TWU - Fear Based Union Leadership and Intimidation

[JABORD]

The union loss means that 7,200 former Northwest flight attendants, including 1,900 based in Minnesota, will no longer be represented by the Association of Flight Attendants (AFA) in the merged airline. Their union contract ends, and their pay and benefits will be shifted to the Delta nonunion package.

http://www.marthastewardess.com/delta-flight-attendants-vote-no-to-union-representation/

Hey pal, unsure what your point is on this one. The outcome should have been no surprise since the 7K+ Unionized workforce was out numbered by 10K+ non-Union workforce. The willingness of the company to buy employee satisfaction just to the degree to keep Unions out has been a successful strategy, no doubt. Unfortunately, what I believe many don't take in consideration is just how much is Delta willing to invest to retain this success. For example, if the company is willing to go as high as increasing an employee's pay by $3/hr but their initial offer of $1/hr is jumped at by the employees, that's $2/hr per employee of profits that have a better chance of ending up in management bonuses than paying for baby's new shoes. A quality representation would have that in their sights for their members.

 

[WeAAsles]

Hey pal, unsure what your point is on this one. The outcome should have been no surprise since the 7K+ Unionized workforce was out numbered by 10K+ non-Union workforce. The willingness of the company to buy employee satisfaction just to the degree to keep Unions out has been a successful strategy, no doubt. Unfortunately, what I believe many don't take in consideration is just how much is Delta willing to invest to retain this success. For example, if the company is willing to go as high as increasing an employee's pay by $3/hr but their initial offer of $1/hr is jumped at by the employees, that's $2/hr per employee of profits that have a better chance of ending up in management bonuses than paying for baby's new shoes. A quality representation would have that in their sights for their members.

I'll tell you what I'm getting at there buddy. I'm giving the info to people who have some crazy notion in their heads that they can vote out a union (Any Union) and still get to keep the benefits that come along with it.

If you vote no union then no soup or CBA for you.

 

[JABORD]

If the alliance files for SCS and no other organizations get their names on the ballot there will be only two voting choices.

TWU/IAM Association
No Union

Period.

 
 

I don't disagree. Yes, in the vote we would take for who we want for our representation, a vote run by the NMB of which I believe AMFA will prevail, there will be the choice to vote 'no union'. Only takers for that choice would be folks with their heads in the sand and I believe that is a minority. The topic we are discussing is what at this stage would be an INTERNAL separate vote by us to approve or disapprove the Alliance between TWU/IAM. This is the vote that the TWU, and it sounds like you included are trying to perpetuate that we could end up with no Union, no contract. I am calling bullcrap on that.....putz

So now I call Bullcrap on you also, Weaasle. I questioned where you were going with this on the other thread and knowing some of you past agendas here to blow smoke, I now see your just contributing to the BS campaign to confuse folks. Do you not agree that the Alliance will most likely require a SEPARATE vote by us before the Unions go to the NMB? If the TWBoo/IAM were to require a 'no union' choice on this INTERNAL vote, we most certainly need to tar and feather all who would perpetuate such nonsense. Take the time to read my other post:
http://www.airlineforums.com/topic/57420-twu-fear-based-union-leadership-and-intimidation/?p=1106140

 

[Bob Owens]

WeAAsles
 
Can you show me an example of where a Union under the RLA can simply walk away from a CBA and the membership because they rejected a proposal of theirs to leave the Union for an association of their choosing? Wasn't AMFA forced to continue to represent the scabs at NWA till the Union was de-certified through the merger with DAL ?
 
Seems to me that the Union has a fiduciary duty and a duty of fair representation to the membership. They have millions of membership dollars and contracts in place. Telling them they have to vote in favor of joining an association or be de-certified reeks of coercion. Does a Union have the right to tell its members they must allow a union to dispose of a contract or risk abrogation of that agreement? I doubt it.
 
Seems to me that once the TWU signed that agreement they are bound to enforce it until the members release them. I doubt they can walk away just because we didnt approve of a plan they concocted as it would be a violation of their duty to represent. That would be no different than a Union saying to its members if don't vote YES for a contract with the carrier that they would quit and leave us with no union and no contract. 
 
I dont care how its spun or what you use to try and coerce the members into accepting this BS Alliance-I AM A NO. If they try and threaten decertification then expect a lawsuit. 

 

[WeAAsles]

WeAAsles
 
Can you show me an example of where a Union under the RLA can simply walk away from a CBA and the membership because they rejected a proposal of theirs to leave the Union for an association of their choosing? Wasn't AMFA forced to continue to represent the scabs at NWA till the Union was de-certified through the merger with DAL ?
 
