TWU/IAM Members: How Long Will Negotiations Take?

[swamt]

I know you will. The kooks will be front and center as usual I'm sure. Hopefully the company will stay out of it this time, but I doubt it. I think if, that is if, the IAMPF gets forced on us in the T/A, I think some card signers will step up. It's just a huge non-starter for our careers, and the anger will then be boiling over.

We will see.

Of course they will. The company will not stay out of it, they do not want to lose their favorite union that always likes to agree to everything the company wants without a fight. They have been used to it for over 30 years and are just expecting the same for 30 more. To even think about another card drive the TWU side better get together and on the same page because more than likely none of the LUS guys are going to vote for a different union due to the pension lingering out there.

 

[1AA]

Of course they will. The company will not stay out of it, they do not want to lose their favorite union that always likes to agree to everything the company wants without a fight. They have been used to it for over 30 years and are just expecting the same for 30 more. To even think about another card drive the TWU side better get together and on the same page because more than likely none of the LUS guys are going to vote for a different union due to the pension lingering out there.

If AA kills the IAMPF contributions and imposes the same medical plan as AAER'S have to the IAM guys you still won't see a successful card drive. AA guys represented by the TWU will see that as a victory against the IAM and the Association. The division will never stop.
It will always be some form of US versus Them. I told guys if your within 10 years or less of retirement you should worry more about retirement benefits and less about a card drive for new representation. It's not worth it anymore for us ole timers.

 

[Bob Owens]

I think John John is referring to the CWA-IBT Passenger Service Association that came about when HP/US combined in 2005.

Unlike the TWU-IAM Association, the CWA-IBT gave their members the opportunity to choose.

HP (West) had recently organized IBT but didn’t have their initial CBA while USAIR (East) had been organized by CWA since late 1990s

Josh

I forgot about that. Their Unions didn't lie to them. The IBT side had only just become represented and they didn't even have their first contract in place. The Watcher also went on to say that those members are OK with the Association which isn't surprising since apparently those members from America West were ok without a Union, like most of the working population of the country and only got a Union when they realized that with the merger, without a Union they would likely get stapled to the bottom of the Seniority list.
Abe Lincoln said it best "A house divided can not stand". If we are divided between two unions we will never have the Unity (that the pilots or Flight attendants have, and even theirs isn't perfect) to take on the company and get us an industry leading contract. Industry leading not for a few hours on DOS and bottom of the industry for the next five years, when they then take 4 years to negotiate their next 5 or 6 year momentarily "industry leading contract" (with a measly $3000 signing bonus) but a short two year at most industry leading contract. (Remember long term contracts are only binding on workers, the AMR bankruptcy proves that even healthy profitable companies can use C-11 to get concessions through court that they could not get at the bargaining table) We saw how the IAM sat out any criticism of Parker even while the TWU side was having demonstrations (An IAM member even crashed a town hall to praise Parker). THEY HAD AN OPPORTUNITY TO PULL OFF A DISPLAY OF UNITY AND THEY FAILED!!! This Association has already proven that they cant even pull off a unified demonstration, let alone an industry leading contract. How many more years do we have to give them before we have had enough?

 

[WeAAsles]

If AA kills the IAMPF contributions and imposes the same medical plan as AAER'S have to the IAM guys you still won't see a successful card drive. AA guys represented by the TWU will see that as a victory against the IAM and the Association. The division will never stop.
It will always be some form of US versus Them. I told guys if your within 10 years or less of retirement you should worry more about retirement benefits and less about a card drive for new representation. It's not worth it anymore for us ole timers.

I don’t think if you poll around the Country the average worker cares about or even thinks about any division or them vs us mentality. This is something that I think exists more in the minds of Airline Forums posters rather than in the minds of most people on the ramps and shop floors. And it also maybe exists in the minds of people who have focused on the negatives of life for far too long. The obsessive.

I’m sure IAM Members would be ok if their IAMPF Benefits were frozen if the replacement was a better 401k contribution/match then what’s currently being offered? The value has to be worth the trade off.

“Imposes” the same Medical Plan? “Imposes”? No. The IAM is a 50% vote on what to accept and bring back to the entirety of the membership. They don’t have to accept a sub par medical expense just because the Company wants to “impose” one.

BTW why do ANY of us want to pay potentially thousands more per year for Medical?

