TWU and the Company reached a Tentative Agreement

[Tex-Mech]

[background=rgb(255, 255, 255)]When we struck, since I was a machinist prior to working at American, I got a job the next day as a QC inspector for $4.25 per hr (same salary I got working as a Licensed A&P at AA). I picketed every day after my work shift because I had a family and 2 kids to feed.

From the sound of your comments, I doubt either one of you participated in the strike, did you? You're both tough guys right?
Was it possible you were still in kindergarten or grade school at the time?

Now tell the truth, even if it hurts - we promise not to laugh.[/background]

There are only a handful of people on the seniority list who were working for the company during the last strike. The odds that someone with more than 43 years at this company would be on here pushing for a yes vote is slim to none, especially since you are of retirement age, and your pension will not be affected with a no vote. By now, living in Tulsa for all those years, you should be set for retirement and wouldn't be voting yes for the 401k match. So the most likely scenario is that you are lying and are retired already, and collect a international pension and are doing a real bad job trying to influence us.

 

[Bob Owens]

[background=white]Thought some of you older AMTs might appreciate this[/background]

[background=white]NEW YORK—American Airlines is celebrating the seven-decade service of a New York mechanic who turns 87 next month and has no plans to retire.[/background]

[background=white]Azriel "Al" Blackman was 16 when he started as an apprentice mechanic in July of 1942, long before bag fees, airport security or even the introduction of the jet engine. He was paid 50 cents an hour.[/background]
[background=white]Seventy years later, he still reports to work every day at American's aircraft maintenance hangar at John F. Kennedy International Airport.[/background]

[background=white]"I don't consider it work, really," Blackman said Wednesday. "If you like what you do, it's not work."[/background]
[background=white]The Fort Worth, Texas-based airline invited Blackman to ride on a vintage DC-3 to mark his anniversary with the company.[/background]

[background=white]The aircraft, the Flagship Detroit, is owned by a nonprofit foundation that has restored it to a historically accurate approximation of what it looked like when it was in passenger service for American from 1937 to 1947.[/background]
[background=white]Its 21 seats are smaller than 21st-century airline seats, and there are no overhead bins.[/background]
[background=white]Blackman sat in the cockpit as the plane swung around to lower Manhattan, up the Hudson River to the George Washington Bridge and back.[/background]

[background=white]Back on the ground, he said modern jet engines are more reliable than vintage engines like the DC-3's.[/background]
[background=white]"These leak oil all over the place," Blackman said. "When they're not leaking oil, it's not good. They're not running well."[/background]

[background=white]Mustachioed and dapper in his lime-green reflective vest with "crew chief" on the back, Blackman said the industry has changed over the years.[/background]

[background=white]"Today it's all money, banking, CPAs, computers," he said. "But I've yet to see a computer go out and fix anything that we broke.[/background]

[background=white]He shook his head when asked what advice he'd give to someone starting out in his line of work now.[/background]
[background=white]"Most of the big carriers have folded because they couldn't compete," Blackman said. "And those that are still in business outsource a good part of their work. It's tough to make a living in the business today."[/background]
[background=white]Blackman started working for American Export Airlines, which later merged into American. He was drafted into the Army and served two years in Korea, then returned to his mechanic's job in New York.[/background]

[background=white]He and his wife, Delores, had two children; she died last year.[/background]
[background=white]"My dear wife, when she was alive, she used to tell me, `Go to work, bum,'" he said. "`Go play with your friends.'"[/background]​

Al is a "No" vote. He thinks what the company is trying to push on us is a disgrace. If anything he was being diplomatic and polite since the company was throwing this big party for him. Its telling that his son didnt go into Aviation, he became a mechanic, but not for the Airlines, he works for the MTA.

 

[Tex-Mech]

Al is a "No" vote. He thinks what the company is trying to push on us is a disgrace. If anything he was being diplomatic and polite since the company was throwing this big party for him. Its telling that his son didnt go into Aviation, he became a mechanic, but not for the Airlines, he works for the MTA.