Seems to me that the Union has a fiduciary duty and a duty of fair representation to the membership. They have millions of membership dollars and contracts in place. Telling them they have to vote in favor of joining an association or be de-certified reeks of coercion. Does a Union have the right to tell its members they must allow a union to dispose of a contract or risk abrogation of that agreement? I doubt it.
 
Seems to me that once the TWU signed that agreement they are bound to enforce it until the members release them. I doubt they can walk away just because we didnt approve of a plan they concocted as it would be a violation of their duty to represent. That would be no different than a Union saying to its members if don't vote YES for a contract with the carrier that they would quit and leave us with no union and no contract. 
 
I dont care how its spun or what you use to try and coerce the members into accepting this BS Alliance-I AM A NO. If they try and threaten decertification then expect a lawsuit. 

What in the freakin world are you talking about sometimes???? I swear Bob I really have NO clue lately?

I said if you have NO UNION. VOTE OUT or whatever. NO UNION.

If they vote in AMFA or whoever the hell they want YES YES YES. That Union and the company have to abide by the former CBA.

Vote for whoever the hell you want to vote for but if you vote NO UNION then I'll call you a moron like anyone else period.

 

[WeAAsles]

So is SOMEBODY going to tell me what the hell you people are talking about because I feel like I stepped into "One Flew Over The Cuckoo's Nest" territory now?

Bob Owens if you receive a ballot in the future and the only TWO choices on that ballot are

TWU/IAM Association    OR
No Union

How will you vote?

 

 

[skinvalve]

Now this is drama at it's best. Can't wait for the HBO mini series UNION MAD MEN or BREAKING BAD UNION or UNION DEADWOOD or ???

 

[iluvaa]

If a union cared about the labor movement or there members they wouldn't put them in this position. But we know they only care about dues period.

 

[WeAAsles]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1HvmtbZzA40

 

[Bob Owens]

So is SOMEBODY going to tell me what the hell you people are talking about because I feel like I stepped into "One Flew Over The Cuckoo's Nest" territory now?

Bob Owens if you receive a ballot in the future and the only TWO choices on that ballot are

TWU/IAM Association    OR
No Union

How will you vote?

 

What I'm saying is I do not believe the TWU or IAM have the right to limit us to that.
 
Both have CBAs in place they are obliged to enforce whether we go along with their abomination or not. 
 
I will not vote for this Association-Period.
 
I want a Union, not a deal between two that splits us as spoils to their benefit and not ours. Unions are supposed to work for us, such a ballott says that if we don't agree with what they came up with, with zero input from us, that they will try and threaten to punish us by having our CBA abrogated. It would be no different than them saying that if we didnt approve of a TA that they would quit and leave us with no contract. 
 
Didnt the TWU mount a campaign to discredit AMFA because it was called an Association? In reality it was a Union that went by the title Association, but what they want us to do is to really agree to an Association not between workers, but between two Unions that strips the members of democracy and accountability. It locks Stores and Title II out of negotiations completely and forces us to split up line maintenance in a completely jumbled manner. This deal is completely unacceptable. 
 
If they force this down our throats don't be surprised if we end up with No union, after all neither of them has done a very good job for mechanics.  I will not vote in favor of the Association.  One needs to step up and the other needs to step back, or battle it out, but  I will not support a deal that was crafted by two cowardly organizations who just wanted to do whats best for their Treasuries and not whats best for their members. 

 

[WeAAsles]

What I'm saying is I do not believe the TWU or IAM have the right to limit us to that.

I don't like that they didn't give us a choice to support the idea of an Association either but after hearing the reaction from so many now it's left me thinking. Some people just like to fight for the sake of fighting it seems.
 
Both have CBAs in place they are obliged to enforce whether we go along with their abomination or not. 

If we get a vote and the members pass "No Union" NO we no longer have CBA's to enforce.
 
I will not vote for this Association-Period.

So again if your only TWO options are association or no union are you saying that you'll abstain then? You do understand that abstaining may grant that one no union vote needed?
 
I want a Union, not a deal between two that splits us as spoils to their benefit and not ours. Unions are supposed to work for us, such a ballott says that if we don't agree with what they came up with, with zero input from us, that they will try and threaten to punish us by having our CBA abrogated. It would be no different than them saying that if we didnt approve of a TA that they would quit and leave us with no contract. 

They will not punish you by having your contract abrogated. If you vote for or assist the No Union option to pass you will no longer have a contract and be at the will of AA management. Bring a box to your office, clean out your personal belongings, lock the door as you leave and give management back their key. That's reality Bob and you know it.
 
