Hey pal, unsure what your point is on this one. The outcome should have been no surprise since the 7K+ Unionized workforce was out numbered by 10K+ non-Union workforce. The willingness of the company to buy employee satisfaction just to the degree to keep Unions out has been a successful strategy, no doubt. Unfortunately, what I believe many don't take in consideration is just how much is Delta willing to invest to retain this success. For example, if the company is willing to go as high as increasing an employee's pay by $3/hr but their initial offer of $1/hr is jumped at by the employees, that's $2/hr per employee of profits that have a better chance of ending up in management bonuses than paying for baby's new shoes. A quality representation would have that in their sights for their members.WeAAsles said:
TWU - Fear Based Union Leadership and Intimidation
- Thread starter TWU informer
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WeAAsles
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I'll tell you what I'm getting at there buddy. I'm giving the info to people who have some crazy notion in their heads that they can vote out a union (Any Union) and still get to keep the benefits that come along with it.JABORD said:
If you vote no union then no soup or CBA for you.
WeAAsles said:
So now I call Bullcrap on you also, Weaasle. I questioned where you were going with this on the other thread and knowing some of you past agendas here to blow smoke, I now see your just contributing to the BS campaign to confuse folks. Do you not agree that the Alliance will most likely require a SEPARATE vote by us before the Unions go to the NMB? If the TWBoo/IAM were to require a 'no union' choice on this INTERNAL vote, we most certainly need to tar and feather all who would perpetuate such nonsense. Take the time to read my other post:JABORD said:
http://www.airlineforums.com/topic/57420-twu-fear-based-union-leadership-and-intimidation/?p=1106140
WeAAsles
Can you show me an example of where a Union under the RLA can simply walk away from a CBA and the membership because they rejected a proposal of theirs to leave the Union for an association of their choosing? Wasn't AMFA forced to continue to represent the scabs at NWA till the Union was de-certified through the merger with DAL ?
Seems to me that the Union has a fiduciary duty and a duty of fair representation to the membership. They have millions of membership dollars and contracts in place. Telling them they have to vote in favor of joining an association or be de-certified reeks of coercion. Does a Union have the right to tell its members they must allow a union to dispose of a contract or risk abrogation of that agreement? I doubt it.
Seems to me that once the TWU signed that agreement they are bound to enforce it until the members release them. I doubt they can walk away just because we didnt approve of a plan they concocted as it would be a violation of their duty to represent. That would be no different than a Union saying to its members if don't vote YES for a contract with the carrier that they would quit and leave us with no union and no contract.
I dont care how its spun or what you use to try and coerce the members into accepting this BS Alliance-I AM A NO. If they try and threaten decertification then expect a lawsuit.
Can you show me an example of where a Union under the RLA can simply walk away from a CBA and the membership because they rejected a proposal of theirs to leave the Union for an association of their choosing? Wasn't AMFA forced to continue to represent the scabs at NWA till the Union was de-certified through the merger with DAL ?
Seems to me that the Union has a fiduciary duty and a duty of fair representation to the membership. They have millions of membership dollars and contracts in place. Telling them they have to vote in favor of joining an association or be de-certified reeks of coercion. Does a Union have the right to tell its members they must allow a union to dispose of a contract or risk abrogation of that agreement? I doubt it.
Seems to me that once the TWU signed that agreement they are bound to enforce it until the members release them. I doubt they can walk away just because we didnt approve of a plan they concocted as it would be a violation of their duty to represent. That would be no different than a Union saying to its members if don't vote YES for a contract with the carrier that they would quit and leave us with no union and no contract.
I dont care how its spun or what you use to try and coerce the members into accepting this BS Alliance-I AM A NO. If they try and threaten decertification then expect a lawsuit.
WeAAsles
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What in the freakin world are you talking about sometimes???? I swear Bob I really have NO clue lately?Bob Owens said:
I said if you have NO UNION. VOTE OUT or whatever. NO UNION.
If they vote in AMFA or whoever the hell they want YES YES YES. That Union and the company have to abide by the former CBA.
Vote for whoever the hell you want to vote for but if you vote NO UNION then I'll call you a moron like anyone else period.
WeAAsles
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So is SOMEBODY going to tell me what the hell you people are talking about because I feel like I stepped into "One Flew Over The Cuckoo's Nest" territory now?
Bob Owens if you receive a ballot in the future and the only TWO choices on that ballot are
TWU/IAM Association OR
No Union
How will you vote?
Bob Owens if you receive a ballot in the future and the only TWO choices on that ballot are
TWU/IAM Association OR
No Union
How will you vote?
