Local 514 President Tell Members Aa Headed For Bk

[air_guy]

Introducing the Oracle of Aviation-AIR_GUY!!!!

Now you should work on your English Grammar.

[post="307424"][/post]​

I am answering to Ch12's attack of my airline history knowledge. I am not arguing with you, your knowledge of airline industry, which seems to be pretty vast. Thanks for helping me with my grammar. I am glad to see that you are useful for something else than bashing your own employer.

 

[Bob Owens]

I am answering to Ch12's attack of my airline history knowledge. I am not arguing with you, your knowledge of airline industry, which seems to be pretty vast. Thanks for helping me with my grammar. I am glad to see that you are useful for something else than bashing your own employer.

[post="307431"][/post]​

Well my goal isnt to bash my employer, they are looking out for their interests, as you know I always eventually get back to going after the organization I pay to represent my interests.

 

[Ch. 12]

I am answering to Ch12's attack of my airline history knowledge. I am not arguing with you, your knowledge of airline industry, which seems to be pretty vast. Thanks for helping me with my grammar. I am glad to see that you are useful for something else than bashing your own employer.

[post="307431"][/post]​

with all due respect, airguy, you know that you are only attacking my knowledge of the airlines b/c you don't have a clue about the history of anything. You happen to live close to DAL and that makes you an expert on the industry? You already didn't know that Braniff was put out of biz by AA. AA temporarily COMPLETELY changed their biz plan by creating a simple fare structure and brining all of their capacity to directly attack Braniff. Ask Lamar what happened at Braniff...he'll tell you (he should also tell you that he wasn't the wisest of all expansionists). You also had no idea about Legend Airlines...another instance of where AMR changed their plan by stating that the public desperatly wanted this new product out of Love but then, a few months later, the all-of-a-sudden dropped all activity at DAL...after putting Legend out of business. Look at all of the illegitimate practices (fact...not fiction...rather than me cite them...read history. I don't need to be your historian and educator) that AMR did to get Legend to collapse...including converting office space to gates outside of their lease agreement at DAL. So get away from the personal attacks unless you can justify. I just justified mine.

Back to the topic at hand...what in the world do you mean that the argument that lower airfares will not increase demand??? Now you don't even know economics? Sure...WN could go into DFW with low FARES and so could any other LCC for that matter. But they will not have low COSTS there and are subjected to long delays and having no say in traffic decisions at the airport b/c the vast majority of revenue at DFW comes from AA. AMR has definitely demonstrated that it is an intelligent company and knows how to exploit situations where it is the dominant carrier. And I don't care about WN. I don't work there and I am not a cheerleader. Please do not turn this into a WN issue. I would love to see B6 and FL be able to serve Dallas/Ft Worth in a situation where they don't have to tremendously raise costs as well. I'd add F9 and the new US/HP to that as well. There is definitely demand in Dallas so why can't any LCC make it there? AMR and DFW have an extremely close relationship and are not willing to lose their dominant positions in Dallas. They chased DAL out, didn't they?

So don't tell me that I don't know about the industry just b/c you have no defense. That is about as mature as saying "i know you are but what am i". You have proven over and over to know some things about the industry but that you cannot get into the details b/c you just don't know. What you do know is what you see in your AMR pamphlets on how the sky will fall if DAL is opened up to through traffic and real markets. You know the propoganda and not the facts/history.

Please tell me what worries you so much about repealling even part of this legislation. Your argument that it should be all or nothing is ridiculous b/c it means you aren't willing to compromise and are just clawing to keep this enormous protection in place for AMR. So why, oh why, is it so bad to allow free competition. And limiting existing facilities is NOT free competition (i.e. "just move to DFW" is not an answer b/c that is not what I am asking.)

 

[Ch. 12]

PS to Airguy-

...I have been around these boards so feel free to ask around about my knowledge. Please do not make allegations on things that you cannot support.

