TWU - Fear Based Union Leadership and Intimidation

[WeAAsles]

You really dont know me. I have no problem with change, in fact I push for and advocate it. If the IAM and TWU said they were merging I'd be ok with that. If they said you take M&R and we will take Fleet , I'd be ok with that as well, both options would be NEW to me, but splitting up the class and craft between two unions is unacceptable. There is zero benefit to that. This Alliance is not about us, its about them, its a business decision, not driven by Union idealism but saving positions in the respective unions. Like I said, we already cleaned house, the reason for the Alliance is gone. If it was about Unionism they would not try and split the baby. Like the true mother they would allow us to stay as one than each take half. 
 
C'mon man, you are the one who cited that Gless took part in this, the same guy who testified before Congress to not impose duty time limits on mechanics and to allow mechanics onto the line with ZERO experience. Surely that in itself should make you cautious as to the motives behind this alliance BS. If they want an alliance then form one that leaves the class and crafts unified within one or the other Unions, not split. 
 
So tell us how being divided between two different Unions in a structure that removes all self governance from the members benefits us. 
 
I dont have to taste a turd to know i don't want to eat it, and this deal stinks.

Bob this was the first one of your comments I could fly with tonight. If the leadership of both unions wanted to divvy up the members that's up to them. It could be the case that this is a done deal whether people like it or not (Legally). I have ears but they don't always reach that top office.

You don't have to like it and you should be doing whatever you can to get it to be something you can or maybe would like.

You know why I'm bugging with you so much tonight Bob? I'm really not worried about Fleet. They'll pass it whether they like it or not and will in the morning still have a union to protect them (two maybe) It's you guys that worry me. I have friends in Maintenance and I really do give a rats asss about you guys. I don't want to see you guys play with fire and let your anger make you do something very stupid. Risking your livelihoods on that no union option by not even voting is just really not something I think is very wise.

It is your choice though?????

 

[WeAAsles]

Yes. Given the choice between a train wreck of a UNION like TWU and being an "At Will" employee I would choose "At Will"
 
In fact I made that very choice. When American Airlines shut my shop down in Tulsa, I did not even try to transfer to another station. I did try to go to another title group but that was only going to be until I got done with school (approx. 6 months). I had no intentions of staying long term.
 
I DO live in a Right To Work state, however airline UNIONS are immune to that as far as I know. So why even bring it up?
 
I think you will find if you pulled your pants down in front of a supervisor, UNION or not, you are going to get fired. I know UNION employees tend to think they are immune to getting fired, trust me, they are not.
 
I can honestly say I have more vacation time, more flexibility in hours, better hours (day shift), better days off (weekends), and make more money than I ever did with American Airlines... and it did not take me 9 years of steps to get there. I can even say I feel respected and valued, I never could say that, and never would be able to; working in a UNION where your biggest measure of success is your hire date..............

Once I saw some of your posts I saw that you are anti union IMO. I have no respect for anyone who says they would vote no union and I really don't have any words either.

I may bust the AMFA guys balls but they are still brothers. You want to vote no union I'd prefer then to not even waste my time with you.

 

[Bob Owens]

Bob this was the first one of your comments I could fly with tonight. If the leadership of both unions wanted to divvy up the members that's up to them. It could be the case that this is a done deal whether people like it or not (Legally). I have ears but they don't always reach that top office.

You don't have to like it and you should be doing whatever you can to get it to be something you can or maybe would like.

You know why I'm bugging with you so much tonight Bob? I'm really not worried about Fleet. They'll pass it whether they like it or not and will in the morning still have a union to protect them (two maybe) It's you guys that worry me. I have friends in Maintenance and I really do give a rats asss about you guys. I don't want to see you guys play with fire and let your anger make you do something very stupid. Risking your livelihoods on that no union option by not even voting is just really not something I think is very wise.

It is your choice though?????

Your idea of Unionism appears to be to substitute one boss for another. I believe Unions work for the members.
 
