TWU - Fear Based Union Leadership and Intimidation

[NYer]

Bottom line, two contracts remained in place since the merger with America West.

You really hate to give all the information don't you. Tell everyone why they remained separate because the reason that happened is not a precursor of any options for the current situation. Tell the whole story Owens....the whole story.

 

[Bob Owens]

You really hate to give all the information don't you. Tell everyone why they remained separate because the reason that happened is not a precursor of any options for the current situation. Tell the whole story Owens....the whole story.

If I did then you would complain that I wrote too much.
 
The relevant fact is they remained under separate contracts. Nothing is forcing us into an association of two unions. 

 

[WeAAsles]

I think I've been clear, I will not vote in favor of the Association, they need to offer us a Union, not split up Title groups between two Unions.
 
What happens if the majority doesn't vote for either? Are you leaving out important facts? Deception through omission? 


What are you talking about? How can there not be a majority unless 6487 vote for the association and 6487 vote no union. Do you think it's going to be a tie?
 
 
Didn't the pilots at US remain in separate contracts in separate Unions under US until they opted for the APA? Why couldnt we? 

Because your leaders and the leaders of the IAM opted to have an association rather than fighting with each other over members. Some of which may have proffered not to. Speaking on the IAM side of those members maybe they don't want there pension frozen if it went to the TWU? Ever think about that side of things Bob? Maybe some people are smartening up and realizing that unions need to stop fighting each other and get on the same page? 
 
 For me the risk of not having a Union is far greater than most as I would no doubt have a huge target on my back by management. For most of my peers though the No Union option may get them more than this BS Association. They may actually financially do better for the same reason that Delta workers earn a lot more than we do, get more sick time and have more Vacation than we do-to keep the Unions out.

Nice to see a strong union man such as yourself touting up the benefits of being non union. What the hell happened to you?

Yes I have worked Non-Union, I prefer Union. But I can say that even with the Non-union jobs I got more Holidays and if I did work it was never for half pay. We have Unions, they are offering us an Association, not a single voice for our class and craft, its not a union, its the spawn of business Unionism, it is not about whats best for the members, its about what is best for them.

Listen to yourself, you are rationalizing accepting this in the same way people rationalize accepting concessions from the company.Your support is driven by fear.  You admit you don't want it but will accept it because they are saying take it or risk having no union. Do you really want to pay someone to treat you the same way the company treats you-"Do as I say, for my benefit not yours, or you wont like what comes next"?  You are supporting this out of fear, not conviction. Arent Unions supposed to empower people and help them combat being ruled by fear?

No Bob you DO NOT know me at all! I never said that I didn't want this, those are words you're putting in my mouth. I said that I thought originally we should have voted on this. As far as supporting it I do now. But that came from LEARNING. I started to make contacts within the IAM right after the association was announced. I opened my mind to the possibilities. Something maybe you should try? I started to be educated on their structure, make friends, ask tons of questions and still do.

I'm not supporting this out of fear. I'm supporting this because I have a brain in my head. I 100% believe that together we will be a lot stronger than standing apart from our Union counterparts. The IAM is NOT my enemy Bob. Do you have any clue who your real enemies are?
 
As it is now we can expect that this "association" will take at least a year to figure out what they want from the two worst deals in the industry. The IAMs complete failure to even get UAL pay rates from a company that just posted $1.5 billion in profits for one quarter means that management will be more than willing to sit on these deals and kick the can down the road till 2017 when real negotiations begin. If the guys vote No Union they will likely face a year of hell, guys such as myself would probably be terminated, but after that year they would likely bring everything up to Delta rates to prevent another Union from coming back. So for those who were never activists more than likely they would do about as well as Delta, or in a year have a new union with something to prove and section 6 negotiations in place. 

No problem there Bob. Go ahead and offer yourself up on a sword as a martyr for the cause to not be represented. Ridiculous. And maybe you want to offer yourself as a sacrificial lamb but why don't you take a poll among your members and see how many of them feel the same? Yea I'm quite sure they'll be honest with you.
 
Lose everything? This contract already left most people at the whim of management. No system protection, in reality they can outsource more than they want, we get half pay for five holidays while their non-union get double time for eight, for the first 25 years they get a weeks more Vacation per year than we do. Our compensation and conditions are below non-union. we lost everything that made this a good job. 
 