What I'm saying is I do not believe the TWU or IAM have the right to limit us to that.WeAAsles said:
Both have CBAs in place they are obliged to enforce whether we go along with their abomination or not.
I will not vote for this Association-Period.
I want a Union, not a deal between two that splits us as spoils to their benefit and not ours. Unions are supposed to work for us, such a ballott says that if we don't agree with what they came up with, with zero input from us, that they will try and threaten to punish us by having our CBA abrogated. It would be no different than them saying that if we didnt approve of a TA that they would quit and leave us with no contract.
Didnt the TWU mount a campaign to discredit AMFA because it was called an Association? In reality it was a Union that went by the title Association, but what they want us to do is to really agree to an Association not between workers, but between two Unions that strips the members of democracy and accountability. It locks Stores and Title II out of negotiations completely and forces us to split up line maintenance in a completely jumbled manner. This deal is completely unacceptable.
If they force this down our throats don't be surprised if we end up with No union, after all neither of them has done a very good job for mechanics. I will not vote in favor of the Association. One needs to step up and the other needs to step back, or battle it out, but I will not support a deal that was crafted by two cowardly organizations who just wanted to do whats best for their Treasuries and not whats best for their members.
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Obviously they have the right to form an Association. If you believe they don't, then file a suit and if you're correct the NMB will back your beliefs.Bob Owens said:
On the other hand, there is an existing Association within the the current US Airways union groups. It is also something quite common within the railroads, so I guess your beliefs are not backed by facts.
And your are correct, we each have CBA's which have to be enforced separately. However, once, and only, after a Joint CBA is negotiated does the Association actually take over as the representative agent.
I do not remember seeing any video or flyers against AMFA because they were an Association. That's pretty original on your part. Kudos.
if we end up No Union, it would probably give AMFA their best chance over the last 10 years to organize. It would also given them a clean slate in order to negotiate an industry leading contract from scratch. That should be very exciting and I can't wait to see that Vote No Campaign begin.
I think I've been clear, I will not vote in favor of the Association, they need to offer us a Union, not split up Title groups between two Unions.WeAAsles said:
What happens if the majority doesn't vote for either? Are you leaving out important facts? Deception through omission?
Didn't the pilots at US remain in separate contracts in separate Unions under US until they opted for the APA? Why couldnt we?
For me the risk of not having a Union is far greater than most as I would no doubt have a huge target on my back by management. For most of my peers though the No Union option may get them more than this BS Association. They may actually financially do better for the same reason that Delta workers earn a lot more than we do, get more sick time and have more Vacation than we do-to keep the Unions out. Yes I have worked Non-Union, I prefer Union. But I can say that even with the Non-union jobs I got more Holidays and if I did work it was never for half pay. We have Unions, they are offering us an Association, not a single voice for our class and craft, its not a union, its the spawn of business Unionism, it is not about whats best for the members, its about what is best for them. Listen to yourself, you are rationalizing accepting this in the same way people rationalize accepting concessions from the company.Your support is driven by fear. You admit you don't want it but will accept it because they are saying take it or risk having no union. Do you really want to pay someone to treat you the same way the company treats you-"Do as I say, for my benefit not yours, or you wont like what comes next"? You are supporting this out of fear, not conviction. Arent Unions supposed to empower people and help them combat being ruled by fear?
As it is now we can expect that this "association" will take at least a year to figure out what they want from the two worst deals in the industry. The IAMs complete failure to even get UAL pay rates from a company that just posted $1.5 billion in profits for one quarter means that management will be more than willing to sit on these deals and kick the can down the road till 2017 when real negotiations begin. Their inferior contract will have us all dead last in the industry even after the mid term wage adjustment. If the guys vote No Union they will likely face a year of hell, guys such as myself would probably be terminated, but after that year they would likely bring everything up to Delta rates to prevent another Union from coming back. So for those who were never activists more than likely they would do about as well as Delta, or in a year have a new union with something to prove and section 6 negotiations in place.
Lose everything? This contract already left most people at the whim of management. No system protection, in reality they can outsource more than they want, we get half pay for five holidays while their non-union workers get double time for eight, for the first 25 years they get a weeks more Vacation per year than we do. Our compensation and conditions are below non-union. We lost everything that made this a good job.
"Take it or leave it'? isnt that pretty much identical to what you are saying the TWU and IAM have put before us?
Show me any documentation, any case history that says a Union can decertify itself because the members chose not to agree to their plan to move them to an association.
This association is their choice, not ours, they can back out if they want. Let the IAM sue if they don't like it. If they force us into this they deserve to lose us. I will not vote in favor of the Association.
So the answer is if they force this vote upon us, I will likely throw the ballott in the garbage in order to maintain the status quo. They need to come up with something else.
