TWU and the Company reached a Tentative Agreement

[RUKDNME]

FWAA,

Since your so good with numbers. Why don't you include the cost of outsourcing when you compare aa's labor costs to another airline?

 

[comatose]

FWAA,

Since your so good with numbers. Why don't you include the cost of outsourcing when you compare aa's labor costs to another airline?

Spin master include relevant costs? Not gonna happen.

 

[FWAAA]

FWAA,

Since your so good with numbers. Why don't you include the cost of outsourcing when you compare aa's labor costs to another airline?

I did include it in my UA example. You must have missed it. The next to last paragraph - here it is again:

UA's maintenance materials and outside repairs line item did go from $560 million in 2002 to a whopping $881 million in 2005, reflecting the much higher outsourcing of overhaul. Even taking that into account, the UA reduction (netting the labor cost cuts and the increased expense for M&R) was 39%, still almost twice the cost cuts at AMR.

I did mention the increase of $321 million to UA's total M&R line item despite its smaller fleet in 2005 than in 2002. Sure, outsourced labor has a cost, but if it cost more than insourced labor, then the other airlines would be hiring thousands of A&P licensed AMTs to bring heavy overhaul back from Asia, El Salvador, Mexico and El Salvador. But they aren't.

 

[FWAAA]

True story:
Friend of mine who is line mechanic at AA in Denver rides the same crew bus as United guys. The United guys were complaining about all the cuts they took in BK and how bad it was. Friend of mine traded contract books with them (after 2003) and the United guys didn't complain anymore! Does this look to you like they took a worse beating than AA did? They kept their benefits intact for the most part where the TWU handed ours away. Benefits are part of our COMPENSATION. Losing a week's vacation is losing a week's pay. Losing 5 holidays is losing another week's pay. Higher medical is more lost pay. Lack of job protection, more lost pay. I could go on, but you must get my drift. Bottom line...... The United guys preferred their contract to AA's. Their's has gotten much better since and ours is getting even worse. Labor costs too high???? I go back to what Bob said. All we know is what other guys sell their labor to their airlines for. Also AA closed MCI and is closing AFW. I believe that is TWO bases, but if you don't believe me ask Bobby Gless. I'm sure his math skills were severly tested by his G.E.D. exam. Yes our pay went up very little every year. AA offered 1.5% raises out of the goodness of their hearts while they took millions in bonuses. Also I notice there is no mention by you or AA on how much money they got from charging people for bags. The truth is AA is now turning a profit and will get a considerable advantage with these new cuts. That is not what BK is supposed to be about. It's about evening the playing field.

My post was not limited to mechanics and the pain suffered by AA's AMTs; my post concerned the much smaller reduction in AMR's total labor costs, spread among all employees. Perhaps AA's AMTs suffered more than UA's AMTs. With your inferior representation by the worthless union, that's likely.

None of that changes the fact that Ch 11 permitted UA to cut its labor costs by double the percentage accomplished by AMR. That was the point of my post. I'm not assigning blame to anyone for that outcome - I'm certain that plenty of people here will assign the blame.

 

[Buck]

AA can't find anyone to do 777 heavies. Singapore told them "you get it when you get it". AA said we do them in 23 days. Singapore said too bad.

More to come.....

 

[amt66]

AA can't find anyone to do 777 heavies. Singapore told them "you get it when you get it". AA said we do them in 23 days. Singapore said too bad.

AA won't be able to find anyone that does the heavies like We do that is a fact. Once they go that way they lose all control not only time but in quality! It's unfortunate they are to stubborn to realize it. We have mechanics here that work for AAR and tell us the stories! Btw the other majors that get their work done at AAR demand that they have a&p's and as we all know there is a shortage.

More to come.....

 

[Birdman]

With your inferior representation by the worthless union, that's likely.

You keep getting away with these little jabs without rebuttal from the TWU. Perhaps they think your with the IBT and just kidding.