"Take it or leave it'? isnt that pretty much identical to what you are saying the TWU and IAM have put before us?
 
Show me any documentation, any case history that says a Union can decertify itself because the members chose not to agree to their plan to move them to an association. 

Bob if there are only two choices on the ballot and the no union option is the one chosen you will no longer have a union or a CBA. Why is this so incredibly difficult to understand? If you vote it down they can not, shall not and will not threaten you with desertification because the members already threw them out. 

Show me the documentation where either union is threatening to decertify if you say I will not accept this before you even vote?
 
This association is their choice, not ours, they can back out if they want. Let the IAM sue if they don't like it. If they force us into this they deserve to lose us. I will not vote in favor of the Association. 

That's not up to you whether anyone tries to back out or not. That's way above your pay grade. And I love that idea, sue. Yea let's keep the wonderful union to union fighting going while Corporate America and their pocket Politicians keep kicking our asses. That's thinking with the old noodle.
 
So the answer is if they force this vote upon us, I will likely throw the ballott in the garbage in order to maintain the status quo. 

Do what you want to do. No one is forcing your hand to that paper brother. I used to think you had an open mind. I guess I was wrong.

By the way. I swear this is a true story. I went to the supermarket a little while ago and the cashier was telling the bag boy how she was training her replacement and they're letting her go because she's paid too much.

It just made me think how ironic it is that here we are arguing because we have TWO Unions who want to represent us while this woman get's the boot.

You really can't make this shite up.

 

[Bob Owens]

By the way. I swear this is a true story. I went to the supermarket a little while ago and the cashier was telling the bag boy how she was training her replacement and they're letting her go because she's paid too much.

It just made me think how ironic it is that here we are arguing because we have TWO Unions who want to represent us while this woman get's the boot.

You really can't make this shite up.

We have two unions that want our dues, and they are saying to us unless we let them share our dues between them they do not want to represent us and they do not want us to have any contract. 
 
"One Union One voice", remember that? Whats the new slogan going to be, "Two Unions, blame the other one"? 

 

[WeAAsles]

We have two unions that want our dues, and they are saying to us unless we let them share our dues between them they do not want to represent us and they do not want us to have any contract. 

No Bob. I know this sounds too simple to be believed because everyone seems to be looking for the angle. But maybe they really decided that it just wasn't smart to fight it out? What if they did have an association vote and the members said no. Ok I guess we need to fight then right?
 
"One Union One voice", remember that? Whats the new slogan going to be, "Two Unions, blame the other one"? 

How about a new slogan. "Two Unions, One Bigger voice" How about that?

Bob let me ask you a question. Have you even talked to any people from the IAM recently? Yea I know all about the past issues. Maybe it's time to let them rest?

 

[NYer]

Wow Bob. The only relevant fact in that situation is that they remained with separate contracts so in your world that means we should do the same?

Well, the fact is that the seniority integration arbitration award was something the US Airways pilots were not in agreement with (the Nicolau Award). In order to get away from the award the US Airways pilots decertified their union (ALPA) and replaced it with the USAPA. That prompted the America West pilots to take their case to court, where it has been for the past several years. As a matter of fact, that case is now part of the AMR BK case under an Adversarial Proceeding (Leonidas)

To infer, as you tried, that having separate unions is a choice readily available to the parties is pretty disingenuous. Of course, giving the full story on this issue makes it more difficult to confuse the matter as you try to do with your rhetoric. To bad you can't make your points by using examples which are complete, instead of just using convenient tid bits.

 

[OldGuy@AA]

Bob let me ask you a question. Have you even talked to any people from the IAM recently? Yea I know all about the past issues. Maybe it's time to let them rest?

The point is that we should decide who or what represents us, not the TWU and IAM.  We, the members of the unions, should decide on this alliance.  The internationals should not decide for us.  We are basically being given the choice between an alliance that the majority do not want or no union.  What Bob is saying is true.  

 

[NYer]

We have two unions that want our dues, and they are saying to us unless we let them share our dues between them they do not want to represent us and they do not want us to have any contract. 
 
"One Union One voice", remember that? Whats the new slogan going to be, "Two Unions, blame the other one"?

There have been other choices, but the Teamsters and AMFA have been unable to get any traction to make a change. That seems to indicate that the majority doesn't necessarily want those choices. However, if you can muster the ability to get another choice put on the ballot with the Association all you need to do is get cards signed by 50%, plus 1 of the combined Memberships. That shouldn't be too hard if everyone wants another option. Get ir done.