I wonder how many times he has heard the famous TWU saying of "we'll get them next time"?

 

[Bob Owens]

[background=rgb(255, 255, 255)]Realityck, why do you support the TWU? As an AMT, I’ve been through the struggle brought on by Deregulation that was introduced in 1978, whose full effect didn’t hit the airline unions until the early 1980’s. Although some members, as they do now, claimed it was all a farce and we should just strike and shut the company down, in 1983 the TWU’s membership in a +75% ratification vote, decided to deal realistically with the issues that threatened us all.[/background]

Hmm, and how much of a paycut did you take? Whats that, you didnt? Instead you sold out the newborn, changed the job, they would never have the same job you had, sure they would do the same work, just get paid less, have less vacation etc. Instead of a two year progression like you had the new guys would have a 12 year progression. Deal realistically you say? Thats not how everyone else in the industry did it even though what you guys did hurt their position at the table.

I firmly believe that the 2010 T/A which was recommended by the TWU, while not all we would have liked it to be, would have addressed some of the issues we needed corrected, and positioned us to fight another day.

Really, well tell us what would be the conditions under which you would fight? Look at what they are trying to take, if you wont fight now you will surely have an excuse next time as well. The fact is that we are at the bottom and they want more, more than any carrier gave in BK. BK is supposed to releive companies of "onerous" contracts that helped put the company in finincial distress. Do you beleieve that your bottom of the industry wages, bottom of the industry Vacation accrual, bottom of the industry sick accrual and bottom of the industry Holiday allowance caused AA finaicial distress? Do you feel that the fact that we only get time and a half while our peers can get doubletime put AA in financial distress? Do you feel that allowing the company to throw out all our OT rules will restore them to profitability? How about field trips, not only are we capped at time and a half, unlike UAL where they get 1.75 x for all hours away from station, but they want to be able to pull us off the clock for 7.5 hours and come back on straight time. hers how that works, lets say you report for work at 2pm and are told that they have an engine change field trip. (They want to be able to force as well) You fly there on straight time, and drop the engine with just two hours OT, so now its 12:30, but the new engine wont be there for a while, so they send you to a hotel, and tell you to come back 0930, even though your regular start time is 1400, you come back on straight time. OT, well they want to be able to call who ever they feel is "the most qualified for the job-direct quote from Evie. The 16 hour window is what they want, if they bypass you they get the right to bypass someone else by giving you the opportunity to work the OT within 60 days. They also want to be able to keep someone who started a job on the job for up to three hours and its not considered a bypass. Basically they can call who they want when they want. They want complete control of your lives, they want to run it like a non-unuion shop. they want to be able to pick who they train then require that you were trained in order to bid, a way around seniority. They can pick thier pets, give them training then arbitrarily require that training if you want to bid days or afternoons. Instead of simply posting the number of slots they need filled and then we bid where our seniority lands they would post bids that tell you what the qualifications are to bid such as : Days, 4 guys LMP on 777, 4 guys taxi on all fleets, etc etc. Read the language and then think about what they are really trying to do. You were here in 95, remember system attrition? That was nothing compared to what they are trying to do here.

Do I believe everything this or any other union does is above reproach, no. But neither do I believe jumping off a cliff just to prove you can, will do anything to enhance our careers and provide for the security of our families.

Jump off a cliff? You are already at the bottom of the industry, you already went off the cliff but you dont even realize it. Tell us how getting rid of System Protection, or in your case Station protection enhances security? If I were in ORD I'd be nervous because once the last guy with system protection leaves they can close the station, and lay off guys with system protection as well. Tell us how bottom of the industry pay and benefits and gutting our work rules will enhance your careers.

BTW, I walked the TWU picket line on the 21day strike in 69, and have been suspended for “alleged” job actions, so I have no problem with confrontations. What I do have a problem with is blindly following the pied pipers in our midst who preach the just say no theme without a clue as to how that’s going to drastically change the situation we’ve placed ourselves in by turning down the 2010 T/A.

Are you claiming that we would not be in BK if we had accepted the TA?