You are still fixated on fear. Risking our livelihoods? Really? So if we don't vote for this crap and they pull the two worst contracts in the industry out from under us all the jobs will disappear, planes wont need maintenance or all of a sudden this phantom source of scab mechanics will appear to take over our jobs?  I don't want to see us lose representation but I refuse to endorse what they are forcing on us. As for my judgement I chose to become an aircraft mechanic, perhaps not the best of choices but how has your choice worked out for you? I'm annoyed because my Union has failed to keep our compensation at least at market rates and in fact has driven them below market rates, you have been kept at market rates but the market has dropped more so than ours. In perspective they have done a pretty good job for you guys, you know my perspective on what your guys need to do in order to adjust the market rate back up, as we have discussed it in the past. Your fears may not be ours. We are at the bottom, we lag UAL by more than you lag SWA. They may be able to round up enough people off the streets of South Queens to do your job, but this isn't 2005, there is no pool of A&P mechanics out there to draw from to do all our jobs. I had this livelihood prior to being hired by AA, I would still have it even if AA disappeared, let alone these lousy contracts so don't bother with the fear tactics of saying we better vote in favor of this crap deal or else, you are starting to sound like Videtich and Little.  I say they should not put it in front of us and must come up with something else, something that does not split up the class and craft. 

 

[La Li Lu Le Lo]

La li--
In another thread, you mentioned not being anti-labor, yet here you are helping capital drive the wedge between public & private sector workers. We're ALL working class. What's the deal?

http://www.nationalaffairs.com/publications/detail/the-trouble-with-public-sector-unions
 
1943, New York Supreme Court judge:
"To tolerate or recognize any combination of civil service employees of the government as a labor organization or union is not only incompatible with the spirit of democracy, but inconsistent with every principle upon which our government is founded. Nothing is more dangerous to public welfare than to admit that hired servants of the State can dictate to the government the hours, the wages and conditions under which they will carry on essential services vital to the welfare, safety, and security of the citizen. To admit as true that government employees have power to halt or check the functions of government unless their demands are satisfied, is to transfer to them all legislative, executive and judicial power. Nothing would be more ridiculous."
 
I think this pretty much summarizes why I do not believe in public sector UNIONS.

 

[Bob Owens]

http://www.nationalaffairs.com/publications/detail/the-trouble-with-public-sector-unions
 
1943, New York Supreme Court judge:
"To tolerate or recognize any combination of civil service employees of the government as a labor organization or union is not only incompatible with the spirit of democracy, but inconsistent with every principle upon which our government is founded. Nothing is more dangerous to public welfare than to admit that hired servants of the State can dictate to the government the hours, the wages and conditions under which they will carry on essential services vital to the welfare, safety, and security of the citizen. To admit as true that government employees have power to halt or check the functions of government unless their demands are satisfied, is to transfer to them all legislative, executive and judicial power. Nothing would be more ridiculous."
 
I think this pretty much summarizes why I do not believe in public sector UNIONS.

Really? Public sector unions exist in Europe and they have more democracy than we do. That statement is ridiculous. 

 

[WeAAsles]

Your idea of Unionism appears to be to substitute one boss for another. I believe Unions work for the members.
 
You are still fixated on fear. Risking our livelihoods? Really? So if we don't vote for this crap and they pull the two worst contracts in the industry out from under us all the jobs will disappear, planes wont need maintenance or all of a sudden this phantom source of scab mechanics will appear to take over our jobs?  I don't want to see us lose representation but I refuse to endorse what they are forcing on us. As for my judgement I chose to become an aircraft mechanic, perhaps not the best of choices but how has your choice worked out for you? I'm annoyed because my Union has failed to keep our compensation at least at market rates and in fact has driven them below market rates, you have been kept at market rates but the market has dropped more so than ours. In perspective they have done a pretty good job for you guys, you know my perspective on what your guys need to do in order to adjust the market rate back up, as we have discussed it in the past. Your fears may not be ours. We are at the bottom, we lag UAL by more than you lag SWA. They may be able to round up enough people off the streets of South Queens to do your job, but this isn't 2005, there is no pool of A&P mechanics out there to draw from to do all our jobs. I had this livelihood prior to being hired by AA, I would still have it even if AA disappeared, let alone these lousy contracts. 

Bob I've seen you debate this issue 100's of times now and you have your own ideology about it. I don't think there is much of a chance of trying to change your mind? It's like you want to play the game of chess a different way then some others do. Maybe you'd win your game but I don't count my life as a game.

But you are 100% right that I am not in the same position as you or your members so my perspective comes from a different place.

And as annoyed as you are at your union I'm even more annoyed at all the crappy winds that put them in the position to give you all those shittty deals in the first place. Don't place all your anger at their feet Bob. That's not fair and you know it.  

 

[La Li Lu Le Lo]

Once I saw some of your posts I saw that you are anti union IMO. I have no respect for anyone who says they would vote no union and I really don't have any words either.

I may bust the AMFA guys balls but they are still brothers. You want to vote no union I'd prefer then to not even waste my time with you.

Don't confuse anti TWU with anti UNION.