 

[NYer]

The point is that we should decide who or what represents us, not the TWU and IAM.  We, the members of the unions, should decide on this alliance.  The internationals should not decide for us.  We are basically being given the choice between an alliance that the majority do not want or no union.  What Bob is saying is true.

If the majority doesn't want it, as you say, then it would be easy to get enough cards signed to have another option on the ballot. So go get it. Stop complaining, get the comfortable shoes and get your cards signed.

Don't waste the time complaining, go get it done. The dispatchers are doing it....go at it.

 

[Bob Owens]

WEAASLES


What are you talking about? How can there not be a majority unless 6487 vote for the association and 6487 vote no union. Do you think it's going to be a tie?
 
 What if 6487 throw out their ballotts and the rest are split between the two options offered? 


Because your leaders and the leaders of the IAM opted to have an association rather than fighting with each other over members.
 
Exactly, so because neither of them are willing to put the cause of labor ahead of their own Treasuries we have to suffer the abomination of an Association.
 
Some of which may have proffered not to. Speaking on the IAM side of those members maybe they don't want there pension frozen if it went to the TWU? Ever think about that side of things Bob? Maybe some people are smartening up and realizing that unions need to stop fighting each other and get on the same page? 
 
So you envision a JCBA where some have a union sponsored DB pension and others a 401K match? What happens to those people who transfer or are laid off? No problem with Unions working together, in fact i think we should, but this is just a business arrangement, not an exercise in cooperative resistance against the company or furthering the interests of working people 
 

Nice to see a strong union man such as yourself touting up the benefits of being non union. What the hell happened to you?
Sad when Union membership becomes a liability. When Union membership results in compensation and benefits that are lower than non-union something has gone horribly wrong with that Union. 
 

 
 
 

I'm not supporting this out of fear. I'm supporting this because I have a brain in my head. I 100% believe that together we will be a lot stronger than standing apart from our Union counterparts. The IAM is NOT my enemy Bob. Do you have any clue who your real enemies are?
I believe the objective of the enemies of labor are to divide and conquer, this has division built in place. If the two Unions do not want to fight over us then put us completely into an association and let us formulate the bylaws etc and have all the dues revenue. What this is about is retaining the dues. 
You never answered my question, how are the non-cast ballotts factored in?  

That's not up to you whether anyone tries to back out or not. That's way above your pay grade. And I love that idea, sue. Yea let's keep the wonderful union to union fighting going while Corporate America and their pocket Politicians keep kicking our asses. That's thinking with the old noodle.
 
 So you are saying that they are not answerable to us? Who works for whom here? They want to put us in a structure that come permanently divided and  will never be a competent fighting force against the company. its hard enough to fix one dysfunctional Union, let alone two. these two unions have destroyed our profession yet you want to trust them with what they have proposed to force us into? have to read the alliance agreement? It officially strips the locals of any power and funnels it all to not just one person outside of electoral accountability of the members but two in two separate organizations.
 
 If they don't want to fight over us why don't they simply merge? Don't you agree that real consolidation and not weak associations are whats needed to take on corporations and politicians? They don't want to do anything that upsets their status quo is why, leave all the painful but necessary changes for the members. 
 
I've said it before, don't split up class and craft, if they don't want to fight then divy up by class and craft, but we do not want to see our class and craft split up. 

Do what you want to do. No one is forcing your hand to that paper brother. I used to think you had an open mind. I guess I was wrong.
I have an open mind, but I can see a scam when its put in front of me. This whole deal was cooked up by Little and his counterpart at the IAM, its not about what is best for the membership, its about what is best for them. If you want to believe the sales pitch by guys who are simply trying to save their own positions, as Gless was when he participated in this go ahead, but the fact is the TWU cleaned house, the people the Association were supposed to save are gone, that's not the case with the IAM, they are all still there and doing their best to sell this crap to keep their positions. 

 

[Bob Owens]

Bob let me ask you a question. Have you even talked to any people from the IAM recently? Yea I know all about the past issues. Maybe it's time to let them rest?

No, all I have to do is read the Alliance agreement. it says enough. 
 
We need "One Union, One Voice" 
 

How about a new slogan. "Two Unions, One Bigger voice" How about that?
 