When we struck, since I was a machinist prior to working at American, I got a job the next day as a QC inspector for $4.25 per hr (same salary I got working as a Licensed A&P at AA). I picketed every day after my work shift because I had a family and 2 kids to feed.

From the sound of your comments, I doubt either one of you participated in the strike, did you? You're both tough guys right?
Was it possible you were still in kindergarten or grade school at the time?

Great, 40 years ago you did as you were told and followed guys on to the line, and youve probably been agreeable to give back for the last 30. Benidict Arnold once fought on the side of the Colonial Army, but its what he did later on that really counted. I suppose he too felt that he was dealing realistically with what was in front of him.

If management tells you to sign off an airplane that you do not feel is right you as an A&P mechanic are legally required to refuse, even if you are threatened with termination, if managment tells you to accept a contract that would damage the profession, as an A&P you are morally compelled to rejecty that offer as well. When we leave the profession we should try to leave it better than when we came in for the next guy. Voting in favor of degarding the profession is no different than being a scab. Dont you have any sense of pride and dignity in your profession?

 

[Bob Owens]

I wonder how many times he has heard the famous TWU saying of "we'll get them next time"?

Al, in a rare moment of negativity, has said to me that he would have preferred that they stay with the Union they had before the TWU.

 

[AC Tynker]

I think that sometimes, because many are hiding behind alias users, that we do not really even know who we are attacking and claiming they are the problem.

I have no idea, but I suspect that if we could all have open and honest debate with our true identities known, and we were not defending one of the competing unions, but instead looking to advance our profession we would be better off.

Seems the Pilots are able to debate serious issues, and then reach an outcome of direction, we are all too busy slamming each other and making things worse for ourselves.

Not you specifcally on this Buck, I am speaking in general terms.

LOL and you turn the Mudslinging FEAR machine off just like that. I read post after post of people behind their alias on here some expressing true concern in their own way of the What Ifs about all that we are going through and then to have your Awesome!! reply of "FEAR", "Industrial Union Instilled FEAR" etc etc page after page (quite sickening really). I would be willing to bet that all the years I took a break from this place there are a few thousand posts of different forms of your Unmatched Leadership Qualities as you argue, sling and just get down right obnoxious instead of trying to understand what the other person is trying to convey and then spamming the same online article or something that you feel was witty. As far as the FEAR thing, I would venture to guess yes alot of people are scared because they have families and financial obligations that have to be dealt with because real life does not allow calling a timeout while one tries to figure it all out. You have the perfect seniority as you have pointed out again and again and have not had to hit the street and travel the country chasing contract aircraft maint. job after job commuting back to your family when you can as alot of the people that would be directly affected by a minor hiccup in employment numbers at AA. In my opinion sure it is a chance you take in aviation when you turn wrenches on aircraft but the fact of someone that has volunteered themselves to be a leader as you have in your future aspirations to sit on here and berate, belittle antagonize and everything else YOU (not an Industrial unskilled Union) have done that is locked on the net forever to remind you and others what Great Qualities you possess is simply amazing. Then to top it off you just change oneday after someone points it out to you or whatever reason you had this epiphany I quoted above and think with the new you all is forgotten because this is the New You that is concerned about slamming eachother and making things worse for ourselves.

In my Opinion this epiphany of yours should have came to you years ago because your true colors are known by many especially Raptorman with the antics you displayed toward him Repeatedly! before and after he just asked you more than once to respect his opinion and drop your infantile tactics which I think may have helped you to try harder to antagonize for all to see.

Keep up the good work because in my opinion no collusion is needed to keep AMFA out they just need to make sure you have a keyboard and monitor for you to use.

Nothing Personal just an unsolicited view and opinion.