 

[RUKDNME]

I did include it in my UA example. You must have missed it. The next to last paragraph - here it is again:


I did mention the increase of $321 million to UA's total M&R line item despite its smaller fleet in 2005 than in 2002. Sure, outsourced labor has a cost, but if it cost more than insourced labor, then the other airlines would be hiring thousands of A&P licensed AMTs to bring heavy overhaul back from Asia, El Salvador, Mexico and El Salvador. But they aren't.

I'm throwing the bs card! You have no idea what other airlines spend to do the same work aa does or did in house.

 

[Hopeful]

Hopeful, is it really vengence you want or is the ability to provide for your family what you really desire?

Tell me....This last round of "talks" with the company, how much input were the line presidents able to give?

As for venegeance, nah, I don't want it at all. But I am correct in saying that for decades, what TUL wanted, TUL got....

Maintenance separated from line cargo many years ago. Now maybe we need to separate from OH.

If they can negotiate a better deal for themselves and better than the line, then so be it.

 

[AC Tynker]

All I can say is dont get sucked into that debate. Anyone can be replaced if cost is not a consideration. Much of what you are talking about is driven from fustration among those on the line that see their peers living fairly well while we struggle and fall way, way behind (back in 2002 we made as much as UPS, now they makes $57,000 more than we do). They fault Tulsa because Tulsa has traditionally driven both Negotiations, with their Roll Call Vote, and the Membership vote, with their 6000 members. However when looked at closly there have always been enough NO Votes out of Tulsa to reject any of those close contract had just those who didnt bother to vote on the line voted NO. In 1995 just the guys from New York that didnt vote could have changed the result had they all voted NO. Hopefully that was the past and enough in Tulsa continue to say NO to unreasonable concessions as they have the last two votes.

I do see your point as I hope I am guessing right and think you see mine. I didn't post that to debate it just throwing my opinion out there after doing extensive reading on aviation oriented sites and the way I see it going.

 

[AC Tynker]

• FEAR!
• DIVIDE!
• PANIC!
• LIES!

TWU SUCKS!

Nice, that's one of the many reasons aapitbull that I have addressed Informers Unprofessional actions while aspiring to be an elected official in what some of you hope is our future Union. We would go miles in negotiations or just trying to gain any kind of credibility as AMT Professionals with this kind of personality at the helm. A person with a true understanding of how a leader conducts his/her self might think about doing something like this and then reality sets in.

 

[aapitbull]

Nice, that's one of the many reasons aapitbull that I have addressed Informers Unprofessional actions while aspiring to be an elected official in what some of you hope is our future Union. We would go miles in negotiations or just trying to gain any kind of credibility as AMT Professionals with this kind of personality at the helm. A person with a true understanding of how a leader conducts his/her self might think about doing something like this and then reality sets in.

Believe me when I tell you that there are many in Tulsa who dislike me, being a leader always brings with it those who for whatever reason dislike you and the truth is it takes all kinds of folks to have a effective organization. If you search back in these forums on threads about the 2010 T/A you wil find me and informer going at it over his belief that he should vote yes and mine that we should vote no it is not personal, true leadership comes thru being able to build consenses where there is only divide. The perfect example is the IBT issue I could not be more opposed to it, quite frankly in my opinion we would all be better of with the twu than to join the IBT and believe me that is not easy for me to say because I cannot stand the TWU.

Now I know that sounds crazy but if you put aside your opinion for a second I will tell you why, you were just having a conversation with Bob Owens the President of 562 and as you know he has fought long and hard to try to get us a better deal if we go Teamsters that is all lost the N.Y.Teamsters Local has 9000 plus members in it and AA would have about 800 to join, well it is quite apparent that they would be less than ten percent of that local, which means it is very unlikely Bobby would ever be president and whoever is president will be making the appointments to BA {Business Agent} which does the day to day business with the company. Under this scenario there would be nobody with the resources of the Local and the abilty to print Vote no on TWU/IBT letterhead and distribute it.If that were the case It is very likely this thing would have already passed. You see both the TWU&IBT are top down organizations where the Intl is the supreme authority thru the years of AMFA drive the TWU has given the line seperate locals and we have taken them over and now we not the Intl control the line. You ask us to give up that hard fought right to control our own business and join a union the IBT that will take that away and throw us into locals we will never be able to be in control because we will be the minority, I am sorry but we will not let that happen we are willing to change to AMFA because it is a democracy we all can control, it is far from perfect but it is better than the TWU/IBT.