 
No, because its a lie, its two Unions splitting up the same amount of members, its structure is based upon division. The "voice" wouldnt be bigger, it would be just like the company wants it, divided into two. 

 

[WeAAsles]

The point is that we should decide who or what represents us, not the TWU and IAM.  We, the members of the unions, should decide on this alliance.  The internationals should not decide for us.  We are basically being given the choice between an alliance that the majority do not want or no union.  What Bob is saying is true.  

You don't want the alliance because it's NEW to you. People really don't like change otherwise (honestly) you guys would have gotten in AMFA 15 years ago. The merger itself is coming with a ton of changes whether we like them or not.

I'm really wondering how many people who don't want this have even really thought about it? I mean at least even looked at the IAM website. Picked up the phone and called one of their offices to ask questions?

Sometimes this really sounds like the kid who hates asparagus before he even tasted it.

 

[Bob Owens]

You don't want the alliance because it's NEW to you. People really don't like change otherwise (honestly) you guys would have gotten in AMFA 15 years ago. The merger itself is coming with a ton of changes whether we like them or not.

I'm really wondering how many people who don't want this have even really thought about it? I mean at least even looked at the IAM website. Picked up the phone and called one of their offices to ask questions?

Sometimes this really sounds like the kid who hates asparagus before he even tasted it.

You really dont know me. I have no problem with change, in fact I push for and advocate it. If the IAM and TWU said they were merging I'd be ok with that. If they said you take M&R and we will take Fleet , I'd be ok with that as well, both options would be NEW to me, but splitting up the class and craft between two unions is unacceptable. There is zero benefit to that. This Alliance is not about us, its about them, its a business decision, not driven by Union idealism but saving positions in the respective unions. Like I said, we already cleaned house, the reason for the Alliance is gone. If it was about Unionism they would not try and split the baby. Like the true mother they would allow us to stay as one than each take half. 
 
C'mon man, you are the one who cited that Gless took part in this, the same guy who testified before Congress to not impose duty time limits on mechanics and to allow mechanics onto the line with ZERO experience. Surely that in itself should make you cautious as to the motives behind this alliance BS. If they want an alliance then form one that leaves the class and crafts unified within one or the other Unions, not split. 
 
So tell us how being divided between two different Unions in a structure that removes all self governance from the members benefits us. 
 
I dont have to taste a turd to know i don't want to eat it, and this deal stinks.

 

[WeAAsles]

 
WEAASLES


What are you talking about? How can there not be a majority unless 6487 vote for the association and 6487 vote no union. Do you think it's going to be a tie?
 
 What if 6487 throw out their ballotts and the rest are split between the two options offered? 

Majority wins even if that majority is incredibly small. And yes if the association is voted in by a very tiny amount of members they're going to have there work cut out for them to win you over.

Didn't you say only recently how you liked Harry Lombardo? I bet he had to say something to win you over?


Because your leaders and the leaders of the IAM opted to have an association rather than fighting with each other over members.
 
Exactly, so because neither of them are willing to put the cause of labor ahead of their own Treasuries we have to suffer the abomination of an Association.

How do you really know that it's going to be an abomination if it doesn't even exist yet? A few years down the line you MAY be saying it's the smartest thing we ever did?
 
Some of which may have proffered not to. Speaking on the IAM side of those members maybe they don't want there pension frozen if it went to the TWU? Ever think about that side of things Bob? Maybe some people are smartening up and realizing that unions need to stop fighting each other and get on the same page? 
 
So you envision a JCBA where some have a union sponsored DB pension and others a 401K match? What happens to those people who transfer or are laid off? No problem with Unions working together, in fact i think we should, but this is just a business arrangement, not an exercise in cooperative resistance against the company or furthering the interests of working people 

Bob all of that is in the Q and A on the association. I know you read it. And maybe it is a business arrangement right now but it might also grow? The TWU and IAM represent a whole hell of a lot of people in the airlines. And they just signed up two more.
 

Nice to see a strong union man such as yourself touting up the benefits of being non union. What the hell happened to you?
Sad when Union membership becomes a liability. When Union membership results in compensation and benefits that are lower than non-union something has gone horribly wrong with that Union. 

Prove that to me in pay, benefits and JOBS. Give me the shop, the rates and the percentage of people who are making those rates. Yes I know you mean Delta. And give me some other places as well while you're at it.
 

