechanic and related across the AA system, while in minority in numbers, but the majority of stations has opted for this change in representation, as have most of the mechanics at other airlines.
Steve Connell
Senior
- Aug 16, 2003
- 322
- 0
Well Buck...if it's any consolation what so ever, attendance is low I believe at all halls, all unions, due to the increasing benefits destruction and outsourcing of work overseas by all business. The average working man is currently taking a beating in all fields. We all missed the ball when PATCO went out and we did not follow nationwide, our loss.
I don't believe I shall speak for MCI as I have my own opinion of change and direction, MCI will and does have the chance to find their own route to take. I have always been a unionist believing to work within the system dealt me, and I will continue on the same way......SC
I don't believe I shall speak for MCI as I have my own opinion of change and direction, MCI will and does have the chance to find their own route to take. I have always been a unionist believing to work within the system dealt me, and I will continue on the same way......SC