Didnt the TWU mount a campaign to discredit AMFA because it was called an Association? In reality it was a Union that went by the title Association, but what they want us to do is to really agree to an Association not between workers, but between two Unions that strips the members of democracy and accountability.

Yes it does doesn't it. But you go ahead and flirt with that no union option if you want? Maybe you don't know what it's like to work for a large corporation without a Union behind you? I do. Let me tell you something. I'll be damned if I'm going back to that. Go ahead Bob, make your stand and risk losing everything. I'm sure you've never been a thorn in managements side right? Maybe they'll do a Witcher on you and force you into management or the street? Take it or leave it.

It locks Stores and Title II out of negotiations completely and forces us to split up line maintenance in a completely jumbled manner. This deal is completely unacceptable. 
 
If they force this down our throats don't be surprised if we end up with No union, after all neither of them has done a very good job for mechanics.  I will not vote in favor of the Association.  One needs to step up and the other needs to step back, or battle it out, but  I will not support a deal that was crafted by two cowardly organizations who just wanted to do whats best for their Treasuries and not whats best for their members. 

Alright Mr Smith again you make your stand. You have plenty of followers and maybe you can get them to go along with your grand idea? You may have hit a few nails on the head with your last sentence but you make your point. I'm sure your point is far more important than leaving all those people up to the whim of management. Sure. I'm not going down as the grand martyr for the cause though. Maybe they'll put YOUR name in some history book though?

 

[NYer]

What I'm saying is I do not believe the TWU or IAM have the right to limit us to that.
 
Both have CBAs in place they are obliged to enforce whether we go along with their abomination or not. 
 
I will not vote for this Association-Period.
 
I want a Union, not a deal between two that splits us as spoils to their benefit and not ours. Unions are supposed to work for us, such a ballott says that if we don't agree with what they came up with, with zero input from us, that they will try and threaten to punish us by having our CBA abrogated. It would be no different than them saying that if we didnt approve of a TA that they would quit and leave us with no contract. 
 
Didnt the TWU mount a campaign to discredit AMFA because it was called an Association? In reality it was a Union that went by the title Association, but what they want us to do is to really agree to an Association not between workers, but between two Unions that strips the members of democracy and accountability. It locks Stores and Title II out of negotiations completely and forces us to split up line maintenance in a completely jumbled manner. This deal is completely unacceptable. 
 
If they force this down our throats don't be surprised if we end up with No union, after all neither of them has done a very good job for mechanics.  I will not vote in favor of the Association.  One needs to step up and the other needs to step back, or battle it out, but  I will not support a deal that was crafted by two cowardly organizations who just wanted to do whats best for their Treasuries and not whats best for their members.

Obviously they have the right to form an Association. If you believe they don't, then file a suit and if you're correct the NMB will back your beliefs.

On the other hand, there is an existing Association within the the current US Airways union groups. It is also something quite common within the railroads, so I guess your beliefs are not backed by facts.

And your are correct, we each have CBA's which have to be enforced separately. However, once, and only, after a Joint CBA is negotiated does the Association actually take over as the representative agent.

I do not remember seeing any video or flyers against AMFA because they were an Association. That's pretty original on your part. Kudos.

if we end up No Union, it would probably give AMFA their best chance over the last 10 years to organize. It would also given them a clean slate in order to negotiate an industry leading contract from scratch. That should be very exciting and I can't wait to see that Vote No Campaign begin.

 

[Bob Owens]

 

What I'm saying is I do not believe the TWU or IAM have the right to limit us to that.

I don't like that they didn't give us a choice to support the idea of an Association either but after hearing the reaction from so many now it's left me thinking. Some people just like to fight for the sake of fighting it seems.
 
Both have CBAs in place they are obliged to enforce whether we go along with their abomination or not. 

If we get a vote and the members pass "No Union" NO we no longer have CBA's to enforce.
 
I will not vote for this Association-Period.

So again if your only TWO options are association or no union are you saying that you'll abstain then? You do understand that abstaining may grant that one no union vote needed?
 
I want a Union, not a deal between two that splits us as spoils to their benefit and not ours. Unions are supposed to work for us, such a ballott says that if we don't agree with what they came up with, with zero input from us, that they will try and threaten to punish us by having our CBA abrogated. It would be no different than them saying that if we didnt approve of a TA that they would quit and leave us with no contract. 

They will not punish you by having your contract abrogated. If you vote for or assist the No Union option to pass you will no longer have a contract and be at the will of AA management. Bring a box to your office, clean out your personal belongings, lock the door as you leave and give management back their key. That's reality Bob and you know it.
 