 
 
 

I'm not supporting this out of fear. I'm supporting this because I have a brain in my head. I 100% believe that together we will be a lot stronger than standing apart from our Union counterparts. The IAM is NOT my enemy Bob. Do you have any clue who your real enemies are?
I believe the objective of the enemies of labor are to divide and conquer, this has division built in place. If the two Unions do not want to fight over us then put us completely into an association and let us formulate the bylaws etc and have all the dues revenue. What this is about is retaining the dues. 
You never answered my question, how are the non-cast ballotts factored in?

I hope that you're not going to give me some kind of conspiracy theory that non cast ballots are counted as yes by the NMB. If there is ANYONE out there who knows how that works it would be you.

That's not up to you whether anyone tries to back out or not. That's way above your pay grade. And I love that idea, sue. Yea let's keep the wonderful union to union fighting going while Corporate America and their pocket Politicians keep kicking our asses. That's thinking with the old noodle.
 
 So you are saying that they are not answerable to us? Who works for whom here? They want to put us in a structure that come permanently divided and  will never be a competent fighting force against the company. its hard enough to fix one dysfunctional Union, let alone two. these two unions have destroyed our profession yet you want to trust them with what they have proposed to force us into? have to read the alliance agreement? It officially strips the locals of any power and funnels it all to not just one person outside of electoral accountability of the members but two in two separate organizations.

I never said that I liked every part of it and I didn't craft it. I also don't like that some people are going to be forced into a union that they don't really know or understand in some places. I would have proffered a better crafted document in regards to that.
 
 If they don't want to fight over us why don't they simply merge? Don't you agree that real consolidation and not weak associations are whats needed to take on corporations and politicians? They don't want to do anything that upsets their status quo is why, leave all the painful but necessary changes for the members. 

Why don't they merge? C'mon when you guys heard about the CWA deal that was going on you overthrew the Government. No one including you wants to lose a nice comfy leather chair. Yes that is true. They can have there chairs as long as I can still eat steak twice a week.
 
I've said it before, don't split up class and craft, if they don't want to fight then divy up by class and craft, but we do not want to see our class and craft split up. 

I've heard that rumor as well. So who gets who? Which one would you want and what happens to the people who don't want your choice?

Do what you want to do. No one is forcing your hand to that paper brother. I used to think you had an open mind. I guess I was wrong.
I have an open mind, but I can see a scam when its put in front of me. This whole deal was cooked up by Little and his counterpart at the IAM, its not about what is best for the membership, its about what is best for them. If you want to believe the sales pitch by guys who are simply trying to save their own positions, as Gless was when he participated in this go ahead, but the fact is the TWU cleaned house, the people the Association were supposed to save are gone, that's not the case with the IAM, they are all still there and doing their best to sell this crap to keep their positions. 

Alright so the TWU cleaned house as you say. And in your mind Jim Little left a nice mess behind right? So maybe there's too much of a mess in the house and we should burn the whole thing to the ground? That's what I'm hearing from you?

Whatever the new leaders in the TWU want to do that's up to them. That's well above my pay grade as well.
 

 

[La Li Lu Le Lo]

So you're telling me that you want to be an "At Will" employee who possibly lives in a "Right To Work" State?

Ok then go and find out what that really feels like then. Walk into your managers office, pull down your pants and bend over. Oh but make sure your shirt is still tucked in or he may fire you for not adhering to the new dress code.

Yes. Given the choice between a train wreck of a UNION like TWU and being an "At Will" employee I would choose "At Will"
 
In fact I made that very choice. When American Airlines shut my shop down in Tulsa, I did not even try to transfer to another station. I did try to go to another title group but that was only going to be until I got done with school (approx. 6 months). I had no intentions of staying long term.
 
I DO live in a Right To Work state, however airline UNIONS are immune to that as far as I know. So why even bring it up?
 
I think you will find if you pulled your pants down in front of a supervisor, UNION or not, you are going to get fired. I know UNION employees tend to think they are immune to getting fired, trust me, they are not.
 
I can honestly say I have more vacation time, more flexibility in hours, better hours (day shift), better days off (weekends), and make more money than I ever did with American Airlines... and it did not take me 9 years of steps to get there. I can even say I feel respected and valued, I never could say that, and never would be able to; working in a UNION where your biggest measure of success is your hire date..............