 

[AC Tynker]

I understand where you are coming from and can appreciate all that you put into your beliefs and convictions. Like I said I don't support IBT unless they were the representing Union if it came to a vote or even AMFA for that matter as hard as that was for me to type. I support whoever we have representing us, right wrong or indifferent just the way I am. With all that said I take leadership serious and everything I have posted about the fact is the way I feel (won't waste your time retyping everything. we wouldn't be having this interaction if you didn't know lol). In my previous post I was just quoting another example of Informers lack of what makes a good leader, nothing more nothing less.

 

[Raptorman49]

After seeing the attitudes in Tulsa (I've been here 27 years) I can't blame the line guys for wanting to separate. Did you forget that the 2010 offer gave the line $2.55 per hour while payin O/H a lump sum that amounted to about 1.5%? The line voted that one down too because it wasn't right. Sam Cirri, a fleet service clerk who's pay scale is at the top of the industry, has got you scared stupid and stupid is what stupid does. Whatever you do, don't accuse anyone else of selling out. You have sold out your entire profession with a yes vote. You are telling AA it is ok to pay us squat and deny us the benefits that other airlines enjoy. Heck we are denied benefits that fleet service and stores enjoy!!! It is wrong no matter which way you look. You stil have time to change your vote. Do it before it's too late Dan. I promise you will regret this if you vote yes and it passes. Me? I am stuck here until I am too old to get out of bed. 53 years old and college loans for three kids to pay off. That and social security when I am almost 68 (if it is still there). There are many more like me in the same situation. I would love to leave but the only company that hires old men seems to be AA. You will be forced to the hangar along with me and I hope you enjoy working afternoons for three months at a time and forced rotation. Lots more work rule changes that will destroy us. You have all the information right here. I challenge anyone to prove that I am not telling the truth. Sam Cirri and all other fleet service clerks have already grabbed their ankles and taken the deal. If he had any class at all he would not be telling you how to vote. What does he know about what we need as AMTs? I am not going to waste my time trying to convince you that you are making a mistake. Turn your back on your fellow AMTs, destroy our way of life, but don't try to justify your actions. I should have big out of Tulsa years ago. Too many short sighted people here. They are also easily scared and manipulated by the TWU. Bobby Gless, who never even graduated high school, tells us that we should vote yes. So he couldn't handle Algebra, but I am supposed to trust his judgement on a contract? I have spent way too much time arguing with you and I am going to stop now. You know deep down what the right thing to do is.

That's what I'm saying Tom everybodies situation is different, yours is very different than mine, this will be your last decent contract at AA after this one Tulsa will be a minority & they will get worse & worse, your screwed and that sucks but someone always wins & someone always loses in life, I'm gonna try to win one last time.

 

[Bob Owens]

I do see your point as I hope I am guessing right and think you see mine. I didn't post that to debate it just throwing my opinion out there after doing extensive reading on aviation oriented sites and the way I see it going.

And what is your approach in dealing with it, lower wages and benefits to the point its not worth working here anymore and fight to get as much as we can while we can?

Here's the thing. many of us forget that when we chose this profession we were willing to work for cooley wages in order to get the experience, sort of like the way a Doctor does residency. If those wages were all that we could ever expect most of us would have chosen another industry. The industry is running out of mechanics, twenty years ago the FAA issued around 20,000 original certificates a year to mechanics, now its around 6000, figure around 3000 A&Ps to cover General, Corporate and Commercial Aviation.
Much of what you are reading as far as trends is just a rewrite of what was written more than 20 years ago. Peoples Express outsourced all their maintenance, including Line, back in the 80s. The gap between what Butler Aviation paid and the majors, which were all around the same was not as big as the gap between what we are paid and what UPS is being paid. There are few things we can control, what we charge for our labor should be one of the things we can control. Working for much less than everyone else is not the right approach to financial security. AA hired you, so will somebody else, dont ever feel like AA has all the leverage, they have what we give them.