Didnt the TWU mount a campaign to discredit AMFA because it was called an Association? In reality it was a Union that went by the title Association, but what they want us to do is to really agree to an Association not between workers, but between two Unions that strips the members of democracy and accountability.

Yes it does doesn't it. But you go ahead and flirt with that no union option if you want? Maybe you don't know what it's like to work for a large corporation without a Union behind you? I do. Let me tell you something. I'll be damned if I'm going back to that. Go ahead Bob, make your stand and risk losing everything. I'm sure you've never been a thorn in managements side right? Maybe they'll do a Witcher on you and force you into management or the street? Take it or leave it.

It locks Stores and Title II out of negotiations completely and forces us to split up line maintenance in a completely jumbled manner. This deal is completely unacceptable. 
 
If they force this down our throats don't be surprised if we end up with No union, after all neither of them has done a very good job for mechanics.  I will not vote in favor of the Association.  One needs to step up and the other needs to step back, or battle it out, but  I will not support a deal that was crafted by two cowardly organizations who just wanted to do whats best for their Treasuries and not whats best for their members. 

Alright Mr Smith again you make your stand. You have plenty of followers and maybe you can get them to go along with your grand idea? You may have hit a few nails on the head with your last sentence but you make your point. I'm sure your point is far more important than leaving all those people up to the whim of management. Sure. I'm not going down as the grand martyr for the cause though. Maybe they'll put YOUR name in some history book though?

 

I think I've been clear, I will not vote in favor of the Association, they need to offer us a Union, not split up Title groups between two Unions.
 
What happens if the majority doesn't vote for either? Are you leaving out important facts? Deception through omission? 
 
Didn't the pilots at US remain in separate contracts in separate Unions under US until they opted for the APA? Why couldnt we? 
 
 For me the risk of not having a Union is far greater than most as I would no doubt have a huge target on my back by management. For most of my peers though the No Union option may get them more than this BS Association. They may actually financially do better for the same reason that Delta workers earn a lot more than we do, get more sick time and have more Vacation than we do-to keep the Unions out. Yes I have worked Non-Union, I prefer Union. But I can say that even with the Non-union jobs I got more Holidays and if I did work it was never for half pay. We have Unions, they are offering us an Association, not a single voice for our class and craft, its not a union, its the spawn of business Unionism, it is not about whats best for the members, its about what is best for them. Listen to yourself, you are rationalizing accepting this in the same way people rationalize accepting concessions from the company.Your support is driven by fear.  You admit you don't want it but will accept it because they are saying take it or risk having no union. Do you really want to pay someone to treat you the same way the company treats you-"Do as I say, for my benefit not yours, or you wont like what comes next"?  You are supporting this out of fear, not conviction. Arent Unions supposed to empower people and help them combat being ruled by fear?
 
As it is now we can expect that this "association" will take at least a year to figure out what they want from the two worst deals in the industry. The IAMs complete failure to even get UAL pay rates from a company that just posted $1.5 billion in profits for one quarter means that management will be more than willing to sit on these deals and kick the can down the road till 2017 when real negotiations begin. Their inferior contract will have us all dead last in the industry even after the mid term wage adjustment.  If the guys vote No Union they will likely face a year of hell, guys such as myself would probably be terminated, but after that year they would likely bring everything up to Delta rates to prevent another Union from coming back. So for those who were never activists more than likely they would do about as well as Delta, or in a year have a new union with something to prove and section 6 negotiations in place. 
 
Lose everything? This contract already left most people at the whim of management. No system protection, in reality they can outsource more than they want, we get half pay for five holidays while their non-union workers get double time for eight, for the first 25 years they get a weeks more Vacation per year than we do. Our compensation and conditions are below non-union. We lost everything that made this a good job. 
 
"Take it or leave it'? isnt that pretty much identical to what you are saying the TWU and IAM have put before us?
 
Show me any documentation, any case history that says a Union can decertify itself because the members chose not to agree to their plan to move them to an association. 
 
This association is their choice, not ours, they can back out if they want. Let the IAM sue if they don't like it. If they force us into this they deserve to lose us. I will not vote in favor of the Association. 
 
So the answer is if they force this vote upon us, I will likely throw the ballott in the garbage in order to maintain the status quo. They need to come up with something else. 

 

[700UW]

No the East and West pilots are all USAPA, the East majority would never reach a JCBA with the company to keep the Nicalou Award from being implentmented, your comparing apples to oranges.

 

[Bob Owens]

No the East and West pilots are all USAPA, the East majority would never reach a JCBA with the company to keep the Nicalou Award from being implentmented, your comparing apples to oranges.

Bottom line, two contracts remained in place since the merger with America West.