 

[Oneflyer]

But they will not have low COSTS there and are subjected to long delays and having no say in traffic decisions at the airport b/c the vast majority of revenue at DFW comes from AA.

DFW has one of the lowest costs per seat mile of any airport in the country. To say that DFW is a High Cost airport is just not true. It also is not overcrowded, long delays at DFW come primarily of Thunderstorms which you'll find at DAL as well. If it is such a high cost airport, why does every other low cost carrier fly out of there or plan to fly out of DFW, exept for Southwest?

The fact is that Southwest, has created misconceptions about DFW, to gain leverage with the public. The real monopoly in Dallas is at Love Field and if the Wright Amedment is repealed and the Love Field masterplan is upheld, WN's monopoly will only grow.

AMR has definitely demonstrated that it is an intelligent company and knows how to exploit situations where it is the dominant carrier. And I don't care about WN. I don't work there and I am not a cheerleader. Please do not turn this into a WN issue. I would love to see B6 and FL be able to serve Dallas/Ft Worth in a situation where they don't have to tremendously raise costs as well. I'd add F9 and the new US/HP to that as well. There is definitely demand in Dallas so why can't any LCC make it there? AMR and DFW have an extremely close relationship and are not willing to lose their dominant positions in Dallas.

The primary reason you don't see a major presence at DFW by a low cost carrier is Southwest and the threat of the repeal of the Wright Amendment. Airtran has been expanding at DFW for the last 2 years, but after the Wright Amed. talk came up again they have stopped cold. They can go head to head with AA, but no one wants to go up against WN at Love, especially when they might not be able to get more than a gate or two. Essentially, Southwest has stoped any growth at DFW, by any airline other than AA, cold.

 

[Bob Owens]

Look at all of the illegitimate practices (fact...not fiction...rather than me cite them...read history. I don't need to be your historian and educator) that AMR did to get Legend to collapse...including converting office space to gates outside of their lease agreement at DAL.

[post="308044"][/post]​

Lets not forget how the company pays off union officials to the tune of $3.1 million a year (their figures). Not only did they fail to file these payments with the Dept of Labor but these payments are illegal for obvious reasons.

$3.1 million/year in payola gets you over $700 million in concessions! Talk about ROI!!!

Failure to file only carries a small fine-$10,000.

 

[eolesen]

CH.12, you're full of crap where BN is concerned. They killed themselves starting in 1977 when they started ordering more aircraft than they knew what to do with... Harding Lawrence was convinced that deregulation was going to last for only two years. By 1981, they were already a walking corpse.

By the way, the pricing plan you accuse AA of was actually Braniff's. They're the ones who introduced one class service in a clone of Texas International's "Peanut Fares". AA chose to match.

Crandall's handling of BN was brilliant. He stepped into the void they created.

 

[j7915]

CH.12, you're full of crap where BN is concerned. They killed themselves starting in 1977 when they started ordering more aircraft than they knew what to do with... Harding Lawrence was convinced that deregulation was going to last for only two years. By 1981, they were already a walking corpse.

By the way, the pricing plan you accuse AA of was actually Braniff's. They're the ones who introduced one class service in a clone of Texas International's "Peanut Fares". AA chose to match.

Crandall's handling of BN was brilliant. He stepped into the void they created.

[post="308100"][/post]​

To add to the above:
According to an article in Fortune, at that time, Braniff, overextended and spread themselves too thin. Their mngt was afraid deregulation was apassing fad and wanted to be grandfathered in at lots of airports they did not previously serve under regulation

 

[Ch. 12]

CH.12, you're full of crap where BN is concerned. They killed themselves starting in 1977 when they started ordering more aircraft than they knew what to do with... Harding Lawrence was convinced that deregulation was going to last for only two years. By 1981, they were already a walking corpse.

By the way, the pricing plan you accuse AA of was actually Braniff's. They're the ones who introduced one class service in a clone of Texas International's "Peanut Fares". AA chose to match.

Crandall's handling of BN was brilliant. He stepped into the void they created.