 

[La Li Lu Le Lo]

Really? Public sector unions exist in Europe and they have more democracy than we do. That statement is ridiculous. 

Let's just agree to disagree Bob. 
 
I am sure if your house was burning down and the firefighters did not respond because "they were on strike" your tune would change. 
 
I really don't want to argue about this... I already said all I feel I need to say. 
 
If you have specific questions ask, otherwise lets let the matter drop.

 

[WeAAsles]

Don't confuse anti TWU with anti UNION.

"I think this pretty much summarizes why I do not believe in public sector UNIONS."

You're not anti union? WTF are you then?

 

[Bob Owens]

Bob I've seen you debate this issue 100's of times now and you have your own ideology about it. I don't think there is much of a chance of trying to change your mind? It's like you want to play the game of chess a different way then some others do. Maybe you'd win your game but I don't count my life as a game.

But you are 100% right that I am not in the same position as you or your members so my perspective comes from a different place.

And as annoyed as you are at your union I'm even more annoyed at all the crappy winds that put them in the position to give you all those shittty deals in the first place. Don't place all your anger at their feet Bob. That's not fair and you know it.  

Never said it was a game, but being in a Union does not mean eliminating risk, it means improving the odds. 

 

[Bob Owens]

Let's just agree to disagree Bob. 
 
I am sure if your house was burning down and the firefighters did not respond because "they were on strike" your tune would change. 
 
I really don't want to argue about this... I already said all I feel I need to say. 
 
If you have specific questions ask, otherwise lets let the matter drop.

Our firemen are Volunteers.
 
Some people feel the same way if the milk wasn't delivered, or if their flight was cancelled due to a strike. Every one should have the right to organize and with that comes the right to strike. People are never eager to strike, but when an employer will not bargain sometimes that's the only option. in Europe public sector workers can strike like anyone else, we don't see their societies collapsing, in fact they enjoy longer healthier lives than we do. 
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x77mKCnHhYM

 

[La Li Lu Le Lo]

"I think this pretty much summarizes why I do not believe in public sector UNIONS."

You're not anti union? WTF are you then?

I thought I made that pretty clear.
 
I support private sector UNIONS the way they used to be before they got so entrenched in politics.
 
I do not support TWU because they have an abysmal record. They have had too many concessions and too many under the table deals over the years. 
 
I do not support public sector UNIONS in any way.

 

[La Li Lu Le Lo]

Our firemen are Volunteers.
 
Some people feel the same way if the milk wasn't delivered, or if their flight was cancelled due to a strike. Every one should have the right to organize and with that comes the right to strike. People are never eager to strike, but when an employer will not bargain sometimes that's the only option. in Europe public sector workers can strike like anyone else, we don't see their societies collapsing, in fact they enjoy longer healthier lives than we do. 

Oh please Bob, give it a rest.
 
You speak of an employer that will not bargain......... who employs government employees? 
 
Actually you do see European societies collapsing......  Perhaps you have heard of the European Debt Crisis. Join us in Realityville Bob.

 

[swamt]

What I'm saying is I do not believe the TWU or IAM have the right to limit us to that.
 
Both have CBAs in place they are obliged to enforce whether we go along with their abomination or not. 
 
I will not vote for this Association-Period.
 
I want a Union, not a deal between two that splits us as spoils to their benefit and not ours. Unions are supposed to work for us, such a ballott says that if we don't agree with what they came up with, with zero input from us, that they will try and threaten to punish us by having our CBA abrogated. It would be no different than them saying that if we didnt approve of a TA that they would quit and leave us with no contract. 
 
Didnt the TWU mount a campaign to discredit AMFA because it was called an Association? In reality it was a Union that went by the title Association, but what they want us to do is to really agree to an Association not between workers, but between two Unions that strips the members of democracy and accountability. It locks Stores and Title II out of negotiations completely and forces us to split up line maintenance in a completely jumbled manner. This deal is completely unacceptable. 
 
If they force this down our throats don't be surprised if we end up with No union, after all neither of them has done a very good job for mechanics.  I will not vote in favor of the Association.  One needs to step up and the other needs to step back, or battle it out, but  I will not support a deal that was crafted by two cowardly organizations who just wanted to do whats best for their Treasuries and not whats best for their members. 

Well said Bob.  Hope all the members get the same clue...

 

[swamt]

And BTW, The TWU and the IAM as well as WT is putting on the scare tactics.  And if you all have not noticed, they have have greatly increased as of lately. Wonder why that is?  Well I can tell you, because the alliance, is scared to death of the final outcome, period.  Good luck in the upcoming vote guys...