 

[TWU informer]

LOL and you turn the Mudslinging FEAR machine off just like that. I read post after post of people behind their alias on here some expressing true concern in their own way of the What Ifs about all that we are going through and then to have your Awesome!! reply of "FEAR", "Industrial Union Instilled FEAR" etc etc page after page (quite sickening really). I would be willing to bet that all the years I took a break from this place there are a few thousand posts of different forms of your Unmatched Leadership Qualities as you argue, sling and just get down right obnoxious instead of trying to understand what the other person is trying to convey and then spamming the same online article or something that you feel was witty. As far as the FEAR thing, I would venture to guess yes alot of people are scared because they have families and financial obligations that have to be dealt with because real life does not allow calling a timeout while one tries to figure it all out. You have the perfect seniority as you have pointed out again and again and have not had to hit the street and travel the country chasing contract aircraft maint. job after job commuting back to your family when you can as alot of the people that would be directly affected by a minor hiccup in employment numbers at AA. In my opinion sure it is a chance you take in aviation when you turn wrenches on aircraft but the fact of someone that has volunteered themselves to be a leader as you have in your future aspirations to sit on here and berate, belittle antagonize and everything else YOU (not an Industrial unskilled Union) have done that is locked on the net forever to remind you and others what Great Qualities you possess is simply amazing. Then to top it off you just change oneday after someone points it out to you or whatever reason you had this epiphany I quoted above and think with the new you all is forgotten because this is the New You that is concerned about slamming eachother and making things worse for ourselves.

In my Opinion this epiphany of yours should have came to you years ago because your true colors are known by many especially Raptorman with the antics you displayed toward him Repeatedly! before and after he just asked you more than once to respect his opinion and drop your infantile tactics which I think may have helped you to try harder to antagonize for all to see.

Keep up the good work because in my opinion no collusion is needed to keep AMFA out they just need to make sure you have a keyboard and monitor for you to use.

Nothing Personal just an unsolicited view and opinion.

Fair enough, can you produce a solution to our demise as well as you can analyze another human? My character flaws will be or already have been exposed over time just like others. I know them well and have lived with them for years now. I have even had discussions about my flaws with individuals that are more professional than you at identification and acceptance of those flaws so I already know them and have learned to not deny them. Changing them is more difficult.

But are we going to be laser focused on individuals and their flaws, or correcting our direction?

Give me your name and any past user I.D.s and if this is about character flaws, when I have time I will compete, but until then we need to come together on a solution and a change of direction that moves us forward not backwards.

I suppose I can figure that since you complain when my harsh side is exposed and now you complain when the softer side in posted, that you are a master at pointing out the character flaws of all other humans and instead of offering anything of substance towards to debate, you too are focused on the person instead of the meaning of the post.

What about your own? Ever work on them?

For years this board has been unmoderator as far as the way we discuss issues, I was treated just as harshly if not worse for advocating a yes vote on the 2010 T/A, I am particpating in this forum, not the creator of it. I am not whining about when my feelings get hurt, I am instead part of this internet forum. If we are now going to moderate the debate then I can change, but you cannot turn off years of bashing each other by stopping one guilty poster.

 

[AC Tynker]

Fair enough, can you produce a solution to our demise as well as you can analyze another human? My character flaws will be or leady have been exposed over time just like others.

But are we going to be laser focused on individuals and their flaws, or correcting our direction?

Hoping to help clean our image up on a forum by reminding people of net etiquette and just interest in what people around the AA system have to say or think is my only reason for being here. That is why I refuse to participate in the Representation focused discussions.

 

[TWU informer]

Hoping to help clean our image up on a forum by reminding people of net etiquette and just interest in what people around the AA system have to say or think is my only reason for being here. That is why I refuse to participate in the Representation focused discussions.

I see, and you should be able to stay real busy here.
It will be a better forum if you succeed.
Good luck!

We have gone mostly unmoderated for years as far as that goes. Once I know the rules, and everyone else is moderated, I can change.

Are you going to stick around a just "fix" me, or everyone else too?

 

[Raptorman49]

I for one very much like that Dave & hopefully others are trying to change to make everyone feel welcome to come to this forum & openly express their opinions, ill admit I didn't think some on here would be able to change, I am very glad to be wrong about that, one person can make a difference by setting the example for others to follow.