[post="308100"][/post]​

I'm sorry...did I not mention over expansion as the beginning of the end? Oh wait...yep...I sure see it there in my post. And I do apologize for mixing up ex-WN execs Howard and Lamar...should have said Howard in my post. You are right...that was the beginning of the end. However...in typical AMR style, they all-of-a-sudden realized that the consumer wanted these simple fare structures and they not only matched but went below BN forcing them to go even lower. At this point, both carriers were at loss-leader fares and it was a matter of who could sustain. Of course it was AMR who amazing discovered that the consumer really wanted the old, complex, HIGH fare structure of the past once BN shut their doors. Same happened with Legend, Reno, TW, Midway, etc, etc. In all cases AMR went against what they said was going to be their long term plan. And Crandall began stepping (leaping) into DFW prior to the end of BN...two years, in fact. You are right...he is intelligent and saw the protection that the WA would provide if he could build a fortress there.

But this is not an issue of ethics...just wanted you to know where the spin that you subscribe to on how the world will collapse w/o the WA originates. Where I CAN state that I am unbiased but can read the history for what it is...your name on these boards kind of tells me that you see things through rose-colored glasses when it comes to your wonderful employer.

 

[Ch. 12]

DFW has one of the lowest costs per seat mile of any airport in the country. To say that DFW is a High Cost airport is just not true. It also is not overcrowded, long delays at DFW come primarily of Thunderstorms which you'll find at DAL as well. If it is such a high cost airport, why does every other low cost carrier fly out of there or plan to fly out of DFW, exept for Southwest?

[post="308049"][/post]​

C'mon, oneflyer. You can do better than that. I don't have the CASM numbers that you reference but can easily decipher them. DFW is a longhaul airport so of course it has a lower CASM. Other busy airports like LAX and LGA would obviously have a higher CASM b/c they serve close-in cities as well. You see...that is the joy of the WA...there are no cities close to DFW to allow any decent service from DAL. I would also assume that CASM from DAL is much higher. Simple math. And long delays from DFW DO come from t-storms but they also come from banks of AA flights that aren't quite as quick to taxi as the LCCs as we all know. And it is simple why other LCCs don't fly out of DAL...THERE IS NOWHERE TO GO!!! Do you expect FL to come into DAL just so that they can serve AMA or ELP? Perhaps a good DAL-OKC flight?? No...that would be ridiculous and is THE reason that you don't see the LCCs flying out of DAL. The reason you don't see them flying more out of DFW is b/c it is impossible against AMR. I would be afraid to b/c I know what they have done to competitors in the past.

The fact is that Southwest, has created misconceptions about DFW, to gain leverage with the public. The real monopoly in Dallas is at Love Field and if the Wright Amedment is repealed and the Love Field masterplan is upheld, WN's monopoly will only grow.
The primary reason you don't see a major presence at DFW by a low cost carrier is Southwest and the threat of the repeal of the Wright Amendment. Airtran has been expanding at DFW for the last 2 years, but after the Wright Amed. talk came up again they have stopped cold. They can go head to head with AA, but no one wants to go up against WN at Love, especially when they might not be able to get more than a gate or two. Essentially, Southwest has stoped any growth at DFW, by any airline other than AA, cold.

[post="308049"][/post]​

Love field monopoly?? To where?! Intra-TX and the surrounding megaloplis's of TUL and LIT?! That has been one of the worst (and they have all been pretty bad) arguments that DFW and AA have been brainwashing you with. No...FL stopped expanding at DFW b/c DL (you know...their primary competition) pulled out and FL moved new flights to continue attacking them. DL couldn't make it there and who knows how long FL will. But do not try to pin FL's choice on "discussions about the WA". That is a horrible argument and is complete BS. And from what I recall seeing...WN would only have the potential to have 60-65% of gates at DAL...did you know that AMR has an approx 75% share at DFW? I think I would choose DAL. There are open gates now and will be more b/c WN won't be able to retain all that they currently have from what I understand.