It’s just loopy as hell coo coo that anyone is not supporting trying to gain cheaper medical costs. Especially you old birds who maybe were around way back when you didn’t even pay a dime for medical. (Stop being hoodwinked)

 

[Bob Owens]

I don’t think if you poll around the Country the average worker cares about or even thinks about any division or them vs us mentality. This is something that I think exists more in the minds of Airline Forums posters rather than in the minds of most people on the ramps and shop floors. And it also maybe exists in the minds of people who have focused on the negatives of life for far too long. The obsessive.

I’m sure IAM Members would be ok if their IAMPF Benefits were frozen if the replacement was a better 401k contribution/match then what’s currently being offered? The value has to be worth the trade off.

“Imposes” the same Medical Plan? “Imposes”? No. The IAM is a 50% vote on what to accept and bring back to the entirety of the membership. They don’t have to accept a sub par medical expense just because the Company wants to “impose” one.

BTW why do ANY of us want to pay potentially thousands more per year for Medical?

It’s just loopy as hell coo coo that anyone is not supporting trying to gain cheaper medical costs. Especially you old birds who maybe were around way back when you didn’t even pay a dime for medical. (Stop being hoodwinked)

That's pretty much the same line of thought that companies use when a Union tries to organize on their property. Do you really think that nobody noticed that the TWU was demonstrating while the IAM did not? The fact is its been years and while most don't talk about the fact they didnt get to vote they do still resent it.

I agree that IAM Members would be OK with freezing the plan for one of comparable value, but not too sure the IAM leadership would like that.

Yes the IAM is 50%, but according to the Association Agreement after two years the tie breaker vote changes from IAM to TWU, That two years has passed. According to the Association document the TWU can break a tie. That said I don't see the TWU wanting to bring back anything less as far as Medical than what the IAM has unless big gains are made elsewhere. If workers saw a 16% 401K Contribution that could add around between $9000 (LAA) to $16000 (LUS) to a topped out A&P's compensation. This would offset the increased medical costs for LUS and possibly the loss of the IAMNPF. Would LUS Medical costs go up over $5500/year if they had the AA plan?

I would love to see us get the LUS plan, but to lose another year of of a 16% 401K contribution to get it really doesn't add up.

 

[737823]

I forgot about that. Their Unions didn't lie to them. The IBT side had only just become represented and they didn't even have their first contract in place. The Watcher also went on to say that those members are OK with the Association which isn't surprising since apparently those members from America West were ok without a Union, like most of the working population of the country and only got a Union when they realized that with the merger, without a Union they would likely get stapled to the bottom of the Seniority list.
Abe Lincoln said it best "A house divided can not stand". If we are divided between two unions we will never have the Unity (that the pilots or Flight attendants have, and even theirs isn't perfect) to take on the company and get us an industry leading contract. Industry leading not for a few hours on DOS and bottom of the industry for the next five years, when they then take 4 years to negotiate their next 5 or 6 year momentarily "industry leading contract" (with a measly $3000 signing bonus) but a short two year at most industry leading contract. (Remember long term contracts are only binding on workers, the AMR bankruptcy proves that even healthy profitable companies can use C-11 to get concessions through court that they could not get at the bargaining table) We saw how the IAM sat out any criticism of Parker even while the TWU side was having demonstrations (An IAM member even crashed a town hall to praise Parker). THEY HAD AN OPPORTUNITY TO PULL OFF A DISPLAY OF UNITY AND THEY FAILED!!! This Association has already proven that they cant even pull off a unified demonstration, let alone an industry leading contract. How many more years do we have to give them before we have had enough?

Bob do you remember the TWU slogan “one union, one voice”?

The association is totally going against that!

Josh

 

[B737 driver]

That's pretty much the same line of thought that companies use when a Union tries to organize on their property. Do you really think that nobody noticed that the TWU was demonstrating while the IAM did not? The fact is its been years and while most don't talk about the fact they didnt get to vote they do still resent it.

I agree that IAM Members would be OK with freezing the plan for one of comparable value, but not too sure the IAM leadership would like that.

Yes the IAM is 50%, but according to the Association Agreement after two years the tie breaker vote changes from IAM to TWU, That two years has passed. According to the Association document the TWU can break a tie. That said I don't see the TWU wanting to bring back anything less as far as Medical than what the IAM has unless big gains are made elsewhere. If workers saw a 16% 401K Contribution that could add around between $9000 (LAA) to $16000 (LUS) to a topped out A&P's compensation. This would offset the increased medical costs for LUS and possibly the loss of the IAMNPF. Would LUS Medical costs go up over $5500/year if they had the AA plan?

I would love to see us get the LUS plan, but to lose another year of of a 16% 401K contribution to get it really doesn't add up.

