TWU-IAM Finally Getting Ready for JCBA Negotiations

[Overspeed]

Rogallo,
Both own part of the problem but who cares. The point is someone needs to fix it.
 
NYer,
Bob's laying the foundation to blame others for when the 591 vote no coalition can't deliver. While I think that the ATD should have assigned someone from the M&R group to chair our committee, Bob needs to have someone else be accountable for his failings. He's been pulling this stunt for years. Blamed Koziatek, Orlando, Videtich, Little, and Gless. Drummond and Doyle are now going to be who Bob blames for everything and why 591 can't deliver on their promises.

 

[Real tired]

Great
 

Everyone of my co-workers that I have kept in touch with are very happy with what they are doing and have it better than the alternative we struck for. Some are still in aviation. A few went into tech, pharmaceutical, energy, transportation (rail, subway, etc.). A few started their own businesses and have been wildly successful entrepreneurs.

The ones who are not successful were the slugs who all became scabs anyway. Those that had no skills, could not fill out an application or pass an interview, and those who had bad records (knowing that once they left they could no longer pass a company new hire background check and get no decent reference).

Now delta gets to enjoy the fruits of their worthless labor if they have not been fired. I know many of the ones who took manager jobs just before the strike were mostly all canned after the merger. Sweet justice.

Great post.  And how true.
 
I just wish I took my buddy's advice years ago when he said, "don't go work with Allegheny, come with me to the railroads (P&LE), they are hiring and it'll be a blast."  He's done so much better than me in the long run.
 
And always remember the scabs of northwest (delta).  Never forget.

 

[La Li Lu Le Lo]

Everyone of my co-workers that I have kept in touch with are very happy with what they are doing and have it better than the alternative we struck for. Some are still in aviation. A few went into tech, pharmaceutical, energy, transportation (rail, subway, etc.). A few started their own businesses and have been wildly successful entrepreneurs.

The ones who are not successful were the slugs who all became scabs anyway. Those that had no skills, could not fill out an application or pass an interview, and those who had bad records (knowing that once they left they could no longer pass a company new hire background check and get no decent reference).

Now delta gets to enjoy the fruits of their worthless labor if they have not been fired. I know many of the ones who took manager jobs just before the strike were mostly all canned after the merger. Sweet justice.

Indeed.

 

[La Li Lu Le Lo]

Rogallo,
Both own part of the problem but who cares. The point is someone needs to fix it.
 
NYer,
Bob's laying the foundation to blame others for when the 591 vote no coalition can't deliver. While I think that the ATD should have assigned someone from the M&R group to chair our committee, Bob needs to have someone else be accountable for his failings. He's been pulling this stunt for years. Blamed Koziatek, Orlando, Videtich, Little, and Gless. Drummond and Doyle are now going to be who Bob blames for everything and why 591 can't deliver on their promises.

I don't see the other people you mentioned having a dialog with the membership the way Bob does.
 
As much as Bob posts on this forum if he were a liar someone would have called him on it by now.
 
I have yet to see that call made.
 
That being said I have to ask................ what's your problem with the guy?

 

[Rogallo]

Rogallo,
Both own part of the problem but who cares. The point is someone needs to fix it.
 

 
Brilliant!

 

[Vortilon]

Rogallo,
Both own part of the problem but who cares. The point is someone needs to fix it.
 
NYer,
Bob's laying the foundation to blame others for when the 591 vote no coalition can't deliver. While I think that the ATD should have assigned someone from the M&R group to chair our committee, Bob needs to have someone else be accountable for his failings. He's been pulling this stunt for years. Blamed Koziatek, Orlando, Videtich, Little, and Gless. Drummond and Doyle are now going to be who Bob blames for everything and why 591 can't deliver on their promises.

 
La Li is right, none of those guys you mentioned are as forthright as Bob has been on this board.  What it sounds more like is, you're going on the offensive against Bob cause you are not as confident in the makeup of this negotiating committee as you would let on.  Nice try though.  It seems more like you are mad at Bob for speaking out - about the behind the scenes goings on at the TWU international.  You then attempt to discredit him - that is attempt.  Not working.....
 
BTW, how could you even suggest that the last two contracts were Bob's failings alone?  As if he had systemwide notariety way back then, or even now for that matter to the point of influencing AMTs votes?  Not even close.

 

[Overspeed]

Vortillon,
Never said the previous contract failures were his alone. What happened during committee I don't know. I do know that even if we accept Bob's statements that he fought for this, or lobbied for that, or screamed at someone, the fact remains is that it is a committee. Everyone there votes and if the chairman was able to convince enough people to vote a particular way well that's the way it works. People voted in committee to send out the TAs and Bob was not able to convince enough of them to vote his way. Bob saying it was the chair's fault alone, well that is a lie. It doesn't work that way.
 