Essentially, Southwest has stoped any growth at DFW, by any airline other than AA, cold.

[post="308049"][/post]​

Please read above. You know this isn't true...don't try to distort the obvious just to create a weak argument to retain ridiculously competition-limiting legislation. If we are going to regulate to allow advantages for AMR, we should do the same for the entire industry.

 

[Garfield1966]

I have some questions.

My understanding was that at one time there were two airports in the DFW area. I believe one was Mechum and the other was Love. Right or wrong?

The story I heard and read was that the two cities came together and decided that one centrally located big airport was better than two smaller airports so they decided to close BOTH airports and build DFW. How am I doing so far?

If I recall, WN was already at Love and wanted to stay there. They wanted a variance allowing them to fly out of Love. So instead of shutting Love down, the WA came into being allowing Love to stay open but only for short haul flights to neighboring states.

Now if this is the case (which I believe it to be) then WN needs to live with the agreement that they have lived with for the past 30 or what ever years. WN agreed back in 1973 to stay at Love and only operate intrastate flights. Now WN wants to change the rules. They are more than welcome to come DFW. Love should have been shut down back in the 1970’s

Just like those folks who move near an airport and then start to complain that there is too much noise, you can’t decided to stay at an airport, make your plan work and then decided that you do not like the rules that helped protect you for so long and want to change them. Were it not for the WA, WN may or may not have become as successful as they are. The WA should never have been implemented in the first place. Love should have been shut down as originally planned.

 

[FWAAA]

I have some questions.

My understanding was that at one time there were two airports in the DFW area. I believe one was Mechum and the other was Love. Right or wrong?

The story I heard and read was that the two cities came together and decided that one centrally located big airport was better than two smaller airports so they decided to close BOTH airports and build DFW. How am I doing so far?

If I recall, WN was already at Love and wanted to stay there. They wanted a variance allowing them to fly out of Love. So instead of shutting Love down, the WA came into being allowing Love to stay open but only for short haul flights to neighboring states.

The first several paragraphs are basically ok, but this last paragraph is completly at odds with reality. WN was NOT already at DAL when the decision to build DFW was made. And nobody "agreed" to shut down DAL. Airlines in existence all signed on to moving to DFW, but WN didn't exist then. So it didn't "agree" to anything. Braniff was the big player then, along with Texas Air. The WA wasn't a "variance" allowing WN to fly at DAL, it was a restriction placed upon an airline at the request of AA, Braniff and others.

Now if this is the case (which I believe it to be) then WN needs to live with the agreement that they have lived with for the past 30 or what ever years. WN agreed back in 1973 to stay at Love and only operate intrastate flights. Now WN wants to change the rules. They are more than welcome to come DFW. Love should have been shut down back in the 1970’s

WN made no such agreement. The Wright Amendment was a restriction placed upon WN at the behest of AA and others, and WN simply lived with it.

In legal terms, your argument boils down to what lawyers call "laches," a doctrine basically holding that if you suffer a restriction or breach or other disability for a long time, then at some point you lose the ability to complain about it. Since WN has lived under the WA restrictions for many, many years, your view is that WN lost its legal right to complain about it forever.

I disagree with your view, and I'm a rabid AA fan. But in this case, AA looks like a spoiled child in its arguments. So does the DFW management.

Just like those folks who move near an airport and then start to complain that there is too much noise, you can’t decided to stay at an airport, make your plan work and then decided that you do not like the rules that helped protect you for so long and want to change them. Were it not for the WA, WN may or may not have become as successful as they are. The WA should never have been implemented in the first place. Love should have been shut down as originally planned.

[post="308253"][/post]​

The Wright Amendment actually helped protect WN? That's a good one! Thanks for the chuckle.

Keep drinking the AA Kool-Aid. Looks like somebody spiked it.

 

[Wretched Wrench]

I have some questions.

My understanding was that at one time there were two airports in the DFW area. I believe one was Mechum and the other was Love. Right or wrong?

