TWU and the Company reached a Tentative Agreement

[RUKDNME]

I believe that you are mistaken. LOM 20 has nothing to do with the 3 year wage adjustment. From the full-text LBO/TA:

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On which page is the wage adjustment limited to 5%? I don't see any mention of a 5% limit in Attachments 4.5 or 4.6 on pages 51-56.

My Bad! You are correct. I have a hard copy that i printed out on fri 7/13. lom 20 as of today is dfw title I Process improvement.

Attachment 4.5 – Industry Comparable Pay Rate Title I.

For AMT’s, Crew Chiefs, Tech Crew Chiefs and Inspectors: At [DOS]+36 months, a calculation will be made to determine the maximum regular hourly pay rate (i.e., base pay plus all relevant premiums) of the line mechanics at Delta, United, and US Airways in effect on that date. Those rates will then be averaged (arithmetic mean) and compared to the equivalent AMT rate at AA, including any coincidental structural increase (i.e., the annual 3.0% increase to base pay at 36 months). If AA’s maximum regular hourly pay rate is below the average, AMT’s will receive an increase equal to the differential between AA and the average. In combination, the scheduled structural increase and the supplemental structural increase to base pay will yield a maximum regular hourly pay rate that equals the average of the comparator airlines.

on my hard copy from 7/13 this sentence reads: If AA’s maximum regular hourly pay rate is below the average, AMT’s will receive an increase equal to the differential between AA and the average, up to a maximum of 5% of AA's maximum regular hourly pay rate. I can scan copy of it and send it to you if needed.

 

[RUKDNME]

Please cut and paste the 5% cap language, I can't find it anywhere, or did you just make this up out of whole cloth?

I can send you a copy to!
VOTE NO!

 

[CMH_GSE]

My Bad! You are correct. I have a hard copy that i printed out on fri 7/13. lom 20 as of today is dfw title I Process improvement.

Attachment 4.5 – Industry Comparable Pay Rate Title I.

For AMT’s, Crew Chiefs, Tech Crew Chiefs and Inspectors: At [DOS]+36 months, a calculation will be made to determine the maximum regular hourly pay rate (i.e., base pay plus all relevant premiums) of the line mechanics at Delta, United, and US Airways in effect on that date. Those rates will then be averaged (arithmetic mean) and compared to the equivalent AMT rate at AA, including any coincidental structural increase (i.e., the annual 3.0% increase to base pay at 36 months). If AA’s maximum regular hourly pay rate is below the average, AMT’s will receive an increase equal to the differential between AA and the average. In combination, the scheduled structural increase and the supplemental structural increase to base pay will yield a maximum regular hourly pay rate that equals the average of the comparator airlines.

on my hard copy from 7/13 this sentence reads: If AA’s maximum regular hourly pay rate is below the average, AMT’s will receive an increase equal to the differential between AA and the average, up to a maximum of 5% of AA's maximum regular hourly pay rate. I can scan copy of it and send it to you if needed.

here is a copy of page 51, the 4.5 LOM :

Re: Industry Comparable Pay Rate Adjustment – Title I AMT

Dear Robert:

In the process of negotiating the agreement dated [DOS], and in the interest of reaching a consensual agreement, the parties recognized the potential need for a mid-term wage adjustment for Title I AMT’s, Therefore, we agreed as follows:

For AMT’s, Crew Chiefs, Tech Crew Chiefs and Inspectors: At [DOS]+36 months, a calculation will be made to determine the maximum regular hourly pay rate (i.e., base pay plus all relevant premiums) of the line mechanics at Delta, United, and US Airways in effect on that date. Those rates will then be averaged (arithmetic mean) and compared to the equivalent AMT rate at AA, including any coincidental structural increase (i.e., the annual 3.0% increase to base pay at 36 months). If AA’s maximum regular hourly pay rate is below the average, AMT’s will receive an increase equal to the differential between AA and the average. In combination, the scheduled structural increase and the supplemental structural increase to base pay will yield a maximum regular hourly pay rate that equals the average of the comparator airlines.

See attached example of the calculation.