Is the company offering a 16% match 401k .What happens to the pension money is it frozen, and if you guys agree to that, how much money, can you expect from a frozen pension a month?

 

[Bob Owens]

Bob do you remember the TWU slogan “one union, one voice”?

The association is totally going against that!

Josh

Exactly! This Association is about dues. Neither wants to risk losing their membership and both have done such a lousy job they really are concerned that if they opened the door to a vote they would lose.

 

[Bob Owens]

Is the company offering a 16% match 401k .What happens to the pension money is it frozen, and if you guys agree to that, how much money, can you expect from a frozen pension a month?

The company already made it known they offered 9, which is what they gave the Flight Attendants in Bankruptcy, now its up to the Negotiators to drive home the argument for the same percentage the pilots get (which they also got in BK but they lost a much more generous plan than ours). Our pension was frozen in the BK, earned benefits up to what we earned to that point are guaranteed, I imagine the same would happen with your IAMNPF, but you benefits are not guaranteed, but that's the same whether its frozen or even after you retire, they could cut benefits if the plan runs short of money, which it probably will. Even at 16%, along with us maxed out at $24500 in contributions per year from our paycheck its not likely that we would be able to save enough to make up for what we lost if we expect to live off the gains but its a big improvement. They really screwed the 50 and over guys here because we simply dont have enough years to put away what we need to in order to have the income we were promised for 30 plus years.

 

[WeAAsles]

Is the company offering a 16% match 401k .What happens to the pension money is it frozen, and if you guys agree to that, how much money, can you expect from a frozen pension a month?

The Company has not offered a 16%, they have only offered 9%.

As far as how much a member could receive depends on how long he’s been in it.

 

[WeAAsles]

Exactly! This Association is about dues. Neither wants to risk losing their membership and both have done such a lousy job they really are concerned that if they opened the door to a vote they would lose.

Boy you flip flop like a pancake.

 

[swamt]

If AA kills the IAMPF contributions and imposes the same medical plan as AAER'S have to the IAM guys you still won't see a successful card drive. AA guys represented by the TWU will see that as a victory against the IAM and the Association. The division will never stop.
It will always be some form of US versus Them. I told guys if your within 10 years or less of retirement you should worry more about retirement benefits and less about a card drive for new representation. It's not worth it anymore for us ole timers.

I hear ya. And I think it will be too hard now that US and AA is almost one airline.

Exactly! This Association is about dues. Neither wants to risk losing their membership and both have done such a lousy job they really are concerned that if they opened the door to a vote they would lose.

We all know good and well if they "opened up the door" to a vote the asso. would lose big time. And they know it too, hence, the asso. crammed down your throats instead of the promised vote for the asso. Typical industrial unions at work that only see the dues moneys not the membership as a whole...

 

[Bob Owens]

Boy you flip flop like a pancake.

No Flip Flop, I've said this Association was about Dues since day 1. Where did I say it wasnt? There may be additional reasons but Dues was the main one. Virella even said it was our (Maint) fault because of all the AMFA drives. The Association even admitted it themselves when they said the intent of the structure was to ensure that each Union had around the same amount of members in the end as they did in the beginning. That's why Boston was going IAM even though we had more members than the IAM there. I don't know who you are or where you were but I was there. I dont hide behind an Alias and make accusations, like you.

 

[WeAAsles]

No Flip Flop, I've said this Association was about Dues since day 1. Where did I say it wasnt? There may be additional reasons but Dues was the main one. Virella even said it was our (Maint) fault because of all the AMFA drives. The Association even admitted it themselves when they said the intent of the structure was to ensure that each Union had around the same amount of members in the end as they did in the beginning. That's why Boston was going IAM even though we had more members than the IAM there. I don't know who you are or where you were but I was there. I dont hide behind an Alias and make accusations, like you.

Enough’s enough. What’s your agenda Bob?

 

[B737 driver]

No Flip Flop, I've said this Association was about Dues since day 1. Where did I say it wasnt? There may be additional reasons but Dues was the main one. Virella even said it was our (Maint) fault because of all the AMFA drives. The Association even admitted it themselves when they said the intent of the structure was to ensure that each Union had around the same amount of members in the end as they did in the beginning. That's why Boston was going IAM even though we had more members than the IAM there. I don't know who you are or where you were but I was there. I dont hide behind an Alias and make accusations, like you.

I can totally understand your guys frustration, Weazz was right, this Association is not going anywhere, they have basically built a fence , around the American USair guys assuring the votes are not there for a successful card drive, locking you guys into a perpetual motion union dues machine.