There was also Amon Carter Field/GSW, which was AA's base.

Here's a nice link that has it pretty straight:

http://www.answers.com/topic/dallas-fort-w...ational-airport

.

 

[Oneflyer]

C'mon, oneflyer. You can do better than that. I don't have the CASM numbers that you reference but can easily decipher them. DFW is a longhaul airport so of course it has a lower CASM. Other busy airports like LAX and LGA would obviously have a higher CASM b/c they serve close-in cities as well.

Have you ever actually been to DFW? DFW is much less of a longhaul airport than LAX. It sits in the damn middle of the country, no place domestically, is truelly long haul. Of course, I guess AA's flights to austin, waco, tyler, longview, abilene, lubbuck, SAT, Houston, El paso, OKC, TUL, LIT, XNA, SHV, COS, ABQ, and on and on don't count? Are crazy. On a caomparison basis to other large and even medium sized airports DFW is cheap, Southwest can make money there, they know it, and they've even said it.

You see...that is the joy of the WA...there are no cities close to DFW to allow any decent service from DAL. I would also assume that CASM from DAL is much higher. Simple math. And long delays from DFW DO come from t-storms but they also come from banks of AA flights that aren't quite as quick to taxi as the LCCs as we all know.

Really? Since AA depeaked its schedule I don't see this as being a problem. Especially, when WN flies into places like PHL and LAX that get even more crowded.

And it is simple why other LCCs don't fly out of DAL...THERE IS NOWHERE TO GO!!! Do you expect FL to come into DAL just so that they can serve AMA or ELP? Perhaps a good DAL-OKC flight?? No...that would be ridiculous and is THE reason that you don't see the LCCs flying out of DAL. The reason you don't see them flying more out of DFW is b/c it is impossible against AMR. I would be afraid to b/c I know what they have done to competitors in the past.

You're missing the point. My point was that all the low cost carriers already opperate out of DFW, there is no reason Southwest can't.

To say the Airtran stopped growing because Delta pulled out is about the stupidist thing i've ever heard, the logic doesn't work. Airtran won, so they stopped growing? Come on. Airtran executives have already said in interviews that they want to expand in Dallas but they are waiting to see how the WA debate plays out.

 

[Oneflyer]

WN made no such agreement. The Wright Amendment was a restriction placed upon WN at the behest of AA and others, and WN simply lived with it.

In legal terms, your argument boils down to what lawyers call "laches," a doctrine basically holding that if you suffer a restriction or breach or other disability for a long time, then at some point you lose the ability to complain about it. Since WN has lived under the WA restrictions for many, many years, your view is that WN lost its legal right to complain about it forever.

I disagree with your view, and I'm a rabid AA fan. But in this case, AA looks like a spoiled child in its arguments. So does the DFW management.

Herb Keller drafted the Wright Amendment and was happy to get it, to say that WN simply lived with it is just not ture.

The fact is that North Texas has greatly benefited from DFW. Though roughly the same size Dallas/Fort Worth has substantially more traffic than Houston.

If you repeal the WA, growth at DFW will be stopped permantly, no airline will fly into DFW, when they can fly out of Love field and given that Love field is has parallel runways it can acomodate a lot more growth than places like Hobby or Midway. In 5 year you'd have a much smaller AA at DFW and everyone else at Love Field which would be jam packed, old, rundown, and extremely congested. You can forget about the international flights, but hey we'll all be able to get to New York for $99 each way via Islip with stops in Little Rock, Nashville, and a plane change in Baltimore. I flight that used to take 3 hours will take 3 days.

The Wright Amendment actually helped protect WN? That's a good one! Thanks for the chuckle.

Keep drinking the AA Kool-Aid. Looks like somebody spiked it.

Actually it did help Southwest, because when southwest was starting up it gave people a reason to fly southwest, Love field and hobby were much closer to downtown. It also retricted there growth to a more measured pace, which was probably a good thing in the long run.