For all other Classifications within Title I: At [DOS]+36 months, a calculation will be made to determine the percentage increase in the Bureau of Labor Statistics’ Employment Cost Index (seasonally adjusted Employment Cost Index for wages and salaries for all civilian workers, or "ECI") for the 36 month period beginning DOS. For each classification, if the percentage increase in the maximum base pay plus all relevant premiums as of [DOS]+36 has increased from their pay rate immediately prior to DOS at a rate less than ECI growth, then the employee will receive an increase sufficient such that the 36 month growth in maximum base pay plus all relevant premiums, including the increase, matches the growth rate of the ECI. For the purpose of this calculation, the most recent ECI at DOS and DOS+36 will be used.

here is a link to the 348 page pdf:
http://twu514.org/files/2012/07/MR-TA1.pdf


Not sure where you got the text you got, but that language is NO WHERE in the 348 page hard copy of the contract.

 

[TWU informer]

I can send you a copy to!
VOTE NO!

PM me
I will take a copy of that

Thanks

 

[Raptorman49]

here is a copy of page 51, the 4.5 LOM :

Re: Industry Comparable Pay Rate Adjustment – Title I AMT

Dear Robert:

In the process of negotiating the agreement dated [DOS], and in the interest of reaching a consensual agreement, the parties recognized the potential need for a mid-term wage adjustment for Title I AMT’s, Therefore, we agreed as follows:

For AMT’s, Crew Chiefs, Tech Crew Chiefs and Inspectors: At [DOS]+36 months, a calculation will be made to determine the maximum regular hourly pay rate (i.e., base pay plus all relevant premiums) of the line mechanics at Delta, United, and US Airways in effect on that date. Those rates will then be averaged (arithmetic mean) and compared to the equivalent AMT rate at AA, including any coincidental structural increase (i.e., the annual 3.0% increase to base pay at 36 months). If AA’s maximum regular hourly pay rate is below the average, AMT’s will receive an increase equal to the differential between AA and the average. In combination, the scheduled structural increase and the supplemental structural increase to base pay will yield a maximum regular hourly pay rate that equals the average of the comparator airlines.

See attached example of the calculation.

For all other Classifications within Title I: At [DOS]+36 months, a calculation will be made to determine the percentage increase in the Bureau of Labor Statistics’ Employment Cost Index (seasonally adjusted Employment Cost Index for wages and salaries for all civilian workers, or "ECI") for the 36 month period beginning DOS. For each classification, if the percentage increase in the maximum base pay plus all relevant premiums as of [DOS]+36 has increased from their pay rate immediately prior to DOS at a rate less than ECI growth, then the employee will receive an increase sufficient such that the 36 month growth in maximum base pay plus all relevant premiums, including the increase, matches the growth rate of the ECI. For the purpose of this calculation, the most recent ECI at DOS and DOS+36 will be used.

here is a link to the 348 page pdf:
http://twu514.org/fi...2/07/MR-TA1.pdf


Not sure where you got the text you got, but that language is NO WHERE in the 348 page hard copy of the contract.

There is no longer a cap on the wage adjustment, that has been removed in this TA

 

[Bob Owens]

There is no longer a cap on the wage adjustment, that has been removed in this TA

Sure, because they figure that if we give this the other carriers will once again go into BK and lower their wages to ours once again.

By the way I dont consider it a TA since there was no real negotiating, this is an ultimatum.

 

[Bob Owens]

Because we are in BK and the law is on the side of the creditors, not the employees. The Company is being pushed by the creditors to cut costs so AA can pay on its debt. We are the lowest priority in the eyes of the BK law.

Yes, it totally sucks but its the truth.

The law is pretty much always on the side of the employers, so what should workers do simply roll over? No need to answer that, you already have on many occasions.

 

[Bob Owens]

I guess they forgot about the 6 BILLION in bank.

And the $75k that UAL offered in the buyout.

 

[Bob Owens]

I have talked to folks at work about the pros and cons of a yes or no vote. If you were hired in the mid 90's and have a family and a $1100 a month house payment. Why would you vote no? You go from a gross of around $6200 to $1474 on unemployment. How do you explain to your spouse that you voted down at least 15% on Principles. as many of you know that does not pay the bills. Only the top 1-2% here in Tulsa could make close to the amount they make now. After reality started to sit in after the last vote. I am hearing more folks say they are voting for it. How do you tell the genral public that you turned down $36 an hour for a general and $ 38 an hour if your a CC, Insp or a TCC. The public just thinks were being greedy. I will probably get slammed but I really dont care.