 

[Chuck Schalk]

How can anyone support this proposal that destroys our careers and it is a management contract not a union contract! The upfront pennies that are being put before us, people actually consider not bad. This is illogical thinking at its best. If you add up what we are giving up for those few upfront pennies you would realize it is insignificant and improportional by far. I can hear the "they can do that" all in this proposal due to very weak language. I guarantee that people are going to complain once the company implements the full force of this management contract. I will say "I warned you and told you so". How is it possible that a union can actually persuade us to vote for a management contract, I am baffled,confused, and still waiting for "fight like hell".
How can a union voluntarily vote away core union premium benefits? Pension,retiree medical,medical and language that will allow the company to violate seniority?
one last pet peeve, how can we vote on a proposal that does not have the full written text? (overtime and fiedl trip rules)

oh I forgot, we did it in 2003......how did that work out for us?

I make no guarantees about the outcome, but i can't vote all this away again and sleep at night knowing I just ruined my life voluntarily.

 

[dfw gen]

How can anyone support this proposal that destroys our careers and it is a management contract not a union contract! The upfront pennies that are being put before us, people actually consider not bad. This is illogical thinking at its best. If you add up what we are giving up for those few upfront pennies you would realize it is insignificant and improportional by far. I can hear the "they can do that" all in this proposal due to very weak language. I guarantee that people are going to complain once the company implements the full force of this management contract. I will say "I warned you and told you so". How is it possible that a union can actually persuade us to vote for a management contract, I am baffled,confused, and still waiting for "fight like hell".
How can a union voluntarily vote away core union premium benefits? Pension,retiree medical,medical and language that will allow the company to violate seniority?
one last pet peeve, how can we vote on a proposal that does not have the full written text? (overtime and fiedl trip rules)

oh I forgot, we did it in 2003......how did that work out for us?

I make no guarantees about the outcome, but i can't vote all this away again and sleep at night knowing I just ruined my life voluntarily.


i agree 100% even if this propsal had anything worth a s*it which it does not they gave the pilots time to clarify the language why not clarify our language. i will not vote yes on anything not written down yet.

 

[AC Tynker]

Like I typed Informer, nothing personal toward you. You are the one that put out there that you would be more than willing to be a leader and leaders are held to a higher standard and as Raptorman said setting an example for others to follow. Raptorman, Frank, Myself and others have made comments to several other members on here so I promise your not being singled out. If you take an honest look though of how Raptorman was treated for trying to just express his honest opinion and then followed through thread after thread on here constantly being badgered quite aggressively you will see why I typed my paragraph to you.

In all honesty Raptorman and I are at opposite ends of the spectrum on some of our convictions and opinions but after meeting him he seems to be the real deal. What you see is what you get, same in person as he is on here a real stand-up individual. We agree to disagree on things but totally agree on wanting to help make the AA section of this forum a decent place for people to interact without all the crap.

 

[Vortilon]

There are only a handful of people on the seniority list who were working for the company during the last strike. The odds that someone with more than 43 years at this company would be on here pushing for a yes vote is slim to none, especially since you are of retirement age, and your pension will not be affected with a no vote. By now, living in Tulsa for all those years, you should be set for retirement and wouldn't be voting yes for the 401k match. So the most likely scenario is that you are lying and are retired already, and collect a international pension and are doing a real bad job trying to influence us.

I will second that motion.....

 

[Raptorman49]

I think it would be great if everyone were the same behind a keyboard as they are in person, everyone I have met in person from the forum has been nice in person.
As AC Tynker commented we have different opinions on the issues & if you knew my situation compared to his that would make perfect sense, a persons situation makes a huge difference in how they see the issues, that's why we need to respect each others views & decisions, I'm learning a lot from meeting people in different situations lately

Oh & in my opinion I think its very unlikely that very many people if any at all are purposely lying or using multiple aliases, there's no point in it so I just don't believe its happening much, therefore I will not accuse someone of doing it unless I have proof beyond a doubt that they are doing it.
No one likes being called a liar or any other derogatory name.