I am very confident in the committee to make something happen. What will happen? I have no idea but I hope we get everything Bob says we deserve. He will definitely have my vote when I see the UPS wage with no additional work outsourced contract. I'm ready. I am counting on Bob and the vote no coalition to deliver on their aspirations.
 
Knapp and Rojas do come out on the floor. Knapp even wears his uniform and works with them. My buddies that work there have told me so. Only other person that does that I see here is Mishak.
 
And you're right. Knapp and Rojas are not on this board ever. They are getting sh*t done in MIA.

 

[Bob Owens]

Bob,
When you don't work for the airline you start back at zero but you do get unemployment. Soon you get another job and few make what they were making when they left. Pretty simple to see that keeping your job is more pay and bennies than not having a job even if it is for a little while.
 
 

How do you figure that? During the 60's , 70's and early 80's people routinely got laid off during the low end of the cycles and got rehired until they got enough seniority where the layoffs didn't get to them anymore. They didn't start back at zero, many went straight back to top rate which only took two years back then. When I was at Capital during the PATCO strike we had guys come over who had 25 years at UAL, maybe 10 years at AA, but shortly afterwards they were all called back. At Capital they made around 15% less than they were making at UAL  and AA but they went back to top rates. So actually its better to take the layoffs for short periods than to give decades of concessions, instead of facing short layoffs where we may have temporarily reduced wages we agreed to long term reduced wages where in effect we ended up working for free. As I said before we had around 300 guys on the recall for NY, around 20 came back, the rest didn't, if things were better at AA then they would have come back, UAL and Delta were both experiencing the same thing, recalls were not coming back because they found better jobs. 
 

There are plenty of reports that show most people who lost their jobs during the airline BKs never got paid what they were making before. Maybe it would have been better to have let AA go BK in 2003. More AMFA supporters would be out on the street. And you would still be here with me but I would be saying I told you so and you would be, "WTF happened??? I thought I had this figured out."
 

Plenty of reports? Show us one that shows that those workers ended up worse off than we are with less Holidays than non-union, less vacation than non-union and lower wages both before and after BK than those who went BK, the fact is that both Delta and United are making more than we are. Do they have less workers? Yes, but so do we, we have less than 7000 A&P mechanics now. Its ironic that you would say that they aren't making what they were making before their employer went BK and ignore the fact that without going BK we gave up more than they did outside of BK. So lets see those reports that say those workers ended up worse off than we did. The fact is we know that workers currently at Delta and United are much better off than workers at AA. 
 
 

 I have seen nor heard anything from you that leads me to believe we will not be more in years of false promises and more blame.
 

 
Well you are consistent, show me one promise that I've made. 

 

[Bob Owens]

Vortilon,
Easy, the committee is in charge. And GP should have more influence than any one President has ever had. Sean is the chair and he only votes in the event of a tie. GP and Pike vote together right? So even if the fear is 514 having power over the committee, it can't happen and Sean has to follow the will and authority of the committee. The fleet participation isn't that great either. Even though they have some votes with Title II being in their locals, a roll call vote by GP can outweigh their effect. The effect of the Association is unknown at this point.
 
Good point on the Isom and Wroble comments. They and Kirby pointed out that DL plus 7 also has caveats. Specifically the scope language. Kirby stated in the video, very subtly, that DL has differences to our scope language. Will 591 protect even our now BK reduced scope language to swap for UPS/SW wages? Stay tuned...

Well all that as yet is undetermined because we don't know whats going on with the Association. Hopefully we will get to vote on it and we end up with just the TWU, then your scenario would have validity as far as Gary and Larry. 
 
DL doesn't have Scope or any other language, they are non-union, but they do get paid more than us, have more Holidays, vacation and sick time as well. 
 
Why would one thing have to be swapped for the other? There goes your defeatist, pro-company agenda , as usual. Its time to take. 

 

[Bob Owens]

Vortillon,
Never said the previous contract failures were his alone. What happened during committee I don't know. I do know that even if we accept Bob's statements that he fought for this, or lobbied for that, or screamed at someone, the fact remains is that it is a committee. Everyone there votes and if the chairman was able to convince enough people to vote a particular way well that's the way it works. People voted in committee to send out the TAs and Bob was not able to convince enough of them to vote his way. Bob saying it was the chair's fault alone, well that is a lie. It doesn't work that way.
 
 

You are a liar, I never said its the chairs fault alone. 

 

[Bob Owens]

Great
 
Great post.  And how true.
 
I just wish I took my buddy's advice years ago when he said, "don't go work with Allegheny, come with me to the railroads (P&LE), they are hiring and it'll be a blast."  He's done so much better than me in the long run.
 
And always remember the scabs of northwest (delta).  Never forget.

None of that matters to Overspeed, he will still keep repeating that everyone from NWA suffered a fate worse than death and we are better off at the bottom of the industry than they are. facts do not matter to Overspeed. 