Simple, just show the public what other mechanics in this industry make. By the way its not a 15% raise, its a 15% increase on a portion of your pay, the base chart rate, so your pay would only go up aroound 12% over a 10 year period, you would still be getting paid less in 2016 than you were in 2003 in addition to losing most of your benefits and workrules.

Good luck telling the public you want to turn down 15%. The company can replace us that not a dream just a fact. MROs are poping up all over the place. We may all be working for one in the near future. If we even stay in this line of work.

Really? I've seen where at least one closed and read where others cant get mechanics. There's a shortage out there, and what really makes it remarkable is that there is a shortage in a recession. With the wages and terms offered by the ened of this contract you may be better off working for an MRO.

 

[Bob Owens]

I'll repeat my point, the likely merger with US Airways takes US Airways pay out of the average equation 3 years from now leaving only Delta and United.

This would result in a larger pay increase in year 3 than the contract language lays out in it's example.

Likely? Says who? The same "experts" who said the last two failed votes would pass?

Besides, if we do merge which document would prevail, the TWU concessions or IAM concessions? Another threat, another vote and the Wage adjustment would be gone. In fact they could even go after it before leaving BK.

One thing you left out is that now that its been established that a carrier can go into BK with tons of money, what do you think that management at the other carriers will do?

UALs contract becomes amendable in 2013, WNs is amendable next month. "Our Savior" USAIRWAYs still hasnt cut a deal with the mechanics they employ. So why wouldnt they simply drag out negotiations for three years then file, citing that they cant compete with the much larger AA-USAIR combination that pays much lower wages?

Think for a minute about that. Strike 6 year deals, drag out Section 6 for four years then spend 18 months in C-11. Even our advisors and lawyers would benefit from such a scenario where every ten years or so carriers, even profitable ones, negoatiate all their labor deals through C-11. Bankruptcy pays lawyers very well and such a precident would mean steady work for those who make a living doing this. We are the test case. nobody got concessions from workers who were already at the bottom and nobody enetered C-11 with over $billion in the bank and 500 new airplanes on order. We need to say NO, this was not the intent of C-11.

Or are you banking on the fact that our peers at other carriers are willing to fight and we can ride on their coattails as we have been for the last 30 years?

 

[Bob Owens]

My Bad! You are correct. I have a hard copy that i printed out on fri 7/13. lom 20 as of today is dfw title I Process improvement.

Attachment 4.5 – Industry Comparable Pay Rate Title I.

For AMT’s, Crew Chiefs, Tech Crew Chiefs and Inspectors: At [DOS]+36 months, a calculation will be made to determine the maximum regular hourly pay rate (i.e., base pay plus all relevant premiums) of the line mechanics at Delta, United, and US Airways in effect on that date. Those rates will then be averaged (arithmetic mean) and compared to the equivalent AMT rate at AA, including any coincidental structural increase (i.e., the annual 3.0% increase to base pay at 36 months). If AA’s maximum regular hourly pay rate is below the average, AMT’s will receive an increase equal to the differential between AA and the average. In combination, the scheduled structural increase and the supplemental structural increase to base pay will yield a maximum regular hourly pay rate that equals the average of the comparator airlines.

on my hard copy from 7/13 this sentence reads: If AA’s maximum regular hourly pay rate is below the average, AMT’s will receive an increase equal to the differential between AA and the average, up to a maximum of 5% of AA's maximum regular hourly pay rate. I can scan copy of it and send it to you if needed.

Keep in mind that the adjustment does not address Holidays, Vacation, Sick time, IOD, medical benefits etc either, in other words even with the wage adjustment we would remain at the bottom of the industry, not at the average of the lowest. Holidays alone puts us at a $3000 disadvantage to UAL, over $5000 to UPS.