 

[Bob Owens]

 
So is it a management problem or a union problem in DFW?

Neither, the fact is with more fuel efficient longer range smaller aircraft it simply makes more sense to fly point to point between high density cities instead of connections in the midwest. The heyday of the midwest hub is past. Customers don't want to make connections and some cabins are specifically configured for markets that do not include DFW. So why purposely route aircraft into DFW when its not configured for that market when there are facilities in MIA? The growth in MIA has pretty much cratered staffing in the Northeast. We have plenty of Hangar space between JFK, LGA and BOS but they cant keep those stations staffed. System attrition and expansion in MIA are a steady drain out of the NE. DFW and ORD will likely not see much growth compared to LAX and MIA and may even shrink (after all with an oligopoly why start trouble in a peers home base-UAL-ORD ?) .
 
MIA is in a perfect location for maintenance and has better weather year round than pretty much anywhere else other than southern California. How many times have we seen hail damage to scores of planes in DFW and weather related problems year round, especially bad in the winter, out of ORD? Sure MIA may get a Hurricane every now and then, but there is usually plenty of warning and time to get the planes out of harms way, the weather in the midwest is much more unpredictable. 
 
The company has put itself in an awkward spot, migration is from the coasts to the midwest, due to low wages and the ability to increase living standards by relocating, but most of the revenue is produced on the coasts. With this migration comes a loss of experience and proficiency in the coastal areas which negatively affect AA's operations. 
 
Overspeed is trying to spin things and say that MIA is getting more work because of a cooperative relationship between the Union and management in MIA when the fact is, and always will be, the work goes to where they can line up routing, facilities and manpower. LAX is also slated for growth but much like NY they are having problems staffing the place. 
 
Could be that management is engineering a problem in both ORD and DFW so they can blame what they plan on doing anyway on the Union. 

 

[The Truth Will Set U Free]

Bob what you are saying about why Miami is getting the work is NOT true. 
 
Miami is getting the work because there are a very Large group of People that are in Management Pocket. Some of them are in Union Positions and Some are Crew Chief and the rest are just People that will do ANYTHING for a Dollar. 
 
They send the Work down here because they'd know that no matter what it will get done because the people that I mentioned above will make sure it gets done  because they dont want to lose there own personal deals.
 
The whole reason you gave me about how Local 591 is better, is Bull Crap. How is it better when the people on Local 591 Board is working against each other. Dallas Chicago, and New York is One team and Miami is Another Team. 
 
That is why the Company is playing Miami against the other stations. FACT. Not a damn thing to do with weather. We have always had great weather. We are getting all the work because Union Reps and Crew Chief are Bought and Paid for. FACT.

 

[Overspeed]

Bob,
Wake up. The MIA hangar is packed now. They are getting the 757 BC now. They are gobbling up the work that DFW is not doing because of GP's vendetta with Sangricco. We all know that in DFW. In GP's letter about the FAA he stated that the 777 BC was moved to MIA because DFW raised legitimate safety concerns. Is GP lying or you about why the 777 went to MIA?
 
MIA the perfect location? Have you been in MIA during the summer? The ramp gets closed daily around 12 to 2. Just because people put transfers in to somewhere lese doesn't mean anything. JFK, ORD, and LAX are all hiring and guess what? People put in for the jobs and people will get hired.
 
DFW has over 70 overnighters, still has close to 500 flights even after the rebanking, and has more hangar space to hide aircraft from hail than anywhere else in the system. DFW on paper is the best place to do all the BCs due to our hangar space, access to TUL and TAESL, and lower cost of living than JFK, SFO, LAX, LGA, and ORD. If AA was smart they would fix the problems in DFW whatever they are and move as many BCs to DFW and lose the expensive hangar space in the cities I just mentioned.

 

[Bob Owens]

Bob what you are saying about why Miami is getting the work is NOT true. 
 
Miami is getting the work because there are a very Large group of People that are in Management Pocket. Some of them are in Union Positions and Some are Crew Chief and the rest are just People that will do ANYTHING for a Dollar. 
 
They send the Work down here because they'd know that no matter what it will get done because the people that I mentioned above will make sure it gets done  because they dont want to lose there own personal deals.
 
The whole reason you gave me about how Local 591 is better, is Bull Crap. How is it better when the people on Local 591 Board is working against each other. Dallas Chicago, and New York is One team and Miami is Another Team. 
 
That is why the Company is playing Miami against the other stations. FACT. Not a damn thing to do with weather. We have always had great weather. We are getting all the work because Union Reps and Crew Chief are Bought and Paid for. FACT.

Well you see things your way, cant change that. You believe that the company moves work because of the performance of mechanics at a particular location, i don't. Explain the shutdown of MCI, AFW and decimation of STL. All were  top performers, all were cut. The work is going to MIA because of Routing and available facilities. Believing otherwise is playing into the company's hands. I only see opinions, not facts.