 

[Bob Owens]

AA-Industrty Side by side DOS 20 year line Mechanic
UPS WN B6 UA Alaska DL US AA MLBO AA Mar 22**
Annual wage $111,488 $92,602 $83,200 $79,872 $77,688 $77,854 $69,555 $70,928 69,222
Vac Value $10,720 $8,904 * $7,680 $7,468 $7,486 $5,350 $5,456 $5,325
Hol Value $6,432 $5,876 * $3,686 $4,482 $2,994 $2,407 $682 $665
SickPay $5,146 $4,273 $14,400 $3,686 $3,585 $1,492 $2,675 $1,364 $1,331
Total $133,787 $111,656 $97,600 $94,925 $93,224 $89,827 $79,988 $78,430 76,544.00


* Jet Blue Combines Holiday, Vacation and Sick

Sorry its hard to read, we should have a copy posted to our website shortly

 

[Raptorman49]

Keep in mind that the adjustment does not address Holidays, Vacation, Sick time, IOD, medical benefits etc either, in other words even with the wage adjustment we would remain at the bottom of the industry, not at the average of the lowest. Holidays alone puts us at a $3000 disadvantage to UAL, over $5000 to UPS.

Bob here is my question we the members have voted No on two contracts & it's been almost 4 years of negotiations, the members have done all they could do by voting No, it appears the negotiators aren't making it happen because we keep getting offered crap to vote on, I'm losing faith in my Negotiators to be honest, apparently the company is telling you guys to pound sand & has no plans on offering you the pay & Benefits we have lost to send to us for a vote, no wonder there are so many that want to bail out of here & have signed up for the package if the contract passes who wouldn't want to leave this crap.
I for one don't know if I will be voting no a third time, i'm ready to get some money & move on, I definitely don't have faith in cirri & Hewitt's abilities to negotiate contracts, We need someone like Burchette who is not timid but we don't have him.

I'm just getting very frustrated with all this & want it to be over one way or the other.

 

[Bob Owens]

I'm just getting very frustrated with all this & want it to be over one way or the other.

That appears to be the strategy of both the company and the International, wait us out and keep bringing back worse deals.

Thats why we must continue to VOTE NO. They dont have to live under this , We Do. Sure it would be great to put it behind us but not if it means 6 years where things will continue to get worse. Its not just the money, look at the workrules, some stations have already told their guys that if they want to bid certain shifts it wont be by seniority, it will be by qualifications, and they get to pick who gets qualified!!

Slowly the face of the Committee has changed, many of the Yes Voters are gone but we still need more changes. I cant figure out Tulsa though. The team thats in there now was against the 2010 TA but in favor of the LBO and the LBO2 or Modified LBO. Their number one issue was the 1/7th rule, we stuck with the bases on that even though nobody else in the industry has it. We spent around 6 months argueing for that, only to hear that once that issue was settled one of the Tulsa negotiators turned around and said "Well its time to get to the nut-cutting and there's going to be some hurt feelings around here". AFW never threw us under the Bus though so I dont regret supporting the issue since they felt strongly about it but I was hoping that they would support us in our objectives to at least get back what most of the industry never gave up. The Tulsa were the biggest opponents of taking things to the next step during negotiations, release, and even when the motion passed to ask for a release I knew the International would find a way to block it until they could force a revote when the numbers were in their favor, which is what they did.I dont think they understand Unionism and how things work. You get what you are willing to fight for. You guys really need to pick better leaders.

 

[TWU informer]

Bob here is my question we the members have voted No on two contracts & it's been almost 4 years of negotiations, the members have done all they could do by voting No, it appears the negotiators aren't making it happen because we keep getting offered crap to vote on, I'm losing faith in my Negotiators to be honest, apparently the company is telling you guys to pound sand & has no plans on offering you the pay & Benefits we have lost to send to us for a vote, no wonder there are so many that want to bail out of here & have signed up for the package if the contract passes who wouldn't want to leave this crap.
I for one don't know if I will be voting no a third time, i'm ready to get some money & move on, I definitely don't have faith in cirri & Hewitt's abilities to negotiate contracts, We need someone like Burchette who is not timid but we don't have him.

I'm just getting very frustrated with all this & want it to be over one way or the other.

Less than two hours ago you said the problem was the membership.
Now you indicate it is your negotiators.
Which is it?


And now the Teamsters button wearer caves in, takes his money and leaves the rest of us with 6 years of crap.